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Old 1st August 2016, 12:20   #136
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

Congratulations Frank! Considering that the Brio is more fun to drive than the City, this swap makes the Brio a perfect hatch.

And not to mention, what you've done might end up raising the used car prices of the Brio in many places
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Old 2nd August 2016, 09:35   #137
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

Good Morning, everyone!
I have driven her for a good 300 km after the swap.
The 1.5 engine must have been in hibernation for a few months, because every time I drive her, she feels like a new car. The engine feels lighter, more free and very smooth-revving.


I am experimenting with the intake and exhaust a little bit, and I have removed the 'performance' exhaust from the car totally and am running on the stock exhaust as of now.

Also, I had impulsively ordered a Carbon Fibre Intake box. I was never keen on installing but it was lying with me and I was tempted to see how good or how bad it was.
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LET ME BUST ONE MORE MYTH! A 'cold' air intake DOESN'T improve the performance of an engine unless the length, size, pipe turns etc have been scientifically measured. Invariably, you end up either starving the engine of cold air, or sending gobs of hot air to it. The engine loves cold air because there is a lot of oxygen in it and it aids in combustion. The moment you start supplying warm'er' air to it, or supplying lesser volume of air, the Mass Air Flow sensor (or equivalent) starts detecting a variation and compensates performance accordingly. UNLESS an intake has been designed for your engine, you WILL end up with a dip in performance. You may have a small peak at some RPM levels, but invariably, you will suffer.
I have driven 45 km with the intake. Nothing could cement the above better than my own car. With the stock intake, my car was driving so well. Uniform performance at all rev levels. The moment this exhaust went in, the car started feeling heavy at low RPMs. Started getting bogged down in traffic. Intake temperature in traffic went up to 60 degrees (OBD) and overall, the car felt like it had lost a few bee ech pees.

MORAL of the story: DO NOT MESS WITH THE INTAKE AND EXHAUST of your car engine. They are the key links that can make or break it's performance.




Coming to the exhaust aspect. The sports exhaust is out and the restrictive, stock exhaust is back on. 2 people might thank me for this. NATURE, because both the cats are back on, and my wife, because the car now feels super refined. You can hear the engine, it's every note and the rasp of the engine at good revs when the VTEC kicks in (yes, I can feel it in the 1.5 engine. I NEVER felt it in the 1.2)


RANT
I would like to make a point here. I NEVER made a project car to win drag races, make doughnuts on the road or to do handbrake turns. The damn reason why I swapped my 1.2 engine was to enjoy the refinement of a smooth, road legal (well, almost) refined car that feels like it did, before the swap, but has performance on tap. This car is driven every day, and in excruciating traffic as well as the highway. All cars feel ok on the highway, but if the car feels tiresome to drive in traffic, or sounds like a tractor or gives you vibes through the gear lever and ABC pedals, fatigue kicks in. Most engine swaps are done for performance and they don't focus on low RPM power delivery or driveability of the car. High RPM delivery in these 'swapped' cars is highest priority and they may be slightly difficult to drive in the city. My aim was to complete a swap where the car drives AS GOOD or BETTER in traffic and low speed situations. I wanted to eliminate all flat spots. I wanted power on demand, and not necessarily at the higher echelons of the rev range.
TO be honest, THAT is where I feel this engine swap has succeeded. Actually, it has ACED that aspect. The car is super responsive at lower revs. Highly tractable in all gears. 2nd and 3rd gears are the most used in the city, and most importantly, the car feels so sprightly and rewarding, even at 900-1000 rpm. I don't like to lug the engine but this car is spoiling me. I shift gears so quickly that I end up in 5th gear at 50 and I can potter around the city. Reach a speed breaker, brake a little and then pickup in 2nd gear. The feeling is unparalleled. Those who own a Brio (or maybe other Hondas) may associate with my comments. Low end is always the achilles heel of all Honda cars, and by transplanting a larger engine into a smaller car, I have eliminated that with all the torque available low down the rev range.
For all other occasions, the engine pulls cleanly to the top of the rev range, and the VTEC is really felt and heard. The small Brio feels like quite the star when pushed to its limits



I went to fuel up today and tanked up with Speed 97. I wish to run that for a few tank fulls to see how good or bad it feels.

The shocker here is this number. THIS IS A 1.5 ENGINE for God's sake! Just look!
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Whoever said that a larger engine will increase fuel consumption can come eat their own words!
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Old 2nd August 2016, 09:59   #138
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

Frank that piping for the cold air intake has almost a 180 degree bend, its so restrictive. No wonder you did not feel any benefits with it. If you maybe attach part of the piping to the throttle body, with a light bend and then mount the filter longitudinally, and then continue the piping on the other side to the front of the car the bends will be minimized. You will also then notice your engine becoming more free revving.

Also speed 97 on this, probably won't make any difference.

But kudos man, this swap was well planned out and well executed!

Last edited by Akshay1234 : 2nd August 2016 at 10:01.
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Old 2nd August 2016, 10:15   #139
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

Frank, thats a good observation with the custom intake issues and negatives. Did you have the intake pipe pointing towards the front grill for cold air intake? If yes, what I wanted to know is what did you do to prevent any water from getting sucked in especially while driving in rain?

Further, its good to see you expermenting further with your car to get it tuned up to your taste. Lot of people would feel you really could go bonkers with this engine swap, but you Sir, knew exactly what you wanted and have succeeded at it.
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Old 2nd August 2016, 10:31   #140
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akshay1234 View Post
Frank that piping for the cold air intake has almost a 180 degree bend, its so restrictive. No wonder you did not feel any benefits with it. If you maybe attach part of the piping to the throttle body, with a light bend and then mount the filter longitudinally, and then continue the piping on the other side to the front of the car the bends will be minimized. You will also then notice your engine becoming more free revving.

Also speed 97 on this, probably won't make any difference.

But kudos man, this swap was well planned out and well executed!
That 180 degree bend can't be avoided because the ECU is in the way.
The piping is not very rigid, so attaching part of it to the throttle body will not be very stable for the filter.
97 always makes a difference in my Polo. I don't know about this car!


Quote:
Originally Posted by SnS_12 View Post
Frank, thats a good observation with the custom intake issues and negatives. Did you have the intake pipe pointing towards the front grill for cold air intake? If yes, what I wanted to know is what did you do to prevent any water from getting sucked in especially while driving in rain?

Further, its good to see you expermenting further with your car to get it tuned up to your taste. Lot of people would feel you really could go bonkers with this engine swap, but you Sir, knew exactly what you wanted and have succeeded at it.
The pipe has now been re routed and is now no longer snaking to the radiator. It is now in a straight line near the filter itself. I will take a photo and show you.


Also, I am doing all these things because I am trying to adapt to the engine and experimenting to see what makes me the most comfortable.

I am going to remove the intake and get the stock air box into the car today.
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Old 2nd August 2016, 10:38   #141
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

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Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
That 180 degree bend can't be avoided because the ECU is in the way.
The piping is not very rigid, so attaching part of it to the throttle body will not be very stable for the filter.
97 always makes a difference in my Polo. I don't know about this car!
You can always get a pipe fabricated to make a bend of the throttle body, and then do as I had suggested. Depends how much you want to experiment (which I think is a lot).

On the Polo since its got a turbo, and is a higher compression engine it will make a difference with 97. This is relatively a simpler engine, lower compression, etc.
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Old 2nd August 2016, 11:33   #142
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

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Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
200 km with her, and I can't find a SINGLE point where I have felt something amiss. The car idles like a dream. The service manual says that she should idle between 700 and 750 rpm without AC and around 800-850 with the AC on. The car idles at her prescribed limits.
The engine is CREAMY SMOOTH. You can actually feel the wooly smooth engine rev to it's redline without any drama of sorts and driving her in the city is such a boon now. No bogging down, no lag, no fluctuating RPMs, no drop in power, no loss of torque, NOT a single drop in heartbeat. This swap feels as good as it would have been if it were out from the factory.
Beautiful work my friend , inside hood looks factory finish . I can see the work is a complete success based on your dad's approval an the way he enjoyed it . I currently drive a E-zen carbon as a daily drive which my dad thinks i drive a stock carbon with nice wheels & new paint job and nothing else , but now this has got me pondering for future project .

What future mods have you planned ? Wheels , exhaust , adjustable coil overs or just stock look stock sound daily drive .

BTW what app are you using in that above video ?

Last edited by Akshay1234 : 2nd August 2016 at 11:38. Reason: Removing the full quoted post, leaving only part of it
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Old 2nd August 2016, 12:39   #143
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
...

Also, I had impulsively ordered a Carbon Fibre Intake box. I was never keen on installing but it was lying with me and I was tempted to see how good or how bad it was.

LET ME BUST ONE MORE MYTH! A 'cold' air intake DOESN'T improve the performance of an engine unless the length, size, pipe turns etc have been scientifically measured. Invariably, you end up either starving the engine of cold air, or sending gobs of hot air to it. The engine loves cold air because there is a lot of oxygen in it and it aids in combustion. The moment you start supplying warm'er' air to it, or supplying lesser volume of air, the Mass Air Flow sensor (or equivalent) starts detecting a variation and compensates performance accordingly. UNLESS an intake has been designed for your engine, you WILL end up with a dip in performance. You may have a small peak at some RPM levels, but invariably, you will suffer.
I have driven 45 km with the intake. Nothing could cement the above better than my own car. With the stock intake, my car was driving so well. Uniform performance at all rev levels. The moment this exhaust went in, the car started feeling heavy at low RPMs. Started getting bogged down in traffic. Intake temperature in traffic went up to 60 degrees (OBD) and overall, the car felt like it had lost a few bee ech pees.

MORAL of the story: DO NOT MESS WITH THE INTAKE AND EXHAUST of your car engine. They are the key links that can make or break it's performance.
...
Frank,

the corrugated hose that feeds the air box is probably the source of the problem with the lack of air flow. The corrugations that allow the hose to bend easily also create an obstruction to the flow of air. I suggest you switch to a smooth hose or even try leaving out the hose.

Congratulations on the engine swap! We're all living vicariously through this thread
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Old 3rd August 2016, 07:24   #144
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

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Originally Posted by karizma9292 View Post
What future mods have you planned ? Wheels , exhaust , adjustable coil overs or just stock look stock sound daily drive .

BTW what app are you using in that above video ?
The future mods are related to audio now. After the ecu, I don't wish to put in big bucks on this car. The wheels and tires were already upgraded on the first day of purchasing the car. I don't believe in upgrading suspensions for an Indian car with these road conditions. It's just plain suicide. I don't want to ruin my ride or cause expensive aftermarket suspension components to break or fail. I drive 80 km a day and I feel the Honda suspension works well for me.
I might source brembo pads and get them installed soon. Just got them installed on my GT TSI and I'm very happy with them.

The app above is Torque Pro, running on my Android head unit in the car.
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Old 4th August 2016, 07:31   #145
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

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Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
Good Morning, everyone!
I have driven her for a good 300 km after the swap.
The 1.5 engine must have been in hibernation for a few months, because every time I drive her, she feels like a new car. The engine feels lighter, more free and very smooth-revving.
Wonderful. Great to see that you have been successfu in getting a swap that works like it's out of the factory. I just want to shoot out a open query that I have had since this swap. Assuming you have spent around 50K in total, wouldn't Honda be able to do the same much cheaper even for a limited run? If so, IMHO that a 1.5 Brio would be a terrific model like the GT is for the Polo. Even a premium of 50 - 75K on the current top of the line might find takers. But then they did not even plonk a 1.5 into the Jazz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
LET ME BUST ONE MORE MYTH! A 'cold' air intake DOESN'T improve the performance of an engine unless the length, size, pipe turns etc have been scientifically measured.
Length yes, I agree. I did have a situation where I had to go from a long intake to a short intake due to a brake booster being added in my 5 speed M800. The drop in lower end torque was quite significant.

Regarding hot air being sucked in, there are situations where the hot air aspect may be overcome by the volume of air being sucked in. Something I discovered when I used a Universal K&N filter in my Swift. I had a Racechip module an on it's highest setting the stock intake was so restrictive. The K&N universal make so much of a difference even though it was not a CAI setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
I would like to make a point here. I NEVER made a project car to win drag races, make doughnuts on the road or to do handbrake turns. The damn reason why I swapped my 1.2 engine was to enjoy the refinement of a smooth, road legal (well, almost) refined car that feels like it did, before the swap, but has performance on tap. This car is driven every day, and in excruciating traffic as well as the highway. All cars feel ok on the highway, but if the car feels tiresome to drive in traffic, or sounds like a tractor or gives you vibes through the gear lever and ABC pedals, fatigue kicks in. Most engine swaps are done for performance and they don't focus on low RPM power delivery or driveability of the car. High RPM delivery in these 'swapped' cars is highest priority and they may be slightly difficult to drive in the city. My aim was to complete a swap where the car drives AS GOOD or BETTER in traffic and low speed situations. I wanted to eliminate all flat spots. I wanted power on demand, and not necessarily at the higher echelons of the rev range.
TO be honest, THAT is where I feel this engine swap has succeeded. Actually, it has ACED that aspect. The car is super responsive at lower revs. Highly tractable in all gears. 2nd and 3rd gears are the most used in the city, and most importantly, the car feels so sprightly and rewarding, even at 900-1000 rpm. I don't like to lug the engine but this car is spoiling me. I shift gears so quickly that I end up in 5th gear at 50 and I can potter around the city. Reach a speed breaker, brake a little and then pickup in 2nd gear. The feeling is unparalleled. Those who own a Brio (or maybe other Hondas) may associate with my comments. Low end is always the achilles heel of all Honda cars, and by transplanting a larger engine into a smaller car, I have eliminated that with all the torque available low down the rev range.
For all other occasions, the engine pulls cleanly to the top of the rev range, and the VTEC is really felt and heard. The small Brio feels like quite the star when pushed to its limits
Couldn't have said this better. Exactly the same reason I like my Polo GT TDi. One of the best all rounders I have owned/driven so far. The points you have raised makes a daily driver so much more fun and pleasurable to own. And that too a petrol. From what I've read it's the 1.8 TSI that gives you a similar feeling.

Drive on,
Shibu.

Last edited by shibujp : 4th August 2016 at 07:33.
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Old 8th August 2016, 19:35   #146
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

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Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post

Good Morning, everyone!
I have driven her for a good 300 km after the swap.
The 1.5 engine must have been in hibernation for a few months, because every time I drive her, she feels like a new car. The engine feels lighter, more free and very smooth-revving.
It would be an understatement frankmehta if I posted this is mind-boggling swap

Everything about this swap is as close as it gets to perfection & professionalism I guess. I have not driven a Brio till date, but going by its size, I think this is quite a nimble hatch. And now with all that power, this is probably one of the fastest Brio in country !!

So who better now than you to share some differences between the GT TSI & the Brio 120 !! I know its not the most accurate of the comparisons or shootouts, but just some stark pointers will be interesting.
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Old 8th August 2016, 19:51   #147
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

WOW I am simply overjoyed. The country finally has a proper little hot hatch; something affordable (considering our average incomes etc), small enough to be a breeze in our narrow streets and tight traffic, and properly fast (or atleast the potential to be so). People no longer have to look at project Zens or Palio S10/GTXs. We all have a modern day option You have no idea how ecstatic your build has made me. Cheers to your Brio

Honestly, would your fuel consumption in regular city conditions and out on fast sections of the highway be less or even the same? Considering you no longer need to rev as hard or high to get moving in the city and you can sustain higher speeds at more relaxed revs on the highway? I remember how the shift from a 2l to a 2.4 liter engine in the Grand Vitara bumped up its fuel economy (albeit with the addition of variable valve timing). Also, those 10 second 0-100 timings are a bit sad considering the power to weight ratio that you're currently packing. I know it isn't all about outright numbers but surely an 8 second time ought to be manageable? Is the stock clutch upto the task?
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Old 9th August 2016, 08:13   #148
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

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Also, those 10 second 0-100 timings are a bit sad considering the power to weight ratio that you're currently packing. I know it isn't all about outright numbers but surely an 8 second time ought to be manageable? Is the stock clutch upto the task?
I think the 10 second time is because he wasn't really going for it. He did say he was going easy because of mild traffic. If that is the case, 0-100 in 10.3 sec is pretty damn good for a mild babied launch. An aggressive launch at 4000 rpm would surely bring it well below 10 seconds.
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Old 9th August 2016, 15:25   #149
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
WOW I am simply overjoyed. The country finally has a proper little hot hatch; something affordable (considering our average incomes etc), small enough to be a breeze in our narrow streets and tight traffic, and properly fast (or atleast the potential to be so). People no longer have to look at project Zens or Palio S10/GTXs. We all have a modern day option You have no idea how ecstatic your build has made me. Cheers to your Brio

Honestly, would your fuel consumption in regular city conditions and out on fast sections of the highway be less or even the same? Considering you no longer need to rev as hard or high to get moving in the city and you can sustain higher speeds at more relaxed revs on the highway? I remember how the shift from a 2l to a 2.4 liter engine in the Grand Vitara bumped up its fuel economy (albeit with the addition of variable valve timing). Also, those 10 second 0-100 timings are a bit sad considering the power to weight ratio that you're currently packing. I know it isn't all about outright numbers but surely an 8 second time ought to be manageable? Is the stock clutch upto the task?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nakul0888 View Post
I think the 10 second time is because he wasn't really going for it. He did say he was going easy because of mild traffic. If that is the case, 0-100 in 10.3 sec is pretty damn good for a mild babied launch. An aggressive launch at 4000 rpm would surely bring it well below 10 seconds.

We are currently running 1.2l injectors. The 1.5l injectors were not used to due harness mismatch.
Have decided to take the plunge and get the 1.5l injectors installed with a little modification to the connector plugs of my current harness. Not a biggie! I just hope the 1.5l injectors are larger and inject more fuel, and if that is the case, then I don't even need to mess around with an ECU or any wiring.
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Old 9th August 2016, 16:10   #150
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

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Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
We are currently running 1.2l injectors. The 1.5l injectors were not used to due harness mismatch.
Have decided to take the plunge and get the 1.5l injectors installed with a little modification to the connector plugs of my current harness. Not a biggie! I just hope the 1.5l injectors are larger and inject more fuel, and if that is the case, then I don't even need to mess around with an ECU or any wiring.
Will the fuel pump from the 1.2 supply enough fuel to match the larger fuel injectors?
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