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Old 11th August 2016, 13:14   #151
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

Hello, everyone!
I haven't updated anything major here because it has been a few days since we tinkered with the car. Till 2 days ago, that is!
The car was running the following configuration till the day before yesterday:

1.5 engine
1.2 fuel pump
1.2 coils
1.2 wiring
1.2 fuel injectors
1.2 fuel rail
Restrictive, Stock exhaust (not the Automech Free Flowing one)
1.2 everything else!

All these days, the car was running very well. Low end response was OUTSTANDING. The higher end was where the engine felt a little strained.
Revving all the way till the red-line made the engine sound labored after 5500 rpm and there was some resonance which made the doors vibrate. Somehow, it felt that the fueling to the engine was not optimal.
My doubt was confirmed by Karan Shah that fueling was indeed, not optimal when he asked me if the car had a specifically exaggerated low end and could up-shift to 5th gear even at 40 kmph without knocking.
When this happens, the engine is said to be running LEAN. Means, less fuel reaching the cylinders. That can be catastrophic when push comes to shove, and may lead to permanent engine damage to the pistons and walls of the engine. Also, when starved of oxygen, the engine runs hot.
In order to combat this, we had only one option- TO FUEL WELL.

There were two ways to look at it:
1. Upgrade the hardware (fuel pump, injectors, fuel rail)
2. Upgrade the software (ECU)

The hardware was the easiest option, as an upgrade to the ECU would mean wiring and I didn't want to explore that avenue as yet.
Also, the both of us were of the opinion that we should first try the 1.5 litre engine injectors as they were considerably bigger and had 6 nozzles as opposed to 4 on the 1.2 engine injectors. Larger injectors with more holes, means optimal fueling with proper atomization. We even had the 1.5 injectors lying around with us, and the reason why we hadn't used them was because they had different couplers.
We managed to fit the injectors and the fuel rail from the 1.5 engine without much fuss and we made sure we used the stock couplers, so we modified the wire from the ECU going to the injectors and rail. No biggie! The other good news was that the Honda 1.5 and 1.2 engines come with the same fuel pump motors. So that aspect was taken care of.
Fired up the engine late, the day before yesterday and the engine didn't crank! There was no fuel going into the cylinders. Either the injectors were not firing, or something else was wrong.
Karan Shah shut the bonnet and said he will work on it, the next day, that is yesterday.
The next day, he called me and said that the injectors were fine but they were very badly clogged. That could be because the new 1.5 engine was in hibernation for months. He cleaned them and fired up the engine. IT STARTED

There was some missing, which meant one of the injectors was still not not up to the mark, hence we replaced the injector with a brand new one.
Fired up the engine again, and the missing was gone. Took her for a spin. Refined! But some part of the lower end fluidity was missing. The lean running engine provided a lot of low-end, and I had to sacrifice that. For sure.

I thought it would be too big a price to pay, unless the dividends in the higher rev range were more rewarding.
Left Karan Shah's place and gunned the car the moment I hit open roads. MAN, oh MAN! It's a feeling I cannot describe in words. The car is a totally new animal. TORQUE steer in 2nd gear. Massive torque on the steering wheel. The car becomes difficult to control while accelerating through the gears. 2nd, 3rd, 4th, all are explosive. The engine comes into it's own after 3200 rpm. I can hear, feel, and experience the i-VTEC kicking in and doing some magic above this rev range.
On the other hand, if I am doing 60 in 5th gear, and I put my foot down, I now feel like I am driving a PROPER, BIG car! I am so happy with the results!

The ECU is stock. ENGINE IS STOCK! EVERYTHING IS STOCK! We are not running any jugaad, nothing that has been modified, nothing that is unreliable. No check engine lights, even! Perfect idle speed, absolutely rock solid performance at all parts of the rev range. EVERYTHING has fallen into place remarkably well.
As of now, I am running a car with bulletproof Honda reliability and unmodified, stock internals.

Next two steps are going to bring a smile to all your faces:
1. Borla Exhaust (on it's way)
2. Brembo Red Brake Pads (already arrived) to briddle all the extra power that the car is making.


Ah, now to just go down to the parking lot. AND FLY! Rinse, and repeat!



SPECIAL THANKS TO KARAN SHAH OF KS MOTORSPORT to make things look as easy as they seem. He's one Gem of a guy and his hunch and notion about things is far too deep-rooted and concrete for me to even argue with him.

NO more upgrades (is what all my threads end with...!)

Last edited by frankmehta : 11th August 2016 at 13:22.
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Old 12th August 2016, 23:29   #152
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

Quote:
Originally Posted by keroo1099 View Post
Superb, I can relate to the excitement and pleasure of a major modification going relatively smoothly. Reminds me so much of my 'madder' days when I plonked a 1600 into my 1000.

Hope the car keeps a constant grin plastered on you, and your better halfs face.
Eh? A 1000 is what? Are you referring to the first generation maruti esteem? Or a 1liter zen.

WRT the 1600 that went in: which vehicle was it from?
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Old 13th August 2016, 00:45   #153
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

Hi Frank,

W.R.T the minor things that you feel need improvement, I'm looking at it purely from a physical component point of view.

So:
  • Does the new engine ECU have a properly verified power supply, meaning no fluctuation at all loads viz. air cooler, AC, music whatever;
  • Is the grounding of the new ECU checked
  • Is the new ECU or its associated components close to any engine sections that get heated fast

ECU is a computer right?
  • So it needs proper cooling and air circulation; Both at cold starts and normal operating temperature;
  • It is also the biggest power consumer in the car after the AC; So please check if the wires are of proper gauge and its terminal connectors are properly fixed;
  • It's grounding has to be verifiably solid due to its power usage; Perhaps someone who knows a bit of auto electricals can advise on this one; There were one or two knowledgeable people on another thread the 1st gen honda owners one;

I feel the cost you were quoted for a remap are too high. Its basically creating a new look up table. Meaning if you encounter conditions in 1 st column for items in 2nd column, use the corresponding value in the 3 rd column.

Until now in the 3 rd column you were using x but now, due to the engine upgrade you have to use x + y or something.

Last edited by hangover : 13th August 2016 at 00:56.
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Old 13th August 2016, 07:07   #154
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hangover View Post
Eh? A 1000 is what? Are you referring to the first generation maruti esteem? Or a 1liter zen.

WRT the 1600 that went in: which vehicle was it from?
Yes, the first gen. Maruti Esteem. I don't remember exactly, but the block and head were from a 1600 Vitara and ran on twin carbs, Accel coil, ported/shaved, freeflow, etc. Gearbox was a mix and match of ratios from a 1000 and 1300 (the early Marutis were great for this).

Just like frankmehta I wanted it to be a daily drive, so was tuned for driveability. Ended up having an insane bottom end, and would pull cleanly in 5th from little over 1000 RPM. Didn't rev very high, but you you really didn't need to. Had to put in a Centerforce clutch to effectively use all that torque which it did and probably kept the stock driveshafts from giving up. Front and rear strut braces also helped keep the car together.

It really was a great city car.
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Old 16th August 2016, 10:03   #155
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hangover View Post
Hi Frank,

W.R.T the minor things that you feel need improvement, I'm looking at it purely from a physical component point of view. .....
Hi! The old ECU is also in the engine bay and will require to be present, if we are placing a piggyback. The MAIN ECU will still have to do the same job it's doing, but only the parameters being sent to it will be slightly modified by the piggyback, hence causing the engine to push that little bit more.

Also, it's not very easy to say x+y, because a lot of things change, when you just add a y to the x. It doesn't work that easy.


Long Weekend Update:
So we decided to test the Crio over larger distances and a longer periods of time since the car has performed stellarly over relatively short distances. The maximum I have driven her in a day is a 100 km.
We decided to test her over 350-400 km at sustained high speeds to check reliability and such. Hence I decided to drive her down to Pune for a weekend trip and back.
As expected with a stock engine, the car performed flawlessly. Climbed the ghats (steep, snaking inclines in Maharashtra are called ghats) with elan. I was surprised as to how she was doing high speeds without breaking a sweat. The engine didn't sound strained. Obliged me every single time I asked the engine for some power, be it in a leisurely manner, or in a manic, burst of power kind of way. This swap seems like it is a mature option for someone who is interested in keeping an engine stock, but adding a lot of versatility to the whole mix. The car performs very well in traffic and doesn't feel underpowered, or stifled or choked, as was the case with the 1.2. The 1.5 engine was ticking @ 3000 rpm between 100 and 120 kmph and when I asked more of it, the i-vtec would kick in and make the car accelerate in a manner that could (and did) surprise cars way bigger than the Crio.
The car delivered 13 kmpl because my journey also involved a lot of intra-city travel with 5 people on board
Also, we were stuck in an epic traffic jam for 1.5 hours on one of the inclines, so every time I had to stop and start and accelerate up the incline.


Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-20160815_0851411920x1440.jpg

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-20160812_1906571920x2560.jpg

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-20160812_1907061920x2560.jpg

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-20160812_1907011920x2560.jpg

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-20160812_1907211920x2560.jpg

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-20160812_1907281920x2560.jpg

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-20160812_1907341920x2560.jpg

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-20160815_0809041920x2560.jpg


In another set of positively awesome news, Karan Shah of KS Motorsport decided that my exhaust sounded very RICER. This offended me a lot, as throughout my sojourn modifying cars, I have made sure I don't do things that make the car any RICER. Classy, tasteful mods that add to the value of the car, and not detract from it or put anyone off.
This RICER remark took me aback, and I asked him to 'upgrade' me by a few echelons in the exhaust stakes.
PRESENTING TO YOU, The Borla Spitfire
Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-20160812_1512321920x2560.jpg

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-20160812_1512431920x2560.jpg

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-20160812_1512531920x2560.jpg

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-20160812_1513151920x2560.jpg

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-20160812_1513211920x2560.jpg

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-20160812_1513211920x2560.jpg

This Stainless steel polished muffler is SO eye-catching and superbly finished, that I was enamoured and bowled over the moment Karan removed it and gave it to me. It's something that would have pride of place as the center-piece of a museum, and it's ironical that it will be hidden under the car body and will be subjected to a lot of abuse in terms of heat and mud etc, but the beautiful stainless steel finish is to be experienced once!
Anyway, looks are secondary. I was a little skeptical as to how this exhaust will sound, because I was relatively happy with my muffler, and Karan's description of the expected sound output made the proposition a necessity.
Anyway, fired the engine for the first time and I swear, I was more nervous than I was after the engine transplant. After all, I was going to live with the sound and would have to put up with it through out the drive.
I kid you not, I had tears in my eyes when I started up the engine for the first time after installing the Borla Spitfire. The bass, the sheer timbre of the sound and spits, burbles, gurgles, woofs and barks of this exhaust make you realize how hard you have worked your entire life, and how amazing it is to be rewarded this way every single time you drive the car. It is a culmination of many feelings, rolled into two pipes of absolute motoring nirvana.
Exhaust gases and un-burnt fuel are very two dirty things, but when they exit your car with so much grace and style, they make you feel very special.
The exhaust note is very different from my earlier exhaust. The Borla Spitfire almost makes my true-born Jap into an Italian, at least in the way she sounds.
I am amazed at how happy a silly thing like a muffler makes you, but when you're driving Crio with 120 horses and that sound of sheer motoring heaven, emotions take over. EVERY SINGLE TIME!
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Old 16th August 2016, 17:18   #156
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
Exhaust gases and un-burnt fuel are very two dirty things, but when they exit your car with so much grace and style, they make you feel very special.
The exhaust note is very different from my earlier exhaust. The Borla Spitfire almost makes my true-born Jap into an Italian, at least in the way she sounds.
I am amazed at how happy a silly thing like a muffler makes you, but when you're driving Crio with 120 horses and that sound of sheer motoring heaven, emotions take over. EVERY SINGLE TIME!
Audio upload is a MUST! Words will never be able to describe what a Borla endcan on a Crio sounds like
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Old 17th August 2016, 20:11   #157
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

Nice upgrades. Now also do an engine oil flush and also a few tankfuls of petrol with System G/Adon P/Acetone. Should get the internals cleaned up nicely after a 1000km or so of spirited drives.
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Old 18th August 2016, 10:49   #158
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

Oh man how i envy your ride The term pocket rocket finally holds true for an Indian car. Love how you have kept it neat and clean. A proper sleeper to make jaws drop when the pedal is floored.

Good work and good luck
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Old 20th August 2016, 12:35   #159
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

Quote:
Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
Audio upload is a MUST! Words will never be able to describe what a Borla endcan on a Crio sounds like
I am very, very bad with recording audio. I'd actually like to blame my mobile phone microphones for this, but I've recorded with both phones. The thing is, I recorded it alone. I need someone to stand and record it, but this is the best I could collect, as of now.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2z...ew?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2...g1ZnI5aWpiMW1V (this is the induction noise of the cold air intake)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2...hmRUJLelpCUUI0 (this is how the exhaust sounds in a tunnel)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2...BicGhYRUViSUdF

Different Links taken with different recorder softwares and different phones.
Turn up your speakers, wear earphones or play it on your stereo systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortis View Post
Nice upgrades. Now also do an engine oil flush and also a few tankfuls of petrol with System G/Adon P/Acetone. Should get the internals cleaned up nicely after a 1000km or so of spirited drives.

I am going to do a system flush after I complete 2000 km on this oil (oil is expensive.)
I have already done 1500 km on the Crio and the new engine is more or less run in, now.


Further updates:

The smaller injectors and 1.2 engine rail is back on. It seems like the 1.2 ECU is not coping with the extra fueling from the larger injectors well, and I need to add the piggyback to the car if I want to take full advantage of the larger injectors. Which means that I may have to leave the car for a few days at KS Motorsport.
I am also a little deaf, due to the LOUD exhaust and since my wife drives this car and has equal spite for a loud exhaust, I may just eliminate the free flow exhaust and have the stock exhaust back on, with the Borla Endcan. Let's see how she sounds after that..

Last edited by frankmehta : 20th August 2016 at 12:40.
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Old 20th August 2016, 16:30   #160
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

If i remember correctly, FFE is by automech right? If so does it have the expansion chamber? In my swift i had it and with the remus it was ok but when i wanted to get a magnaflow can, the guys at N1 asked me to remove the expansion chamber and get a magnaflow premufller. Less noise that way.

Now it's just the FFE with a stock muffler though.
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Old 20th August 2016, 16:48   #161
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

Quote:
Originally Posted by deathwalkr View Post
If i remember correctly, FFE is by automech right? If so does it have the expansion chamber? In my swift i had it and with the remus it was ok but when i wanted to get a magnaflow can, the guys at N1 asked me to remove the expansion chamber and get a magnaflow premufller. Less noise that way.

Now it's just the FFE with a stock muffler though.
I'll check on that. I had fit the Automech exhaust to eliminate lag and improve the performance by a small margin, but the larger engine means I have enough performance, even with the stock exhaust.
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Old 20th August 2016, 16:50   #162
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Of course must be a hoot to drive. I can only think of initial d where they put in a rally car engine inside a Toyota hatchback
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Old 22nd August 2016, 11:29   #163
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

A new day, and some more modifications.
Whoever said that Hondas are cheap to own, need to look at this thread!

The Honda Brio comes with an *ultra* tiny boot measuring only 147 litres.
My wife and me both have a tendency to carry a lot of our consultation bags and paraphernalia in the boot, and adding any permanent member to the boot, like a subwoofer may end up using up precious real-estate.
The audio setup of this car was a very simple, basic one, and since the last 2 weeks, it was itching me (as is the case, always)

Now, the Crio has been a recipient to the most innovative of things, in her 1 year tenure with me. 10.1 inch Android tablet head unit, 1.5 litre engine, auto-dimming rear view mirror, and a few mods that haven't been documented.

I decided to give her something that has never been done (by me) before, as an experiment.
I am talking about a SPARE WHEEL SUBWOOFER.


It doesn't intrude into the boot, uses the cavity of the spare wheel as an enclosure and doesn't have a bearing on any boot space. Mounting it wouldn't be a big challenge, but making a subwoofer sound good would be a huge task, as a subwoofer is designed to work in a specified volume. The volume of the enclosure we would be using, would be a joke, but I thought it would be a great space-saving measure, with a little trade-off in sound quality.
I also asked my installer to damp the boot, so the area would be better insulated and serve multiple acoustic related purposes.

Here are the results.
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The sound quality has FAR exceeded my expectations!

I am not a bass-head but I do have a particular requirement. The lower frequencies of my music need to be played with authority and should complement the front speakers.
The subwoofer we used was the Soundstream PWX-T10, which is a shallow-mounted subwoofer.
The amp is question is a SoundGate (kicker OEM) amp serving 60 watts per channel.

The sound is OUTSTANDING! My car is now sounding leagues better than it did before, but the pleasure of not losing boot space overpowers all other feelings in this install.
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Old 27th August 2016, 00:07   #164
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

Frank Sir,

Awesome, awesome, awesome!

I have always loved the Brio, right since it was launched. But your Crio takes it to a new level altogether. Have been following your threads on this car and simply amazed by what you have done to her. The way you've sorted all the things is highly commendable.

She sounds ABSOLUTELY CRAZY! The exhaust note inside the tunnel and the intake roar are so tempting!

In a loss of words right now so won't say much. Only one word for your Sir: Respect!
And please, don't let go of this car ever, she's special!

Regards,
Neel

P.S.: The subwoofer looks really neat!
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Old 27th August 2016, 03:46   #165
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Yeah those esteems were very comfortable cars too. Due to their light weight they had serious advantages over other cars. Personally I toured Karnataka and Kerala state in the one dad had. This was a normal 1.3.

I've seen a few cars with raised suspensions with semi off road tires. Like jeep tires. Maybe that was a rally spec. car.

Many will recall the Nanjappa couple who won hundreds of two wheeler rallies. Then moved to esteem cars. And just continued the winning streak. That huge rear dicky was handy for carrying rally trophies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
I am very, very bad with recording audio. I'd actually like to blame my mobile phone microphones for this, but I've recorded with both phones. The thing is, I recorded it alone...
The sounds are quite superb. It may be louder inside but with my earphones it sounded sublime.

A mad idea to help in capturing more authentic sounds:
  • Get any old phone you have lying around or buy a cheap one for below 2k
  • Make sure it can record sounds and that you can download the file to your laptop
  • Switch on it's sound recorder
  • Tape it tightly to your air filter or top cover of the engine

That will give a more intimate soundtrack.

The name Crio - is it your wife's choice? If yes, it's a great name. Classic.

If it's your idea may I suggest a few other names. All are useless 2nd grade ones compared to Crio.

No harm in considering:
  1. Vindicator
  2. Interceptor
  3. Phantom Fury
  4. BriOH!
  5. Batman's other car
  6. Briosphere
  7. Brionic

There is a wicked thing you can do that was done by BMW. I don't remember which BMW version. It was a very powerful Limited edition.
Get this sticker printed and paste it at the top most part of your windshield. Or bonnet. It must read as - OIRB

When someone in a top end Panamera sees that in his rear view mirror it will read as BRIO.
He will start laughing at your little silver car.
You casually look at your watch, yawn as if bored, and just zoom past at Mach1.
Expect an ad in the next day's papers - one new Panamera for sale. Cheap. Half price. Owner moving to Fiji.

Last edited by Aditya : 28th August 2016 at 18:50. Reason: Back to back posts merged
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