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Old 27th August 2016, 09:26   #166
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

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Originally Posted by hangover View Post
Get this sticker printed and paste it at the top most part of your windshield. Or bonnet. It must read as - OIRB
Love your sense of humour.

I know you were not serious, but there is a technical problem with writing OIRB. It will not read as BRIO in the mirror; for that a mirror image of BRIO will have to printed on the front - like how AMBULANCE is written.

And Sir Frank - RESPECT

I've been following this thread since day one and it's great fun to read your exploits with CRIO. You may have just inspired me to do something similar with my Aspire, but maybe 5 years down the line.
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Old 28th August 2016, 23:46   #167
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

Hello Frank, your swap sounds very interesting. I am very curious what happens with RTO, and insurance company? I hear they are getting pretty tight these days on non standard modifications. The new proposed draft automotive law has some strong clauses on irregularities. Have you got this swap blessed by the RTO? Every time I have considered what you done, my mentor who is now touching 60 and seen many monsoons in his life warns me not to go this route. Courts these days are also giving previously unheard yet smart rulings on liabilities related to car and its ownership. I am assuming you can clarify what is the thinking you have put behind this aspect, do excuse me if I have missed some crutial step in the 12 pages gone by. I eagerly look forward to your sage enlightenment on what I have raised since I have never come as far as you, always stayed within the law as I understand it, thank you.

Last edited by canonball : 28th August 2016 at 23:50.
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Old 30th August 2016, 21:19   #168
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

Thanks for all the kind words, everyone!
The car has done almost 3000 km on the current configuration and every single drive gives me a reason to smile. The oodles of torque (yes, very unHonda like,) but then, 915 kgs and 100-odd bhp was always a recipe for something explosive!
The car is doing great, but one must remember that this engine is capable of over a 118 horses, and we are doing much lesser than that on the stock injectors and stock ECU.
This Friday, things are going to change. The engine feels a little starved for fuel at high revs and when we're making quick progress, not the extent of being under-powered, but I do feel a strain in the engine.
This weekend, we are getting LARGER 6-nozzle injectors and we are going to do the fueling via a Race Dynamics Powertronic Piggyback ECU with a custom map made for the Honda City by RD Karthik himself.
Once fueling is optimal, 0-100 runs and dyno runs will be the order of the day.
Quite excited to drop the car off in a couple of days!


In other news, you guys may be remembering, off the bat, that I own a base variant of the Honda Brio. The 'E' version skimps on a lot of features, but one, conspicuous by it's glaring omission is a Tachometer. Owning a car with a powerful engine and not knowing where it makes its best power is sacrilege. Hence, the other day, while browsing on AliExpress, I came across an interesting tool. It's called the AUTOOL. It connects via OBD port and rests on the dashboard quite inconspicuously, but visibility in the day and night are very good. It gives out a lot of useful statistics, and could be termed a poor man's head-up display, since it's mounted so close to the windscreen and doesn't encourage you to take your eyes of the road. Also note, that I do a have a HUGE 10.1 inch screen running my ODB via bluetooth, but that is pretty distracting as the eyes have to be taken off the road to read the bevy of information 'Torque,' throws up. The AUTOOL X50

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/New-A...696692576.html

is a very nifty, reasonably priced, and highly practical, safe and robust solution to display characteristics like coolant temperature, rpm, speed, real-time mileage consumption, ignition timing, etc. It also shows up error codes and DTC's if you have a check-engine light and allows you to clear them on the fly.

Here's a couple of photos and videos.





TopCarOBDSmartDigitalmeterAlarmFaultcodescanningclearanceWatertemperaturegaugedigitalvoltage.jpg_640

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-20160826_191149-copy.jpg

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-20160826_191249-copy.jpg

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-20160826_191305-copy.jpg




until the next post, folks.................
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Old 31st August 2016, 19:51   #169
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

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Originally Posted by canonball View Post
Have you got this swap blessed by the RTO? Every time I have considered what you done, my mentor who is now touching 60 and seen many monsoons in his life warns me not to go this route.
An engine or chassis replacement is not unusual. In Karnataka you have to fill out a form and submit it to the RTO. They will inspect the old engine and the new one.

A small fee of Rs. 50/-, and a small envelope with your contribution to his kids school fees and the RC will be updated.

The brief process can be seen on the RTO website: http://rto.kar.nic.in/alteration-proccss.html


All states will have similar rules. The only extra effort in this case would be to prove that the old engine is not usable. Replacing a few parts with condemned ones will convince the RTO. That, and your noble concern for children's education.
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Old 31st August 2016, 20:39   #170
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

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Originally Posted by hangover View Post
An engine or chassis replacement is not unusual. In Karnataka you have to fill out a form and submit it to the RTO. They will inspect the old engine and the new one.

A small fee of Rs. 50/-, and a small envelope with your contribution to his kids school fees and the RC will be updated.

The brief process can be seen on the RTO website: http://rto.kar.nic.in/alteration-proccss.html


All states will have similar rules. The only extra effort in this case would be to prove that the old engine is not usable. Replacing a few parts with condemned ones will convince the RTO. That, and your noble concern for children's education.
Yes Hangover I am aware, but my query above stems from both engines are the same cubic capacity? and follow the same part code from the manufacturer? 3rd party insurance is getting smarter at lightening speed these days. Not sure how the RTO looks at these details today, but they will catch up soon. These details are tending to catch up sooner than the child whose education is being subsidised gets to adulthood these days in our country therefore my concern.

Oh yes before I forget, the rot link you posted does not open. Frank has been silent on this so far, I wonder why. Anyway I think I have my answer and hope anyone who wishes to go down this path does so with FULL grip and awareness on the subject.

Last edited by canonball : 31st August 2016 at 20:50.
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Old 1st September 2016, 23:51   #171
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

I still retain my old engine. When I want to sell my car, my old engine will go back in.

As for the legality part, even changing the headlights of your car are illegal, so I am definitely not barking up the wrong branch here when I say I don't want to go through the hassle of endorsing my engine on the RC.
Besides that fact, there is nothing wrong on my behalf. There are lakhs of Hondas running with the same engine I am running. I am not polluting the atmosphere or doing anything wrong or hostile towards nature or anyone else.

I'd just like to say that this a hobby and I would prefer if people stopped getting into the legal nitty gritties of things, as I have clearly mentioned that this was illegal, but not dangerous.


In other news, a VERY exciting day today as I dropped my Crio off to KS Motorsport to FINALLY install the larger injectors which would be fueled by an RD Piggyback ECU. I am very nervous, to say the least as my car will come into it's own if this upgrade goes through well. The engine was a 1.5 litre engine, but was fueled like a 1.2. Air and fuel are the ONLY two variables that help increase the engine performance. I was starving my engine of fuel, and I will now be fueling it adequately (or so I hope)

More updates as they unfurl.........
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Old 2nd September 2016, 21:15   #172
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

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Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
I still retain my old engine. When I want to sell my car, my old engine will go back in.

As for the legality part, even changing the headlights of your car are illegal, so I am definitely not barking up the wrong branch here when I say I don't want to go through the hassle of endorsing my engine on the RC.
Besides that fact, there is nothing wrong on my behalf. There are lakhs of Hondas running with the same engine I am running. I am not polluting the atmosphere or doing anything wrong or hostile towards nature or anyone else.

I'd just like to say that this a hobby and I would prefer if people stopped getting into the legal nitty gritties of things, as I have clearly mentioned that this was illegal, but not dangerous.


In other news, a VERY exciting day today as I dropped my Crio off to KS Motorsport to FINALLY install the larger injectors which would be fueled by an RD Piggyback ECU. I am very nervous, to say the least as my car will come into it's own if this upgrade goes through well. The engine was a 1.5 litre engine, but was fueled like a 1.2. Air and fuel are the ONLY two variables that help increase the engine performance. I was starving my engine of fuel, and I will now be fueling it adequately (or so I hope)

More updates as they unfurl.........
Appreciate your candour, Frank, the trouble with our environment is people just try to ape one another without understanding the consequences. They read your thread and then think I will do it too, and copy without understanding the consequences that it is illegal. You may move on with an uneventful experience, many others who copy you may just get caught on the wrong side of the law. I wish the same effort and vigour was channelised into fixing the system that restricts this, but I suppose why bother, let the next couple of dozen generations bother with that, leaving legacies is for amateurs ...the whole fact this is chronicled here rather than remedying the system speaks volumes of our society in its current state, hope whatever reasons you decided to take steps you did pays off to your desire, cheerio happy and stress free motoring with your fast brio

Last edited by canonball : 2nd September 2016 at 21:17.
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Old 4th September 2016, 10:51   #173
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Default re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

Good morning, folks!
The Crio is back home after a couple of days at KS Motorsport for installation of larger fuel injectors (the stock 1.5 ones meant for this engine) and the installation and tuning of the Race Dynamics PowerTune piggyback ECU!

WHY Piggyback? Because my car and the engine are bone-stock. I do not wish to modify it further or make any major changes to it from it's current configuration. The only fly in the ointment was the fueling (and hence the timing) from the stock ECU, which was starving my engine off the fuel that it actually deserved. Hence the piggyback suited my requirements to the 'T.'


Now, the Honda 1.2 ECU is one tough bugger to tune, purely because it 'fights back' every time you make changes to it and tries to bring things to equilibrium. Another pain is the drive-by-wire throttle. These two factors make tuning of a Honda with a piggyback slightly complicated.

Karan Shah is an absolute genius. It's amazing how his notions about the cars he builds are so accurate and it's really a pleasure to work with him, since he will never give you a car until he's satisfied with it himself. And it takes a lot to please the man!

Seen in the video below is Karan working on 2 laptops, one for the dyno and one for the ecu tuning. Another contraption on the seat is the wideband O2 sensor that has turned out to be the mainstay when it comes to tuning my Honda.

Also attached is the NEW Dyno chart, as compared to the older one. Note the flat torque curve and the obvious gains in power.




Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-20160903_145932-copy.jpg

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-20160903_145948-copy.jpg

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-20160903_145956-copy.jpg

OLD DYNO with 1.2 engine and automech exhaust
Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-frank1.2.jpg

DYNO with 1.2 injectors and old ECU and automech exhaust
Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-frank-15.jpg

NEW INJECTORS NEW ECU stock restrictive exhaust
Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-frank-15rd.jpg


Haven't driven much, but initial impressions seem like the car has transformed TOTALLY.

More, in the coming posts....................
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Old 4th September 2016, 11:27   #174
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Default Re: Honda Brio: 1.5L Engine Swap successful (page 7)! Edit - Now with RD ECU and larger fuel inject

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Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
NEW INJECTORS NEW ECU stock restrictive exhaust


Haven't driven much, but initial impressions seem like the car has transformed TOTALLY.

More, in the coming posts....................
Oh man!

This keeps getting better and better. The power to weight figure is climbing even faster than these figures.

Looking forward to the coming posts. I'm guessing that something else is already being done as we speak.
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Old 5th September 2016, 16:26   #175
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Default Re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

The verdict is out!!! I have driven her for 200 km after replacing the injectors and adding a piggyback RD ECU to the mix.
Let's just say that THIS IS RIGHT, and EVERYTHING ELSE THAT HAPPENED BEFORE THAT IS WRONG!!!!
Sending the right amount of fuel to this baby has shown potential that I never dreamed of! Power-on-tap doesn't have a better definition! 1000 rpm is the only place where power is not in excess, but the car doesn't feel underpowered even at those RPMs in the higher gears. I CAN PUT MY FOOT DOWN slowly at 1000 rpm in 5th gear and climb a flyover!!!!!!! I can't express what happens after 1200 rpm in words. I mean the words POWER-TO-WEIGHT come to mind.
915 kgs getting so much torque and power are just unreal! And the best part about all this is how drivable this makes the car. The car feels like it's on steroids and powers through all gears like a locomotive with a mission! There is NO DRAMA. Just pure city driving nirvana. The fueling makes sure that a slight touch to the throttle makes the engine super happy and powers me through the gears. I am so happy with the initial tuning that I don't want to make changes to any of the fuel tables that Karan Shah wrote for me, saying that it's all preliminary and will require changes. MAN, how much better can it get!?!? I doubt it!


I am not into 0-100 timings, and I don't drag. I just want my car to deliver when I put my foot down. The ease of power delivery impresses me more than the delivery itself. I couldn't explain my requirements better than this. For those who wish to experience what I am experiencing, just drive my car once, and if you own a Brio or an Amaze or a Jazz, DO THIS!

I am going to take a long drive after I finish penning this review. Not because I need to. It's because I WANT to. It makes me smile and giggle like a baby! I love my car even more now!!!
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Old 5th September 2016, 16:32   #176
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Default Re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

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Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post

I am going to take a long drive after I finish penning this review. Not because I need to. It's because I WANT to. It makes me smile and giggle like a baby! I love my car even more now!!!
Now I want to get a Brio soon. And soon my family's assumption that I am crazy and my neighbours' assumptions that I am a mechanic rather than a R&D engineer is about to become true. Can you please, please drive down to Bengaluru and give us a hands on on this beast? In return I will give a tank full of fuel Way to go!
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Old 5th September 2016, 17:06   #177
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Default Re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

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Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
I CAN PUT MY FOOT DOWN slowly at 1000 rpm in 5th gear and climb a flyover
I smiled when I read that, because I remember the feeling. Being able to drive like that becomes so addictive it's tough to go back to a normal car later on.

Great job, and happy pootling.
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Old 21st September 2016, 01:37   #178
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Default Re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

A new upgrade. She looks even better in life!

More photos here http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ml#post4060914 (Mrs. Frankmehta's Honda "CRIO™": Brio with a City Engine!)

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-img_20160920_011910-copy.jpg

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-img_20160920_011607-copy.jpg

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-img_20160920_012522-copy.jpg

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-img_20160920_012242-copy.jpg

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-20160919_151920-copy.jpg

Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!-20160919_152815-copy.jpg
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Old 23rd September 2016, 21:29   #179
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Default Re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

Hi Everyone!
SO FINALLY SOME PROGRESS ON the Intake.
The last 3-4 days have been highly enlightening with respect to how the L Series of Honda engines work.
Remember that there are two primary variable Factors when it comes to internal combustion engines. air and fuel. The air-fuel ratio is the most important calculation that an ECU makes when it is running.
The more air you throw into an engine, the higher the fuel that is pumped in and the higher the power generated.
BUT, modern day engines are policed by ECUs which are getting cleverer, and they have just one aim in mind, TO MAINTAIN EQUILIBRIUM. In a way, all they do is, complex calculations to bring stability to the engine, make it run and make it emit less pollutants.

Honda's Lean-Burn L Series engine:
Even though most modern ECUs are slightly more open to changes like a cold-air intake or decat, ALL the L Series ECUs are quite less tolerant. Any changes you make to the mix, the L series ECU will ONLY try to maintain an Air-Fuel ratio, hereby referred to as AFR of 14.7 (Stoichiometric Air Fuel Mixture). Which should mean that if a larger air intake is placed in place of the stock airbox, the engine SHOULD be pumping in more fuel.
The repurcussions of this in a regular car would mean that the ECU would pump in more fuel into the engine to compensate for more air going into it.

However, in my case, I am running a 1.5 litre engine on a 1.2 litre ECU which means that my engine needs far more fuel than the 1.2 ECU can calculate for. Imagine, adding a larger filter. The ECU would just detect a large variation but fail to make a large correction as it's FUEL TABLES would not be able to comprehend such a large requirement of fuel (for a 1.5)

Coming back to my car, I decided to experiment a little.
The moment I added a short-ram intake, I realized I will be pulling more air into the engine, but without adjusting the fueling, I would not be able to add to the performance.
The results without adjusting the fueling were abysmal, just as expected. The car bogged down and it was a pain to drive in traffic as intake temperatures soared, making things worse.
Which is where my RD Piggyback came in. Even before the intake, the ECU was running custom fuel values. I connected my laptop to the ECU and added around 15% to the FUEL MAP table values.
Took the car out for a spin, and was shocked at the tangibility of the results.
The same car that felt bogged down with the earlier map, felt like she was on steroids with a larger intake and (slightly) more fueling. There was no bogging down and there was a new found smoothness to the engine. Power after 3000 rpm felt more noticeable (the VTEC) and the engine finally felt happy to get more air, and more importantly, more fuel.

MORAL OF THE STORY: IF you plan to add components like performance air filters, exhausts etc, make sure you complement the mod with an ECU remap or a Piggyback ECU. The ECUs of today are high-tech, and only updating their maps will yield better results with the mods. The stock ECU may try to accommodate them but your engine will be happier if everything is running optimally.

I rest my INTAKE case. I am finally going to post photos of how it looks in my engine bay.
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Old 23rd September 2016, 21:48   #180
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Default Re: Honda Brio: 1.5L engine swap successful (page 7)! Now with RD ECU & larger injectors!

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Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
Which is where my RD Piggyback came in. Even before the intake, the ECU was running custom fuel values. I connected my laptop to the ECU and added around 15% to the FUEL MAP table values.
Frank, are you monitoring your AFRs closely? Petrols can't really run rich and adding 15% to the fuel table is . This is precisely why we don't get off the shelf tuning boxes for petrols - they need to be tuned very carefully to avoid a disaster.

<Silent follower>
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