Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Modifications & Accessories


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 6th February 2017, 22:32   #16
Senior - BHPian
 
Dr.Naren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: B'lore / Mysore
Posts: 2,576
Thanked: 4,446 Times
Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

I am not a technical expert and I honestly do not understand how it's helping to make a significant difference.

According to Frank, this is not about drop in coolant temperature. But it's about the time taken to cool( rate of cooling) . I am really interested to know how better rate of cooling would do such a drastic change in performance.
Dr.Naren is online now   (3) Thanks
Old 6th February 2017, 22:35   #17
Senior - BHPian
 
frankmehta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,865
Thanked: 2,216 Times
Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Quote:
Originally Posted by yzfrj View Post
Where on the engine is your coolant temperature sensor located?

You realize that ignition timing is continuously varied by the ECU in response to various parameters including, but not limited to intake air temp, coolant temp and load, right? How have you managed to keep everything constant in your before and after comparisons?
Coolant temperature sensor is attached to the reservoir itself. I think it's visible in photos.
I kept the car at standstill, and took screenshots at idling, 2000 rpm and 5000 rpm, before and after. It was a matter of 10 minutes and similar conditions, so I guess, it's fair ground for comparison.
frankmehta is offline  
Old 6th February 2017, 22:38   #18
Team-BHP Support
 
Vid6639's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 14,285
Thanked: 18,786 Times
Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post

Here's a diagram of the cooling circuit of the CBZB 1.2 tsi engine. Have a look at how crucial the coolant is, in our engines
Ok some clarity I can see from that diagram. The 1.2TSI has 2 coolant loops. One is the engine coolant loop and the second is the charge air cooling loop.

Both as per the diagram have their own radiators which means there should be 2 radiators already.

You will not see coolant temp change as coolant temp gauge might only be for the engine coolant loop not the air intake loop. That explains why you didnt see the change. I am not sure of this as it depends on where the coolant temp sensor is located in that diagram.

Secondly you have 2 radiators already as per the diagram for both loops.

Can you tell exactly how you connected this 3rd contraption in the diagram?

Last edited by Vid6639 : 6th February 2017 at 22:50.
Vid6639 is offline   (7) Thanks
Old 6th February 2017, 22:40   #19
BHPian
 
yzfrj's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: who cares
Posts: 778
Thanked: 118 Times
Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
Coolant temperature sensor is attached to the reservoir itself. I think it's visible in photos.
I kept the car at standstill, and took screenshots at idling, 2000 rpm and 5000 rpm, before and after. It was a matter of 10 minutes and similar conditions, so I guess, it's fair ground for comparison.
Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) sensors are mounted on the engine somewhere on the head or the block, not the coolant reservoir.
yzfrj is offline   (3) Thanks
Old 6th February 2017, 22:44   #20
Senior - BHPian
 
Dr.Naren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: B'lore / Mysore
Posts: 2,576
Thanked: 4,446 Times
Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
Coolant temperature sensor is attached to the reservoir itself.
Frank, I think that's the sensor for coolant level which is present on reservoir.
Dr.Naren is online now   (2) Thanks
Old 6th February 2017, 22:48   #21
Senior - BHPian
 
frankmehta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,865
Thanked: 2,216 Times
Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Quote:
Originally Posted by yzfrj View Post
Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) sensors are mounted on the engine somewhere on the head or the block, not the coolant reservoir.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Naren View Post
Frank, I think that's the sensor for coolant level which is present on reservoir.
Yes, MY bad. Sorry. I think that's the coolant level sensor. I don't know whee the temperature sensor resides. Sorry again for that gaff.
Senior moment, as our not-so-senior moderator Navin calls it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Ok some clarity I can see from that diagram. The 1.2TSI has 2 coolant loops. One is the engine coolant loop and the second is the charge air cooling loop.

Both as per the diagram have their own radiators which means there should be 2 radiators.

You will not see coolant temp change as coolant temp gauge might only be for the engine coolant loop not the air intake loop. That explains why you didnt see the change. I am not sure of this as it depends on where the coolant temp sensor is located in that diagram.

Secondly you have 2 radiators already as per the diagram for both loops.

Can you tell exactly how you connected this 3rd contraption in the diagram?
I shall put my Apple Pencil to good use. Hahahha, finally, some use for it!
Yes, I shall show where I am attaching the contraption.
frankmehta is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 6th February 2017, 22:59   #22
Team-BHP Support
 
Vid6639's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 14,285
Thanked: 18,786 Times
Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Quoting Sankar from an old post of his. He might be able to enlighten us more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
I'd like to add a few points here...

This engine has a different kind of intercooler setup which VW call as the "charged air cooler". Its built into the plastic intake manifold assy. Its a kind of air to water intercooler.

The interesting point to note here is that the engine cooling circuit is NOT shared between engine cooling and charge air cooling. This engine has separate cooling circuits for engine cooling and charge air cooling.

Engine cooling circuit is powered by a mechanical pump and the charge air cooling circuit is powered by a electric pump. Both circuits have separate heat exchangers (radiators) and runs independently of the other, except the common expansion tank.

Engine and Charge air cooling circuit needs to be kept separate because if engine cooling circuit is used to cool charge air it will heat the air instead of cooling it.

(PS: Do not confuse the above tech with a dual circuit engine cooling which is present in this engine as well as some other new engines where head and block has a switchable circuit which helps to attain engine operating temp quickly).
Vid6639 is offline   (8) Thanks
Old 6th February 2017, 22:59   #23
BHPian
 
prithwi-81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 682
Thanked: 983 Times
Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Interesting. Basically an AUX radiator post the expansion tank in your car. Interesting mod for sure. I can see the benefits a bit as adding a heat sink post the coolant expansion tank will result in a cooler coolant going back into the engine.

My two cents.
#1 The Polo GT TSI has 2 radiators. One primary radiator to cool the engine AND cool the air-water intercooler mounted on the intake manifold. There is a thermostat that controls when the the secondary radiator is used to provide additional cooling to coolant before it enters the intercooler which is on more or less after 10 mins of driving in our lovely tropical climate. Adding a third radiator to the system will improve efficiency, provided its placed in series with the secondary radiator. I dont see that being the case here. This is placed in series with the primary radiator post the coolant expansion tank, so I doubt this will make more power. It will however make the engine run cooler.

#2 Placement of the new radiator is crap. Its a Air to Water Radiator.. it NEEDS airflow THROUGH it to work properly. As it sits now its acting more like a expansion chamber and less like a radiator.

If it were upto me, I'd remove the front fog light, place it in serial after the secondary radiator. So coolant goes into secondary radiator, gets cooled, goes into aux radiator, gets cooled further, goes into intercooler and voila it makes for a cooler Intake Air Temp and that leads to denser air and more power.

#3 As most of u know I ran the pants off my GT TSI with Revo 97 map on and off the track. I never felt the car overheat or the IAT's go beyond 60 degree C no matter what the ambient temp was. Engine temp was always constant at 90 and IAT climbed to 60 and held there even in 45 degree outside air temp. That said, a 60 degree IAT is nothing to be proud of. My K04 Skoda keeps IAT at 45 degree no matter what, unless I'm sitting idling in traffic. So the existing system is very very efficient and hold up well to a increased boost but could be potentially augmented to provide lower IAT. That said this would be of help in the config I mentioned because it has the potential to lower the IAT's further which in turn would yield a cooler intake charge and can potentially improve the consistency of power delivery and also improve power delivery.

#4 Additional coolant volume thanks to this tank is always welcome in any air to liquid cooling system. HOWEVER the waterpumps on most VAG cars are the weak points. Enough VW's, Audi's and Skoda's out there with failed or failing waterpumps. Most of it is due to the thermostat being integrated into the waterpump and that collects crap over time and goes bust. My friend's audi A6 3.0T is suffering from the same right now. So over time the flow efficiency of the pump decreases. Now add more volume to the system and you will be stressing out the waterpump further which is of concern. Companies like AMS provide an inline electric pump to add to the system with the Cooling Kits for the 3.0T and F81/82 M3/M4, both of which are using a similar air to water intercooler system like our humble GT TSIs.

I don't know how much more coolant this expansion tank contains but it looks like it adds about a liter of coolant capacity to the existing system. So stressing out the coolant pump can be an issue. I've been debating and designing the same mod for a while using the OEM RS4 Auxilart Radiator but then gave up on it as I couldn't get a pump to add to the system and also a replacement thermostat that would keep the radiator bypass open longer and also the car was doing just great as is without it.

#5 PLEASE POST LOGS! The VAG cars have tremendous support for data logging and u can literally data log before and after implications of everything. So whenever you are putting forward the claims of a product (be it Pedal Tune or a aux radiator) back it up with logs of relevant parameters (before and after) so people don't get into the quintessential Indian critic mode and you can avoid a lot of moronic and pointless discussions.

Hope this helps move the discussion forward.
Attached Images
 
prithwi-81 is offline   (22) Thanks
Old 6th February 2017, 23:13   #24
Senior - BHPian
 
frankmehta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,865
Thanked: 2,216 Times
Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Thanks Prithwi.
I will elaborate on your post after reading it a couple of times. You, my friend, are an ENCYCLOPEDIA. Respect!

Another point Prithwi raised is 'additional expansion chamber.';
Maybe I am just increasing volumetric efficiency of the cooling system without actually increasing coolant volume. It's not a litre. It's 325 ml. Our dual circuit cooling system requires around 6 litres of coolant. Another 400 ml will not increase the load on the pump by much, though.

Here are two more diagrams, with the blue arrow in the first, showing where the Intercooler is attached.
Name:  Image1.jpg
Views: 1267
Size:  109.6 KB

Name:  IMG_0009.JPG
Views: 1183
Size:  173.0 KB

Last edited by frankmehta : 6th February 2017 at 23:15.
frankmehta is offline   (5) Thanks
Old 6th February 2017, 23:13   #25
BHPian
 
yzfrj's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: who cares
Posts: 778
Thanked: 118 Times
Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

So basically the GT TSI has a water to air intercooling setup, and this modification has increased the surface area of the intercooler, dropping intake air temps.

If this is the case, then I must say that I am either missing something or the designers must be daft to use the same coolant reservoir to cool the engine as well as the charge.

Frank, I am sorry to say that this also invalidates pretty much all the technical sounding explanations you ventured in your first post and the subsequent ones. It is hilarious at best, and misleading at worst.

EDIT: http://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo-...system-932402/

Last edited by yzfrj : 6th February 2017 at 23:22.
yzfrj is offline   (4) Thanks
Old 6th February 2017, 23:14   #26
BHPian
 
prithwi-81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 682
Thanked: 983 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
Coolant temperature sensor is attached to the reservoir itself. I think it's visible in photos.
I kept the car at standstill, and took screenshots at idling, 2000 rpm and 5000 rpm, before and after. It was a matter of 10 minutes and similar conditions, so I guess, it's fair ground for comparison.
Coolant temp sensor is post the radiator. The sensor in the expansion tank is the coolant level sensor.

Way this system works is: Thermostat opens mechanically at a particular temp, car has no control on that. It measures the temp after the Radiator and monitors cooling system. ECU doesn't measure coolant temps before the radiator, at least not in the GT from what I can recall.

Here is the dimensions of the OEM Radiator
Name:  Polo TSI Radiator - 6R0121253A.PNG
Views: 1070
Size:  14.9 KB

And the dimensions of the Secondary Radiator used for the intercooler.
Upping the Cool quotient: Add-on Coolant Cooling system on my GT TSI!-audi6r0145805e-radiator-dimensions.jpg

Hope this helps.

Last edited by moralfibre : 7th February 2017 at 09:35. Reason: Back to back posts.
prithwi-81 is offline   (6) Thanks
Old 6th February 2017, 23:24   #27
Senior - BHPian
 
frankmehta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,865
Thanked: 2,216 Times
Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Quote:
Originally Posted by yzfrj View Post
So basically the GT TSI has a water to air intercooling setup, and this modification has increased the surface area of the intercooler, dropping intake air temps.

If this is the case, then I must say that I am either missing something or the designers must be daft to use the same coolant reservoir to cool the engine as well as the charge.

Frank, I am sorry to say that this also invalidates pretty much all the technical sounding explanations you ventured in your first post and the subsequent ones. It is hilarious at best, and misleading at worst.

EDIT: http://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo-...system-932402/
You didn't see the diagrams? I am not an engineer, and the only validation I seek is the response that my car has to the mods I do! I am happy if she is happy. I hope we don't try to falsify or rubbish any claims I have made by quoting posts. I am not a keyboard warrior. I let my perceptions speak for my self. I hope that's clear.
frankmehta is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 6th February 2017, 23:31   #28
BHPian
 
prithwi-81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 682
Thanked: 983 Times
Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Quote:
Originally Posted by yzfrj View Post
So basically the GT TSI has a water to air intercooling setup, and this modification has increased the surface area of the intercooler, dropping intake air temps.

If this is the case, then I must say the designers must be daft to use the same coolant reservoir to cool the engine as well as the charge.

Frank, I am sorry to say that this also invalidates pretty much all the technical sounding explanations you ventured in your first post and the subsequent ones. It is hilarious at best, and misleading at worst.
Not exactly daft engineering. Its damn efficient in-fact. Plus the system totally eliminates turbo lag as the air goes from the turbo to the intake manifold directly. Also note the thermal efficiency of the Air to Water intercooler is much greater than that of an Air to Air intercooler. So you can get away with a smaller cooler. Also the Secondary radiator for the intercooler IS THE expansion tank for the intercooler.

All Audi 3.0T's use the same system, and the new M3's and the M5s also use the same system. Its compact, eliminates a LOT of piping, and more thermally efficient that the traditional air to air intercoolers found on the older cars, provided they are designed correctly. An M3 can do laps around BIC all day without overheating where as a Laura would give up in 11-15 laps. The key is designing the system capacity and flow properly.
prithwi-81 is offline   (10) Thanks
Old 6th February 2017, 23:31   #29
BHPian
 
yzfrj's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: who cares
Posts: 778
Thanked: 118 Times
Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
You didn't see the diagrams? I am not an engineer, and the only validation I seek is the response that my car has to the mods I do! I am happy if she is happy. I hope we don't try to falsify or rubbish any claims I have made by quoting posts. I am not a keyboard warrior. I let my perceptions speak for my self. I hope that's clear.
What is unclear is why you were harping about engine coolant temps when you should have been looking at intake air temps, or figuring out exactly where the sensors are.

It is one thing to state your observations as a matter of fact, quite another to try and confuse everyone with technical sounding explanations to support your observations.
yzfrj is offline   (7) Thanks
Old 6th February 2017, 23:35   #30
Senior - BHPian
 
frankmehta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,865
Thanked: 2,216 Times
Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Quote:
Originally Posted by yzfrj View Post
What is unclear is why you were harping about engine coolant temps when you should have been looking at intake air temps, or figuring out exactly where the sensors are.

It is one thing to state your observations as a matter of fact, quite another to try and confuse everyone with technical sounding explanations to support your observations.
I didn't mention anywhere that my coolant temperature has varied. Actually, wait. If I have, I will edit that. It could be an error.
But I do maintain, Coolant temperature on OBD and cluster has remained the same
frankmehta is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mahindra Auto Quotient 2011 Turbojc Shifting gears 0 29th December 2011 23:41
Hyundai i20 1.2L Asta - It's not cool; it's uber cool! manz Test-Drives & Initial Ownership Reports 49 28th January 2011 18:12
Mahindra Auto Quotient 2010 -- I won West Zone Finals theragingbull Shifting gears 36 15th January 2011 18:28
Mahindra Thar and the Drool Quotient !! DKG 4x4 Vehicles 255 5th August 2010 14:41
Your GQ - Glamour Quotient ! rm_arjuna Shifting gears 22 8th March 2009 20:07


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 17:11.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks