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Old 9th January 2017, 11:42   #61
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Default Re: PedalTune: Customisable throttle response

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Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
As I keep saying, this PedalTune is NOT just throttle voltage modulation. It's a lot of other things.
Frank, coming from a person like you who has gone to insane experiments, I would like to know what apart from throttle voltage modulation?

Think from a system point of view - What are the inputs? Accelerator pedal position. What can it control? Accelerator pedal position. Apart from this, it can receive no other data, and control nothing else. Now what are the other things you mention about? Correct me if I am wrong, the pedal tune box itself has no other information from the vehicle regarding its speed/load/engine speed etc.

I am not sure if I have mentioned this. Maruti Suzuki tried a sort of pedal tune trick in the Drive by wire versions of the K10 engine. The earlier K10 engine was known for a pathetic low end response. After implementing drive by wire, they have programmed it in such a way that when the vehicle speed is low and engine is at low speeds, a small tap on the accelerator pedal will open the throttle to 60%. This indeed has improved the behaviour in my Celerio compared to the WagonR I had earlier. But there is no rocket science involved. Its equivalent of flooring the pedal when you want response. Just that the physical feeling of using full accelerator is absent.
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Old 9th January 2017, 11:51   #62
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Default Re: PedalTune: Customisable throttle response

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
Frank, coming from a person like you who has gone to insane experiments, I would like to know what apart from throttle voltage modulation?

Think from a system point of view - What are the inputs? Accelerator pedal position. What can it control? Accelerator pedal position. Apart from this, it can receive no other data, and control nothing else. Now what are the other things you mention about? Correct me if I am wrong, the pedal tune box itself has no other information from the vehicle regarding its speed/load/engine speed etc.

I am not sure if I have mentioned this. Maruti Suzuki tried a sort of pedal tune trick in the Drive by wire versions of the K10 engine. The earlier K10 engine was known for a pathetic low end response. After implementing drive by wire, they have programmed it in such a way that when the vehicle speed is low and engine is at low speeds, a small tap on the accelerator pedal will open the throttle to 60%. This indeed has improved the behaviour in my Celerio compared to the WagonR I had earlier. But there is no rocket science involved. Its equivalent of flooring the pedal when you want response. Just that the physical feeling of using full accelerator is absent.

The PedalTune controls the following: (remember, it has 2 wires that send signals to the ECU too)
1. Fuelling
2. Driver's Wish Map
3. Modulation of Engine RPM
4. Turbo Spool (due to RPM modulation)
5. Throttle Pedal Voltage
6. DSG Shifting (which is a consequence of the Throttle pedal voltage)

This in the Polo. In NA and indirect Injection engines, it controls 1,2,3,5.

Last edited by frankmehta : 9th January 2017 at 11:53.
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Old 9th January 2017, 11:57   #63
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Default Re: PedalTune: Customisable throttle response

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Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
The PedalTune controls the following:
1. Fuelling
2. Driver's Wish Map
3. Modulation of Engine RPM
4. Turbo Spool (due to RPM modulation)
5. Throttle Pedal Voltage
6. DSG Shifting (which is a consequence of the Throttle pedal voltage)

This in the Polo. In NA and indirect Injection engines, it controls 1,2,3,5.
Isnt all that dependent upon accelerator pedal position? Thats all I want to convey. As an output, it can only alter the accelerator pedal position after which the ECU or the TCM should do the rest. PedalTune wont have direct control over any of these parameters independently like how a piggyback ECU or a tuning box(not the single channel ones which alter rail pressure) can have. Those are just the consequences of sending to the ECU a high accelerator pedal position value.
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Old 9th January 2017, 12:01   #64
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Default Re: PedalTune: Customisable throttle response

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
Isnt all that dependent upon accelerator pedal position? Thats all I want to convey. As an output, it can only alter the accelerator pedal position after which the ECU or the TCM should do the rest. PedalTune wont have direct control over any of these parameters independently like how a piggyback ECU or a tuning box(not the single channel ones which alter rail pressure) can have. Those are just the consequences of sending to the ECU a high accelerator pedal position value.
I don't think you are getting my moot point. It is NOT just sending a signal to the throttle sensor . It's circuit has values going to the ECU too. Which is where this PedalTune's wizardry comes to the fore. It controls all the above values with the ECU which is in control of the entire situation.

How can one compare a simple solution like this to a remap or a tuning box?!
This is drive by wire, where the Pedal position is not cable controlled, and like earlier, just pressing the pedal in doesn't amplify signals alone. It takes a lot of parameters in consideration. This is where the PedalTune comes into play. All parameters going to the ECU are tweaked, and the final signal that goes to the ECU takes a lot of these parameters to give you better response and the feeling of power coming in earlier than it does, normally.
Remember, like the old times, Pedal Travel alone will not improve the response of a car.
Try once. KEEP Your pedal stuck to 60% position and try driving. It's impossible. PedalTune gives you the luxury of controlling the ECU to your throttle responses based on your requirements

Last edited by frankmehta : 9th January 2017 at 12:12.
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Old 9th January 2017, 12:18   #65
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Default Re: PedalTune: Customisable throttle response

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Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
I don't think you are getting my moot point. It is NOT just sending a signal to the throttle sensor . It's circuit has values going to the ECU too. Which is where this PedalTune's wizardry comes to the fore. It controls all the above values with the ECU which is in control of the entire situation.
The Accelerator pedal connector in most cars is a six pin connector. Three for main and three for sub sensor. In these three pins, one is the reference high voltage(5V usually), another reference low(GND) and the third is a varying voltage that varies with the change in pedal position. The same for the sub sensor, and sub sensor acts as a comparison reference just to ensure that the main sensor is not providing faulty readings.

These are analog ports and apart from a voltage, nothing else can be sent. The ECU has a set of analogue-digital converters which just convert the voltage(say 0-5V) to a digital value(0-65535 for a 16 bit machine) after which further processing can be done. Now apart from this 0-5V signal sent to ECU from accelerator pedal, there can be no 'wizardry' done. This is not even a CAN signal where you can stream various data and alter stuff. That is why I am stressing upon my point. It cannot send a kickdown request to transmission through the APP connector to which it is connected to.
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Old 9th January 2017, 12:23   #66
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Default Re: PedalTune: Customisable throttle response

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
The Accelerator pedal connector in most cars is a six pin connector. Three for main and three for sub sensor. In these three pins, one is the reference high voltage(5V usually), another reference low(GND) and the third is a varying voltage that varies with the change in pedal position. The same for the sub sensor, and sub sensor acts as a comparison reference just to ensure that the main sensor is not providing faulty readings.

These are analog ports and apart from a voltage, nothing else can be sent. The ECU has a set of analogue-digital converters which just convert the voltage(say 0-5V) to a digital value(0-65535 for a 16 bit machine) after which further processing can be done. Now apart from this 0-5V signal sent to ECU from accelerator pedal, there can be no 'wizardry' done. This is not even a CAN signal where you can stream various data and alter stuff. That is why I am stressing upon my point. It cannot send a kickdown request to transmission through the APP connector to which it is connected to.
Also, kindly note this, EACH PedalTune comes with a DEDICATED micro-controller for EACH car. So, say, a Micro Controller for the Polo will not suit a, say BMW 1-Series. The micro controller has these values set for each car, based on how it behaves under different throttle positions and scenarios.
PedalTUne for each model is developed with direct corresponsdence with guys who actually work at the factories of the respective cars, and that is where this thing doesn't end at throttle modulation alone. The micro controller sends customised values at each millisecond to provide the best-case scenario for the ECU to fuel and spool.

MY GOD! This debate doesn't seem to end. I rest my case. This is a good product. Try it once. I would love for you to try it once.
WHich car do you own?
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Old 9th January 2017, 12:52   #67
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Default Re: PedalTune: Customisable throttle response

I am not a very technically accomplished person, and i can only give inputs from a lay man's point of view

Its no secret that the CVT is far from being a scorcher and can easily be classified as a sluggish sort of a system.

With PedalTune on, all i can see is quick changes which i would associate with a DSG. Again, i would like to re-iterate here, that i am not technically accomplished and do not know how this small box functions. But i truly am overwhelmed with the kind of sorcery it has done with my car !!
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Old 10th January 2017, 01:10   #68
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Default Re: PedalTune: Customisable throttle response

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
Also, kindly note this, EACH PedalTune comes with a DEDICATED micro-controller for EACH car. So, say, a Micro Controller for the Polo will not suit a, say BMW 1-Series. The micro controller has these values set for each car, based on how it behaves under different throttle positions and scenarios.
PedalTUne for each model is developed with direct corresponsdence with guys who actually work at the factories of the respective cars, and that is where this thing doesn't end at throttle modulation alone. The micro controller sends customised values at each millisecond to provide the best-case scenario for the ECU to fuel and spool.

MY GOD! This debate doesn't seem to end. I rest my case. This is a good product. Try it once. I would love for you to try it once.
WHich car do you own?
Just stop digging.

Whitepaper on the SprintBooster

Devices to change the behaviour of e-throttles have been around for almost as long as e-throttles have been around. There is absolutely nothing spehul about any of them, including this latest thingmajiggy. As long as it is sitting between the pedal and the APP port on the ECU, there is nothing magical happening.

Oh, it changes the throttle curve differently for different cars. So they know how to program a $1 microcontroller.

WAAAVVVVVV.
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Old 10th January 2017, 01:54   #69
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Default Re: PedalTune: Customisable throttle response

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Originally Posted by ImmortalZ View Post
Thank you so much for sharing this technical paper/report. Clears up significantly what I had long guessed about these so called 'Pedal response systems'.
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Old 10th January 2017, 02:05   #70
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Default Re: PedalTune: Customisable throttle response

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Originally Posted by Samar117 View Post
Thank you so much for sharing this technical paper/report. Clears up significantly what I had long guessed about these so called 'Pedal response systems'.
We really aren't talking about a sprint booster here, though. Just because a direct injection, turbo charged engine is still an engine, we don't compare it to pushrods of yore, do we?
Anyway, each onion has their own opinion.
Some friendly banter here, some debate there! That's what a good forum is made of! 2 people on the same side (ie to keep their cars running at their best health) trying to look at two sides of a coin!
The topic gets more interesting!
Just to clear myself, 3 months of actual experience can be slightly more insightful than 10 minutes of Google and 3 minutes of guessing. Just saying...
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Old 10th January 2017, 04:26   #71
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Default Re: PedalTune: Customisable throttle response

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Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
The topic gets more interesting!
Just to clear myself, 3 months of actual experience can be slightly more insightful than 10 minutes of Google and 3 minutes of guessing. Just saying...
Ah you must forgive a student of physics for enjoying a nice technical paper filled with boring graphs and numbers!

Anyhow I am linking a small video on how your Acceleration Pedal Position sensor works along with an image

Name:  AK603468AB00ENG.png
Views: 585
Size:  30.5 KB




As the gentleman a few posts above has already explained, the six pins can only take analog values of a set variation of voltage(0-X) volts say. Which means you cannot send anything else along that line, you can't say, send a mp3 file of your favorite song along that line! The ECU simply does not understand anything else apart from that variation of (0-X)Volts from the APP.

Now coming to what these boxes do is, through op-amps, boosts the voltage slightly. And that is all it does. You would for example, arrive at full throttle with the pedal 75% pressed and the rest 25% would be a dead zone( as the voltage sent out at 75% has been boosted and has reached the ceiling value of X Volts, so the ECU is thinking you have already hit the pedal to the metal)

You can actually achieve the same result by training yourself to mash the pedal faster, or putting in a slightly less stiff spring on the pedal, it will give you the same benefit.
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Old 10th January 2017, 07:22   #72
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Default Re: PedalTune: Customisable throttle response

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Originally Posted by Samar117 View Post
Ah...

You can actually achieve the same result by training yourself to mash the pedal faster, or putting in a slightly less stiff spring on the pedal, it will give you the same benefit.
Physics lessons apart, which cars with drive by wire throttle respond to your pedal inputs alone? You are telling me, today's drive by wire cars respond exactly the same way as a cable driven throttle car would do, say, at 50 percent pedal pressure, and directly proportional to that at 70 percent pressure? There are so many parameters that your foot and brain together can't modulate!

Today's world of electric throttle has way too many variations that our brain can perceive and handle.

Last edited by GTO : 11th January 2017 at 09:12. Reason: Do NOT post in a rude manner on Team-BHP
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Old 10th January 2017, 09:06   #73
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Default Re: PedalTune: Customisable throttle response

I think this reply is elaborate enough and thats all is the message that is being conveyed(or tried to).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImmortalZ View Post
Just stop digging.

Whitepaper on the SprintBooster

Devices to change the behaviour of e-throttles have been around for almost as long as e-throttles have been around. There is absolutely nothing spehul about any of them, including this latest thingmajiggy. As long as it is sitting between the pedal and the APP port on the ECU, there is nothing magical happening.

Oh, it changes the throttle curve differently for different cars. So they know how to program a $1 microcontroller.
Lets clarify this - No one is questioning the change in the behaviour of the car after installing pedal tune. All we are trying to discuss is how this change is brought out by this system and what is its capability technically. No one is claiming this to be a psychological change. Unfortunately, one side of the debate justifies what the system does technically while the other justifies that this works. Both are correct, just that they dont seem to converge. I agree that it works, but at the same time, you too should understand how it works. If not, then there is no point in debating all day long.

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Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
Just to clear myself, 3 months of actual experience
Three months of actual experience like I said can justify that it works. 10 minutes of google can justify how it works. And three minutes of guessing will also tell that I guess I can build this device for 30EUR. As simple as that.

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Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
This is an Internet forum
Did not want to trumpet this, but I do sit on a desk all day long and do similar programming but on much bigger controllers which control more than just an accelerator pedal signal. Hence, I am not making an armchair comment. Please excuse me. Enough information has been shared and discussed already, hence, there is nothing more to justify or explain. If there is anything, then please feel free to ask.

Last edited by GTO : 11th January 2017 at 09:13. Reason: Quoted post deleted. Thanks
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Old 10th January 2017, 10:53   #74
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Default Re: PedalTune: Customisable throttle response

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
The PedalTune controls the following: (remember, it has 2 wires that send signals to the ECU too)
1. Fuelling
2. Driver's Wish Map
3. Modulation of Engine RPM
4. Turbo Spool (due to RPM modulation)
5. Throttle Pedal Voltage
6. DSG Shifting (which is a consequence of the Throttle pedal voltage)

This in the Polo. In NA and indirect Injection engines, it controls 1,2,3,5.
Does the PedalTune control all the items mentioned above, besides 5, directly or indirectly?
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Old 10th January 2017, 12:05   #75
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Default Re: PedalTune: Customisable throttle response

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
Three months of actual experience like I said can justify that it works. 10 minutes of google can justify how it works. And three minutes of guessing will also tell that I guess I can build this device for 30EUR. As simple as that.
Since you work at R&D you are aware of the cost of the product is more than bill of materials, right. This being a niche product, though works on a simple principle by manipulating the throttle output signal, it works(even you are not disputing it).

I too work in similar field as yours, I'm worried how much DFMEA(Design Failure Mode and Effect Analysis) and FMEA(Failure Mode Effect Analysis) has this product gone through. The users so far hasn't come up with any erratic behaviours. My main worry is this, sticky throttle, unintended acceleration.

So are you not happy about the price of the product?

So what decide the price of the product?
- The concept ? - More complex the solution higher the price?
- Reliability ?
- Result?

For me, the product should be reliable and the results should be satisfactory.

For example: A piggyback ECU which is well calibrated and tested Vs Stand alone ECU with a multitude of functions which is not calibrated at all, just with a baseline MAP.

It is an easy choice, isn't it or is it. Some people like the former, they like to tweak and learn. End of the day it comes down to personal preference, I believe.

This product PedalTune, we are paying more for the marketing, dealer profit and R&D cost than the bill of materials. Isn't this true for most of the electronic products out there? In our field, how much should an end user pay for sensor replacements?

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post

Pps: Stiff spring in the accelerator made my day!
Buddy, looking forward for an unbiased review. Please do report if you face any minor glitches with the product in the future. Like small unintended acceleration, etc.

Last edited by noopster : 10th January 2017 at 17:25. Reason: As requested
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