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Old 6th February 2017, 23:40   #31
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Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

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Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
I didn't mention anywhere that my coolant temperature has varied. Actually, wait. If I have, I will edit that. It could be an error.
But I do maintain, Coolant temperature on OBD and cluster has remained the same
Coolant temp will stay the same because whatever you've done has affected a completely different loop. Fire up your OBD reader again, and log Intake Air Temps and I bet you will see a drop.
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Old 6th February 2017, 23:46   #32
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Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

I got to drive Frank's car before he had installed the additional cooler as well as post it. While his other mods had already made his faster, responsive and fun to drive; there was still a noticeable difference in the car post the installation of the cooler.

The car seemed to be developing a lot more boost hence making it even more responsive. The torque appeared to have improved with the car effortlessly pulling and accelerating even between 2k-3k RPM on 4th gear. It really did make the car a hoot to drive.

While rightly said by Prithwi that pre and post install data logging would be beneficial to measure the effectiveness of a mod; that said the on hand real world experience too gave an indication of the effectiveness of this mod on the car.

Also the concern on the failure of the water pumps is a valid concern and time only will tell if the added coolant volume would take its toll on the pump; as mentioned by Frank a 325ml on 6000ml total initial volume is a 5% increase which should ideally be under the manufacturing tolerance limit of the pump. Also given that it is a closed loop circuit with no change in flow rate (through change in diameter) the chances of this impacting the water pump should ideally be minimal if at all.

The device is focussing on improving thermal efficiency of the engine hence enabling the car to generate more useful power.
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Old 7th February 2017, 00:03   #33
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Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamsukh View Post
I got to drive Frank's car before he had installed the additional cooler as well as post it. While his other mods had already made his faster, responsive and fun to drive; there was still a noticeable difference in the car post the installation of the cooler.

The car seemed to be developing a lot more boost hence making it even more responsive. The torque appeared to have improved with the car effortlessly pulling and accelerating even between 2k-3k RPM on 4th gear. It really did make the car a hoot to drive.

While rightly said by Prithwi that pre and post install data logging would be beneficial to measure the effectiveness of a mod; that said the on hand real world experience too gave an indication of the effectiveness of this mod on the car.

Also the concern on the failure of the water pumps is a valid concern and time only will tell if the added coolant volume would take its toll on the pump; as mentioned by Frank a 325ml on 6000ml total initial volume is a 5% increase which should ideally be under the manufacturing tolerance limit of the pump. Also given that it is a closed loop circuit with no change in flow rate (through change in diameter) the chances of this impacting the water pump should ideally be minimal if at all.

The device is focussing on improving thermal efficiency of the engine hence enabling the car to generate more useful power.
See as it sits I HIGHLY doubt its doing anything. The impact you felt may have been the result of a cooler engine post installation rather than this aux cooler sitting post the coolant expansion tank, without any airflow thru it and also placed right NEXT to the hot side of the turbo charger. It will heatsoak in a heartbeat after 2-3 pulls.

Car cannot make more boost if its not TUNED for it. Adding cooling does nothing to tune. Car is tuned for xPSI of boost, no matter what you do, it will continue to make xPSI of boost.

Sorry but 'real world feel' that does not make any engineering sense.

Find a similarly modded GT TSI, without the cooler. Do an IAT, Engine Temp and Ignition Timing angle log on the car with 3-4 back to back pulls in 3rd gear. Then do the same in Franks car. That'll tell the true tale.

Last edited by prithwi-81 : 7th February 2017 at 00:04.
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Old 7th February 2017, 00:22   #34
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Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Quote:
Originally Posted by prithwi-81 View Post
See as it sits I HIGHLY doubt its doing anything. The impact you felt may have been the result of a cooler engine post installation rather than this aux cooler sitting post the coolant expansion tank, without any airflow thru it and also placed right NEXT to the hot side of the turbo charger. It will heatsoak in a heartbeat after 2-3 pulls.

Car cannot make more boost if its not TUNED for it. Adding cooling does nothing to tune. Car is tuned for xPSI of boost, no matter what you do, it will continue to make xPSI of boost.

Sorry but 'real world feel' that does not make any engineering sense.

Find a similarly modded GT TSI, without the cooler. Do an IAT, Engine Temp and Ignition Timing angle log on the car with 3-4 back to back pulls in 3rd gear. Then do the same in Franks car. That'll tell the true tale.

Boost pressure is not the right yardstick here, but one concrete fact is that if all the sensors in the engine send a favourable signal to the ECU, the ECU shifts to it's highest map, and a remapped engine can be made to produce a higher boost pressure if the ECU gives it the green signal. It's all about the signal one of the sensors is sending out to my ECU after this mod.
Attached herewith is the changes made in the remap done on this car itself.

Upping the Cool quotient: Add-on Coolant Cooling system on my GT TSI!-fb_img_1482043079669.jpg
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Old 7th February 2017, 00:29   #35
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Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Quote:
Originally Posted by prithwi-81 View Post
See as it sits I HIGHLY doubt its doing anything. The impact you felt may have been the result of a cooler engine post installation rather than this aux cooler sitting post the coolant expansion tank, without any airflow thru it and also placed right NEXT to the hot side of the turbo charger. It will heatsoak in a heartbeat after 2-3 pulls.

Car cannot make more boost if its not TUNED for it. Adding cooling does nothing to tune. Car is tuned for xPSI of boost, no matter what you do, it will continue to make xPSI of boost.

Sorry but 'real world feel' that does not make any engineering sense.

Find a similarly modded GT TSI, without the cooler. Do an IAT, Engine Temp and Ignition Timing angle log on the car with 3-4 back to back pulls in 3rd gear. Then do the same in Franks car. That'll tell the true tale.
I agree that more thought needs to go into the optimum placement of the aux cooler to extract maximum benefits which would be an iterative exercise. However it currently providing a placebo effect is something on the other extreme which I believe might not necessarily be true.

Frank's car is already tuned with a remap and other mods which would allow it to develop more boost. The aux cooler could be one variable in the whole equation triggering the overall effectiveness of the car or rather of the other mods applied to the car which are causing a multiplicative effect. Hence the system as a whole is greater than sum of its parts.

While a data driven justification is always easier to digest, it would entail an exact spec to spec modded car to be compared with sans the aux cooler which might not be easy to get in the real world.

However Frank do try to measure the parameters mentioned by Prithwi in his post and share.
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Old 7th February 2017, 00:34   #36
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Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
Boost pressure is not the right yardstick here, but one concrete fact is that if all the sensors in the engine send a favourable signal to the ECU, the ECU shifts to it's highest map, and a remapped engine can be made to produce a higher boost pressure if the ECU gives it the green signal.
There are many maps in ECU with hundreds of variables. Not to forget, there are something called limiter maps. Suppose a particular boost value is set in limiter map, no matter what green signals the sensor sends, the ECU won't let the boost go up against the set value.

According to me, the gains what you have observed should be due to reduced IAT. For example in my S-Cross, I always felt the performance is better when "IAT" is lesser.
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Old 7th February 2017, 01:50   #37
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Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
Boost pressure is not the right yardstick here, but one concrete fact is that if all the sensors in the engine send a favourable signal to the ECU, the ECU shifts to it's highest map, and a remapped engine can be made to produce a higher boost pressure if the ECU gives it the green signal. It's all about the signal one of the sensors is sending out to my ECU after this mod.
Attached herewith is the changes made in the remap done on this car itself.

Attachment 1605040
Looks like ECM Titanium interface.
Any reason you prefer using this over WinOLS etc?
ECM Titanium does make life easier and help tweak maps quickly.
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Old 7th February 2017, 01:59   #38
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Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Water can't evaporate from the radiator, it's supposed to be water tight.

In any case, any cars engine compartment is designed for a certain performance over a certain period of time, to a certain crash safety, to pass a homologation test and such that it is easily repairable by a certain amount of training to experienced mechanical engineers.

By suggesting & praising such changes, it encourages others to carry out changes to the engine bay that may be very harmful in case of, say, a crash. Because the product you're adding isn't a plastic+paper air filter like a K&N, or a HID headlight sitting at the front, it is a metal object very close to the engine fire wall.


When testing, car companies don't see from an enthusiasts POV. They see how their regular customers is best served.

Last edited by GrammarNazi : 7th February 2017 at 02:05.
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Old 7th February 2017, 08:31   #39
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Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

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Originally Posted by GrammarNazi View Post
Water can't evaporate from the radiator, it's supposed to be water tight.

In any case, any cars engine compartment is designed for a certain performance over a certain period of time, to a certain crash safety, to pass a homologation test and such that it is easily repairable by a certain amount of training to experienced mechanical engineers.

By suggesting & praising such changes, it encourages others to carry out changes to the engine bay that may be very harmful in case of, say, a crash. Because the product you're adding isn't a plastic+paper air filter like a K&N, or a HID headlight sitting at the front, it is a metal object very close to the engine fire wall.


When testing, car companies don't see from an enthusiasts POV. They see how their regular customers is best served.
Thanks for your concern. The size and weight of the intercooler are negligible and are as safe or as dangerous as the other stock objects in the engine bay as they sit in the car. The intercooler is far from the firewall. You may not have noticed the photos.

They are mounted safely with clamps. I doubt any of this mumbo jumbo of 'homologation' holds for enthusiasts like us here. This is a small radiator that weighs 1.5 kilos and lies inertly near the headlight. For the gains it offers, I'd happily have sat on it in my car.
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Old 7th February 2017, 08:40   #40
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Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
For the gains it offers, I'd happily have sat on it in my car.
Not a bad idea, considering its current placement seems equally ineffective.

Last edited by Rehaan : 7th February 2017 at 13:57. Reason: Expanding, to avoid misinterpretation
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Old 7th February 2017, 08:58   #41
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Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftboost View Post
Looks like ECM Titanium interface.
Any reason you prefer using this over WinOLS etc?
ECM Titanium does make life easier and help tweak maps quickly.
Yes, this is ECM Titanium tuning software by Alientech. Advantage here is map drivers and makes life easier " if the maps are identified properly ". Win OLS is for advanced tuners and there is no spoon feeding here
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Old 7th February 2017, 09:39   #42
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Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmehta View Post
Here are two more diagrams, with the blue arrow in the first, showing where the Intercooler is attached.
Attachment 1605029
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Quoting Sankar from an old post of his. He might be able to enlighten us more.
Nothing much to add here Vidyut, apart from what others have already said. This should do nothing to make the engine perform better especially in the location its installed at (both in the circuit as well as physical mounting).

Instead if the Air-Water intercooler's radiator (item "j") was upgraded then maybe it could have made some difference if the stock charge-air-cooling system was under equipped for our hot weather.

Frank any idea where the IAT sensor is located in this engine? Is it after charge-air-cooler in the manifold?
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Old 7th February 2017, 09:45   #43
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Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Wouldn't the easiest way to gauge its effectiveness be to install it on a stock TSI?
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Old 7th February 2017, 09:50   #44
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Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Nothing much to add here Vidyut, apart from what others have already said. This should do nothing to make the engine perform better especially in the location its installed at (both in the circuit as well as physical mounting).
This is exactly what I was saying! One is the location in the circuit which is outside the loop and not inside the loop. Secondly at the back of the engine bay where it will not pull any cold air to "cool" the coolant. Both ways it's not supposed to do anything.

Only thing which I can speculate with my limited understanding is that this has done something to disturb the coolant flow in the charge air loop and the ECU is compensating by either running rich or adjusting the timing. This is what is being noticed. Now how this is fooling the ECU to run a different tune is anybody's guess right now.
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Old 7th February 2017, 09:57   #45
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Default Re: Upping the COOL quotient! Coolant Cooled Liquid Intercooler Cooling system in GT TSI! INDIA's Fi

Frank, how about this?

Disconnect the lines of coolant cooler and do a dyno / V Box run. Repeat the same with coolant cooler ( but make sure engine operating temperature is same)

This would "Prove" everything!!
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