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Old 15th February 2017, 17:52   #136
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Default Re: Ford Aspire TDCi : My Blue Bombardier, flying low on tarmac EDIT : 25,000kms COMPLETED

We have discussed in length about Pedaltune and have heard/read different opinions about the same. But I have a question: What are the adverse effects of such a product? We know about the tuning box/remap that it affects the engine's long term life, so in the same way what con are we looking at wrt Pedaltune?
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Old 15th February 2017, 18:21   #137
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Default Re: Ford Aspire TDCi : My Blue Bombardier, flying low on tarmac EDIT : 25,000kms COMPLETED

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waspune View Post
We have discussed in length about Pedaltune and have heard/read different opinions about the same. But I have a question: What are the adverse effects of such a product? We know about the tuning box/remap that it affects the engine's long term life, so in the same way what con are we looking at wrt Pedaltune?

Absolutely NONE*. It's just like pressing down on your accelerator faster.

*Unless the PedalTune is dumb enough to go outside the original range of voltages sent back to the ECU. In which case all you'd get is a check engine light, but still without any damage to anything.**

**Unless the Pedaltune is so incredibly dumb that it fries the ECU with a really high voltage due to poor circuit design / lack of in-built protections.
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Old 15th February 2017, 19:01   #138
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Wink Re: Ford Aspire TDCi : My Blue Bombardier, flying low on tarmac EDIT : 25,000kms COMPLETED

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waspune View Post
We have discussed in length about Pedaltune and have heard/read different opinions about the same. But I have a question: What are the adverse effects of such a product? We know about the tuning box/remap that it affects the engine's long term life, so in the same way what con are we looking at wrt Pedaltune?
Ill try explain the perceived wear tear situation with equations
  • Remap (Re)
  • Paidal Tune (PT)
  • Normal driver (NJ)
  • Aggresive Driver(AJ)

Re + NJ = PT + NJ
Re + AJ > PT + NJ
Re + NJ < PT + AJ
Re + AJ > PT + AJ

Hope this helps.
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Old 15th February 2017, 19:08   #139
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Default Re: Ford Aspire TDCi : My Blue Bombardier, flying low on tarmac EDIT : 25,000kms COMPLETED

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Ill try explain the perceived wear tear situation with equations
  • Remap (Re)
  • Paidal Tune (PT)
  • Normal driver (NJ)
  • Aggresive Driver(AJ)

Re + NJ = PT + NJ
Re + AJ > PT + NJ
Re + NJ < PT + AJ
Re + AJ > PT + AJ

Hope this helps.
What wear and tear are we looking at wrt Pedal Tune alone? From the above set of equations it seems that a remap coupled with an aggressive driver is the worst combo (which does make sense), but from the 3rd equation(Re + NJ < PT + AJ), it seems that Pedaltune is worse than a remap (coupled with a normal driver) ?

Also i have read at various online places (Eg- Racechip) that a pedaltune (Racechip calls it Response control) would compliment a tuning box very well, so what will the equations become then?

Last edited by Waspune : 15th February 2017 at 19:13.
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Old 15th February 2017, 19:19   #140
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Default Re: Ford Aspire TDCi : My Blue Bombardier, flying low on tarmac EDIT : 25,000kms COMPLETED

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waspune View Post
but from the 3rd equation(Re + NJ < PT + AJ), it seems that Pedaltune is worse than a remap (coupled with a normal driver) ?
What will happen to a car engine if driven with a constant heavy foot? for any given road situation speed load etc? Pedal tune with aggressive driver hence would put more stress, in comparison to a remap and gentle driver. Won't it?

Quote:
Also i have read at various online places (Eg- Racechip) that a pedaltune (Racechip calls it Response control) would compliment a tuning box very well, so what will the equations become then?
Re + AJ = Rt + PT + AJ

So you can say Re = Rt + PT
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Old 15th February 2017, 19:32   #141
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Default Re: Ford Aspire TDCi : My Blue Bombardier, flying low on tarmac EDIT : 25,000kms COMPLETED

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
What will happen to a car engine if driven with a constant heavy foot? for any given road situation speed load etc? Pedal tune with aggressive driver hence would put more stress, in comparison to a remap and gentle driver. Won't it?
Well this looks like a debatable topic because of the following points:

1) A remapped car always works at higher than stock limit levels even if its been driven by a non-aggressive driver.
2) What percentage of people are we looking at who get their cars remapped(for performance)/chiptuned/pedaltuned but arent aggressive drivers?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Re + AJ = Rt + PT + AJ

So you can say Re = Rt + PT
I read somewhere that even a product like a pedal tune modifies driver's wish map, like a remap. So the above equation stands corrected.
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Old 15th February 2017, 19:36   #142
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Default Re: Ford Aspire TDCi : My Blue Bombardier, flying low on tarmac EDIT : 25,000kms COMPLETED

Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
When shall we meet?
How about over the weekend? I am travelling for rest of the week

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Yeah i agree, i don't know why people can't understand simple electronic cheats.
Good explanation of the "Paidal Tune"...Jaggu dada

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Naren View Post
@Jaggu : Even the economy mode is supposed to have more response in this pedal tune box than stock. There is no mode lesser than stock here . I know the world "Economy" would make anyone think it's lesser than stock.

Logically power gain is not possible. But I think it can help in 0-100, in gear acceleration timing. On stock settings, the voltage rise graph is linear. But on pedal tune it's not linear, but it meets the stock graph at the end. So this doesn't lead to any dead zone on the pedal.
I didn't find much improvement in Eco mode. Maybe I did not spend too much time there. Been only in Sports and RACE mode. Will drive in ECO mode too and report back. The problem is I just don't feel like using that mode (call me narrow minded if you wish...LOL!)

In gear acceleration and 0-100 timing can be definitely improved with the paidal tune (pun intended akin to Jaggu) as the car feels blisteringly fast

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Actually you won't need this box if you have a remap. Cause u can take care of it in the map itself.

This box cheats the ECU into thinking more throttle is being applied than
Wrong! TB does not have any remaps related to throttle response

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
A remap would have been a great option in Avi's car and would made most sense. But the Ford ECU doesn't get remapped over OBD and would have to be removed for a bench flash. I don't think he's happy with that concept hence a plug and play option like an RD Box or equivalent would work in this case.
Besides the above point, ToT quoted a ridiculously high price of 34K and I have used the tuning box in the past and I can't say I have any complaints and its been enjoyable to use them with no effects to the engine over a 60,000kms usage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Naren View Post
Tuning box is the best option for cars which cannot be remapped / difficult to remap like the Aspire here. Glued to this thread, want to see the results of tuning box with pedal tune
I was ready for a remap and Pete acted little high-handed (lackluster response to my enquiry) and their discounted offer was also taken off so I decided to go back to the TB route

The deadly combination of TB and PT will be installed over the weekend and tested on ORR by me and Anurag and we'll come back with all reports of our tests

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
  • Remap (Re)
  • Paidal Tune (PT)
  • Normal driver (NJ)
  • Aggresive Driver(AJ)

Re + NJ = PT + NJ
Re + AJ > PT + NJ
Re + NJ < PT + AJ
Re + AJ > PT + AJ
What is the point of these equations? Keeping the driver constant above equations don't make any sense

Remember a normal driver will most likely not go for any modifications such as the PT & TB

Last edited by mobike008 : 15th February 2017 at 19:38.
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Old 15th February 2017, 19:38   #143
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Default Re: Ford Aspire TDCi : My Blue Bombardier, flying low on tarmac EDIT : 25,000kms COMPLETED

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waspune View Post
1) A remapped car always works at higher than stock limit levels even if its been driven by a non-aggressive driver.
How? More often it eases load on engine with more fuelling et all and reduces stress, compared to an engine which is tightly tuned for emissions etc

Quote:
2) What percentage of people are we looking at who get their cars remapped(for performance)/chiptuned/pedaltuned but arent aggressive drivers?
Now why are we doing statistics? and what makes it not applicable to Paidal tune?

Quote:
I read somewhere that even a product like a pedal tune modifies driver's wish map, like a remap. So the above equation stands corrected.
I doubt it changes anything more than throttle input.

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobike008 View Post

Remember a normal driver will most likely not go for any modifications such as the PT & TB

This is not for you, was explaining matters to someone else my friend. :P

Last edited by Jaggu : 15th February 2017 at 19:41.
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Old 15th February 2017, 19:41   #144
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Default Re: Ford Aspire TDCi : My Blue Bombardier, flying low on tarmac EDIT : 25,000kms COMPLETED

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobike008 View Post

Wrong! TB does not have any remaps related to throttle response
What's a TB? Tuning box? I wasn't talking of tuning box, I am talking of a remap. A tuning box is a more sophisticated cheat device. It takes value from 2 sensors and changes that coming out of the ECU.

A remap is changing the map stored inside the ECU which can alter throttle.

A tuning box is a box that changes values going into or out of the ECU thereby fooling the ECU and making it compensate.

A pedal tune just changes the throttle position value going into the ECU and makes the ECU behave accordingly.
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Old 15th February 2017, 19:49   #145
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Default Re: Ford Aspire TDCi : My Blue Bombardier, flying low on tarmac EDIT : 25,000kms COMPLETED

Be it normal or aggressive driver, pedal tune box can't put any extra stress on the engine. Logically the box can't increase the power and all it does is cut the lag and make the throttle super crisp. I am still little skeptical and I would buy the box only if I am happy with 0-100 / in gear acceleration.

With remap, you increase the fuelling above stock across the revv band. There is more power/torque and obviously more stress on the engine. I am not saying remap would kill the engine, manufacturers do keep a good safety margin.

There's something called drivers wish map. Making changes here could result in better throttle response. But I doubt it would be as effective as pedal tune. Its not an easy process with remap. There are other limiter maps too. All need to be tweaked and made to work in harmony.

Also, Remap vs Pedal Tune is not even a topic to debate. Both work differently. Pedal Tune works well even in remapped cars. Frank is running his GT TSI with remap, pedal tune and DSG T Box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
How? More often it eases load on engine with more fuelling et all and reduces stress, compared to an engine which is tightly tuned for emissions etc
Yes, with a remap you would feel that engine is less stressful. But what we feel is not the same what engine would "feel". Remap = more fuel = driver happy and would feel engine doesn't struggle. But more fuel = more EGT (in a diesel) = Engine, turbo charger wear and tear level increase .We can't feel that

Also how does remap make power?? Yes, you tweak many maps. Ultimately it's the injectors and turbo charger which is put under stress ( say more than stock). If you change fuel rail pressure map.,even CRDI high pressure pump is put under more stress.

Last edited by Dr.Naren : 15th February 2017 at 20:07.
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Old 15th February 2017, 20:36   #146
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Default Re: Ford Aspire TDCi : My Blue Bombardier, flying low on tarmac EDIT : 25,000kms COMPLETED

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Naren View Post
Be it normal or aggressive driver, pedal tune box can't put any extra stress on the engine. Logically the box can't increase the power and all it does is cut the lag and make the throttle super crisp. I am still little skeptical and I would buy the box only if I am happy with 0-100 / in gear acceleration.
Not true. You are now driving with more throttle than what is needed. So now normal acceleration is rapid. This will put more load on the clutch and also inject more fuel thereby it's like an aggressive driver driving all times.

Avi has mentioned he sees the fuel efficiency reduce. The clutch will get a beating cause there's no gentle use of the clutch.
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Old 15th February 2017, 20:59   #147
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Default Re: Ford Aspire TDCi : My Blue Bombardier, flying low on tarmac EDIT : 25,000kms COMPLETED

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Not true. You are now driving with more throttle than what is needed. So now normal acceleration is rapid. This will put more load on the clutch and also inject more fuel thereby it's like an aggressive driver driving all times.
What I was trying to say is that "Pedal tune box cannot inject more fuel". I am taking about the Max IQ(Injected Quantity. Also the ECU looks at accelerator pedal position and requests certain amount of fuel. Pedal tune box should work within the safety limits set in ECU maps. This is the reason why at full throttle, pedal tune box effect is same as stock.

Quote:
Avi has mentioned he sees the fuel efficiency reduce. The clutch will get a beating cause there's no gentle use of the clutch.
Some users have reported better FE too. Let's wait for further updates from Avinash. He should have been exploiting the box fully
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Old 15th February 2017, 21:04   #148
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Default Re: Ford Aspire TDCi : My Blue Bombardier, flying low on tarmac EDIT : 25,000kms COMPLETED

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Naren View Post
What I was trying to say is that "Pedal tune box cannot inject more fuel". I am taking about the Max IQ(Injected Quantity. Also the ECU looks at accelerator pedal position and requests certain amount of fuel. Pedal tune box should work within the safety limits set in ECU maps. This is the reason why at full throttle, pedal tune box effect is same as stock.
Who said it will inject more fuel? There's no connection to fuelling so there's no way to inject more fuel than what the ECU is mapped to.

But it will always run higher throttle than stock. This is what increases wear. The car will be at higher throttle than the stock at all times. You need to then compensate that. Plus it will mean more braking.

Point is not engine wear and tear alone but overall mechanical wear and tear to clutch, brakes and other components.
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Old 15th February 2017, 21:09   #149
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Default Re: PedalTune: Customisable throttle response

Dr. Naren. I guess you misunderstood Vid6639. What he's trying to explain seems to be the wear and tear generally caused by employing aggressive driving which would happen even without pedaltune when vehicles are driven pedal to the floor continuously. He's not implying any additional stress or load. What he's trying to say is that pedal tune would translate even a normal driver to an aggressive one.
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Old 15th February 2017, 21:14   #150
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Default Re: Ford Aspire TDCi : My Blue Bombardier, flying low on tarmac EDIT : 25,000kms COMPLETED

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
But it will always run higher throttle than stock. This is what increases wear. The car will be at higher throttle than the stock at all times. You need to then compensate that. Plus it will mean more braking.

Point is not engine wear and tear alone but overall mechanical wear and tear to clutch, brakes and other components.
I had mentioned in my post that Pedal tune box won't put extra stress on the engine Since the fuelling is within safety limits set by ECU, pedal tune can't do anything here.

Regarding mechanical wear of other parts, I would partially agree.

Be it a normal or aggressive driver, he would expect something by pressing the pedal. Say the driver wants 60 percent throttle effect, he will get it by pushing the pedal harder without pedal box while the same effect he would get early by pressing the pedal lesser with the box. With or without the box, the driver is going to get that throttle response. Once the driver is used to pedal tune box, he will adjust his driving style and obviously use the pedal lesser. We can't say that Pedal box can make a driver aggressive.

Last edited by Dr.Naren : 15th February 2017 at 21:17.
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