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Old 18th September 2015, 23:32   #16
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Default Re: Remote Remaps - Droid Personal Flasher from Code6 Tuning

Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Since you are talking about checksums, I assume you are into computers. Flashing is a "full" bit-by-bit copy. Imagine cloning a disk using dd instead of copying files.
I am pretty sure the checksum won't be an issue. If there was some meadata about the ECU like modified time that is outside the ECU memory then it can be used to track the last change.
Manufacturers are skimping on carpets to hide damgling wires, I would like to believe that they won't spend on a memory to track ECU update timestamp.
Seems reasonable. Thanks for the explanation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
@mmridul
1) The remap when flashed back to stock is not noticeable by the technician who is scanning the vehicle to send the log to the manufacturer for warranty approval. The checksum cannot be detected by the dealer it is beyond their scope.

1.1) If the manufacturer wants to "scrutinise" the ECU then of course they can can find that it has been tampered with. This is not done usually unless there is a major warranty claim like a blown engine!

2) This device can do the first mapping itself. But the VW 1.5 and 1.6 TDI ECU needs to be unlocked before it can accept a remap. So for this the technician will need hands on access to it. For other ECUs that doesn't require this unlock (For eg: 1.3 multijets) everything can be done remotely.
That pretty much answers all my questions. Thank you.

If i may ask, what maps do u actively run most of the time, and whats your driving style like (highway or city). Looking to remap my car sometime next year, once it completes its first service, just in case something pops up before that.
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Old 20th September 2015, 09:38   #17
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Default Re: Remote Remaps - Droid Personal Flasher from Code6 Tuning

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Originally Posted by mmridul View Post
If i may ask, what maps do u actively run most of the time, and whats your driving style like (highway or city). Looking to remap my car sometime next year, once it completes its first service, just in case something pops up before that.
City roads 5 days a week mostly; 2 lane KL highways or 4 lane TN highways on weekends. On KL highways its mostly about midrange and on TN highways get to use the top end. I have the stock vw map, the std code6 map for this car and a custom code6 map on the device.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 08:03   #18
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Default Re: Remote Remaps - Droid Personal Flasher from Code6 Tuning

Mr Sanakar, There needs to be steady supply of voltage of 12 volts to the car when flashing what if during the course it drops below 12 volts as some cars when flashing ecu goes mad and runs fans at full speed and voltage would drop bricking the ecu and where can we get list of cars which this device supports.

Do code 6 remap the original file from the car or do they just send pre made one's. if they remap original files individually what precaution do they take where some cars like BMW read must be done in slow mode else while reading itself ecu may get bricked.

If ECU gets bricked due to one of above mentioned factors who is to bear responsibility as the poor buyer won't even know it was not his fault.

Also I would like to know what are the charges for just unlocking the ECU incase mine is locked.

Last edited by lillios : 23rd September 2015 at 08:07.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 10:38   #19
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Default Re: Remote Remaps - Droid Personal Flasher from Code6 Tuning

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Originally Posted by lillios View Post
If ECU gets bricked due to one of above mentioned factors who is to bear responsibility as the poor buyer won't even know it was not his fault.
I expect the "remote" author to "help" and own up the mistake and compensate. But in reality, we all know how this works.
Ultimately its the owner of the car who is responsible. If you brick the ECU well, you just have to buy a new one. Yes it will burn a hole in your pocket.

Think about it...
Putting a non-OEM version of Android OS on your phone can void your warranty. Car is much more complex and costly thing than a phone!

Last edited by freedom : 23rd September 2015 at 10:39.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 14:26   #20
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Default Re: Remote Remaps - Droid Personal Flasher from Code6 Tuning

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Originally Posted by freedom View Post
I expect the "remote" author to "help" and own up the mistake and compensate. But in reality, we all know how this works.
Ultimately its the owner of the car who is responsible. If you brick the ECU well, you just have to buy a new one. Yes it will burn a hole in your pocket.

Think about it...
Putting a non-OEM version of Android OS on your phone can void your warranty. Car is much more complex and costly thing than a phone!
If the Car gets bricked by the tuner while doing remap why should the customer pay from his pocket for the tuner's mistake. Considering how much it costs for tuning that is the reward which tuners get for remapping. high risk high reward. So its the tuner who has to bare the loss.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 14:37   #21
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Default Re: Remote Remaps - Droid Personal Flasher from Code6 Tuning

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Originally Posted by lillios View Post
If the Car gets bricked by the tuner while doing remap why should the customer pay from his pocket for the tuner's mistake. Considering how much it costs for tuning that is the reward which tuners get for remapping. high risk high reward. So its the tuner who has to bare the loss.
Ethically yes. But in real life that is not going to happen.

Also inthis case, the tuner is at a remote location. You don't even know his garage where you can go and protest. Thats why I hate "call centers".

Rather than me trying to pass judgments, I would rather have OP clear the air on this topic.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 15:06   #22
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Default Re: Remote Remaps - Droid Personal Flasher from Code6 Tuning

Quote:
Originally Posted by lillios View Post
Mr Sanakar, There needs to be steady supply of voltage of 12 volts to the car when flashing what if during the course it drops below 12 volts as some cars when flashing ecu goes mad and runs fans at full speed and voltage would drop bricking the ecu and where can we get list of cars which this device supports.

Do code 6 remap the original file from the car or do they just send pre made one's. if they remap original files individually what precaution do they take where some cars like BMW read must be done in slow mode else while reading itself ecu may get bricked.
ECU doesn't go mad when flashing if the owner follows the instructions. While working with this switch off everything including stereo, ac fan and cabin lights if you must. Original file is the file read from the car being remapped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
If you brick the ECU well, you just have to buy a new one. Yes it will burn a hole in your pocket.
If the ECU is bricked it can be recovered in almost all cases. But before using the flasher read the fine manual and follow instructions and it doesn't have to be bricked

Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Also inthis case, the tuner is at a remote location. You don't even know his garage where you can go and protest. Thats why I hate "call centers".
Trust me, they will not sell you this device over telephone or email even if you are willing to buy this over phone and ready to wire transfer the amount. They have no intention to sell this on the web either.

Just like the remaps, as in either the tuner visits you or you visit the tuner, the initial sale of this device would be like that to new customers. After all they can't trust the end user with this device as not everyone will be equally tech savvy and will need to be taught how to use it.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 15:14   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Ethically yes. But in real life that is not going to happen.

Also in this case, the tuner is at a remote location. You don't even know his garage where you can go and protest. Thats why I hate "call centers".

Rather than me trying to pass judgments, I would rather have OP clear the air on this topic.
First of all this thread is on Code6 anybody can goto their website to find location of their office or garage. We are not talking about some random olx add claiming to offer remote tuning service.

If any tuner screws up ECU and doesn't pay for it, ethically it will come to team bhp forum as we don't want others to suffer such fate. in such case the tuner who is reputed will change the Ecu else his business is gone.

I don't have anything against you mate. but since I my self remap my cars for personal use. I wanted to know how Code 6 deals with the various problems as in the case of remote tuning. so it would guide the forum members in getting full info in what they are getting into.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
ECU doesn't go mad when flashing if the owner follows the instructions. While working with this switch off everything including stereo, ac fan and cabin lights if you must. Original file is the file read from the car being remapped.

If the ECU is bricked it can be recovered in almost all cases. But before using the flasher read the fine manual and follow instructions and it doesn't have to be bricked

Trust me, they will not sell you this device over telephone or email even if you are willing to buy this over phone and ready to wire transfer the amount. They have no intention to sell this on the web either.

Just like the remaps, as in either the tuner visits you or you visit the tuner, the initial sale of this device would be like that to new customers. After all they can't trust the end user with this device as not everyone will be equally tech savvy and will need to be taught how to use it.
Thanks for valuable info. When I wrote my remapped file onto my mercedes it took 5 minutes for the whole time during the process my engine fan ran at full speed and my dash light told ecu problem and engine cooling off. I did the process as any tuner would do with ignition on and engine off. once the Ecu write process was complete the car became normal. if during that time had my 4 year old battery gone kaput I would have gone for a toss.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 23rd September 2015 at 15:32. Reason: Back to back posts merged. Please use the multi-quote feature (QUOTE +) to quote and respond to multiple posts.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 16:17   #24
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Default Re: Remote Remaps - Droid Personal Flasher from Code6 Tuning

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Originally Posted by lillios View Post
Thanks for valuable info. When I wrote my remapped file onto my mercedes it took 5 minutes for the whole time during the process my engine fan ran at full speed and my dash light told ecu problem and engine cooling off. I did the process as any tuner would do with ignition on and engine off. once the Ecu write process was complete the car became normal. if during that time had my 4 year old battery gone kaput I would have gone for a toss.
It takes around 5 minutes for the process to complete in my car also. I have done this at my home and by the side of the road after in between a highway run when engine was hot. Have also done multiple flashes done in between logging runs on the highway. Haven't noticed the fan coming on or a sudden voltage dip during these instances. Maybe different ECUs behave differently. Which was the ECU in your merc?
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Old 23rd September 2015, 21:59   #25
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Default Re: Remote Remaps - Droid Personal Flasher from Code6 Tuning

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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
It takes around 5 minutes for the process to complete in my car also. I have done this at my home and by the side of the road after in between a highway run when engine was hot. Have also done multiple flashes done in between logging runs on the highway. Haven't noticed the fan coming on or a sudden voltage dip during these instances. Maybe different ECUs behave differently. Which was the ECU in your merc?
My merc ECU is Bosch Edc 16c2
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Old 23rd September 2015, 22:29   #26
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Default Re: Remote Remaps - Droid Personal Flasher from Code6 Tuning

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Originally Posted by amritpal2489 View Post
Technology sure is changing.
Can anybody confirm if this thing works on our National Engine (Fiat 1.3 MJD) used in Ciaz???
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmridul View Post
@sankar, quick questions
1) Since you mention that warranty is such an important factor, is the remap not detectable at the workshop? (i.e. even when the stock map is loaded, doesn't the MD5/ SHA256 signature change to reflect the fact that the ECU has been tweaked/ played around with)
The national engine, FIAT 1.3 MJD has a counter, which increments with every flash. Unless there is code to reset this value, a remap is very easily traceable.
Remote Remaps - Droid Personal Flasher from Code6 Tuning-capture.png

Last edited by PatchyBoy : 23rd September 2015 at 22:36.
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Old 28th September 2015, 11:13   #27
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Just a peice of information on Remote Remap via cloud services and clearly a technical input from a nonIT person.

Iam on a board of angel invester for some startups.during last 2 years we have had about 9 startups come up with the services. And we have 2 ECU and Tuning experts on Technical Evaluation Board along with 3 people incharge of OEM Auto testing services.

Based on the below technical advice from our technical panel,we could not invest as the ROI is shaky and Risk Categorization was making it unfeasible due to OEM Auto warrenty rejection based on auto forensic patterning done by every Service Center,as these values are marked in logs and are self explanatory for any engine work to be done.This was confirmed by about 6 Car Mfg on about 52 models since 2012 manufactured vehicles.Below is a cut and paste of the inputs received. Sharing in good faith what could be shared without violating norms.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Every time a rewrite is done,this is marked by a counter update and a checksum rehash on EGCPL counter.There is also a register markup on FlashWrite TPNC running Flag.This is done on multiple register values based on manufacturer and model make.All of them are there on the Logs with obsifucated values.

Vehicles Makes :7
Vehicles Checked : 34
ECM Type Check :9
Muted Value Found : 32
Log Markup RIF : 32
Double Blind Check : 34
Protocol : IDZ1098

--------------------------------------------------------
Business Conclusion
-----------------------
It could not be done without the OEM finding out
It could not be done without it being registered in logs
Warrenty rejection was a 100% face as any L2 level esclation would be figured out
58 % chances of flashing rework due to inproper usage
97 % chances of being taken legal due to logistics involved in manpower & timeframe involved in evaluating,removing,sending,rework,refitting to recover bad flashing.
Loss of goodwill at intital stages requires physical involvment making Cloud Services futile
Entire Car Warrenty runs out of any Indian/Asian car
ROI based on the risk was making the project nonviable.

Candidate Project : 9
Decision : 8
Comment : One to revert back after rectification and pilot.It stands invalidated as they are dependent on German Gmbh for technical development.

Read and make own conclusion.

Admin I missed out to add another intresting aspect but could not edit the message, so kindly append it to the post if feasible.Being an old man everything is a effort in slowmotion :-)

In fact i missed out the most important survey done on above, i have a informatics on this but cannot upload for non disclosure reason.
This below report was the last nail on the coffin as it shows how risky the business portfolio could be based on failure & rework costs and efforts.This also shows a glaring points on how one could end up with a unuseable car till the unit is collected,analysed,rectified and refitted and monitored.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Demographics Checked : 9
Type : IOS,Android,Windows,Mac
Modus : Offline/Online
Mode : Mobile,Tablet,Laptop
Protection : No
Staging Area : Repeated : Onroad,Garage,Workshop
Business Zone Coverage : India,Malaysia,Singapore,Thailand,South Africa,Australia ( US & China Left due to legal non feasibility)
Sample Size : 95
Age Grouping : 22-68
Gender Ratio : 80M-20F ( NB-Random Selection +3.0008 Med)
Training : All 100% on all medium ( Video,Inperson,Telephonic,Manual)

Risk Grading ( % rounded ) :
Automechanics ( ITI/SCT Level ) : 10 % Flashing Error Rate : 100%
Academics (PHD/Mtech Auto/IT/Mechanics) : 20 % Flashing Error Rate : 100%
Enthusiasts & End User(Technical Graduates) : 50 % Flashing Error Rate : 89%
Other End User ( Non Technical Graduates ) 10% Flashing Error Rate : 100%
Tuners ( with training and non-acrd certifications ) 10% Flashing Error Rate : 74%

*18 Units have had damage due to improper use and had to be replaced by respective startup (5)
** These units are being looked into to classify as permanant damage or recovery glitches which can be rectified.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 5th October 2015 at 14:44.
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Old 5th October 2015, 12:59   #28
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Default Re: Remote Remaps - Droid Personal Flasher from Code6 Tuning

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Originally Posted by Vinay Stanley View Post
Admin I missed out to add another intresting aspect but could not edit the message, so kindly append it to the post if feasible.Being an old man everything is a effort in slowmotion :-)

In fact i missed out the most important survey done on above, i have a informatics on this but cannot upload for non disclosure reason.
This below report was the last nail on the coffin as it shows how risky the business portfolio could be based on failure & rework costs and efforts.This also shows a glaring points on how one could end up with a unuseable car till the unit is collected,analysed,rectified and refitted and monitored.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Demographics Checked : 9
Type : IOS,Android,Windows,Mac
Modus : Offline/Online
Mode : Mobile,Tablet,Laptop
Protection : No
Staging Area : Repeated : Onroad,Garage,Workshop
Business Zone Coverage : India,Malaysia,Singapore,Thailand,South Africa,Australia ( US & China Left due to legal non feasibility)
Sample Size : 95
Age Grouping : 22-68
Gender Ratio : 80M-20F ( NB-Random Selection +3.0008 Med)
Training : All 100% on all medium ( Video,Inperson,Telephonic,Manual)

Risk Grading ( % rounded ) :
Automechanics ( ITI/SCT Level ) : 10 % Flashing Error Rate : 100%
Academics (PHD/Mtech Auto/IT/Mechanics) : 20 % Flashing Error Rate : 100%
Enthusiasts & End User(Technical Graduates) : 50 % Flashing Error Rate : 89%
Other End User ( Non Technical Graduates ) 10% Flashing Error Rate : 100%
Tuners ( with training and non-acrd certifications ) 10% Flashing Error Rate : 74%

*18 Units have had damage due to improper use and had to be replaced by respective startup (5)
** These units are being looked into to classify as permanant damage or recovery glitches which can be rectified.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Basically what it that you are trying to convey.
Sorry for being a noob but i am not able to make our from your analysis.
Do you mean remote flashing of the ECU will be a highly risky and dangerous; i actually do not get your point from the report.
Also what if you reflash the stock map to the ECU and send it to the show room for warranty claims' e.g. to fix a bad fuel injector.
I cannot see any other parameters apart from the permanent flash count logged in the ECU that might help VW or another car maker know that the ECU was running a Remap.
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