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Old 5th April 2017, 19:41   #31
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Default re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Note the "water beading" effect -

Attachment 1626746
It looks good.

In comparison, water repelling isn't strong on a newly done 3M paint protection. This is right after a minor storm and some rain.





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Old 5th April 2017, 20:07   #32
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Default re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

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Originally Posted by Leoshashi View Post
My query, has any BHPian taken their services/anything similar?? How useful is it?? Or is it just a hoax??
Well there's already a thread in here - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ing-guide.html (A superb Car cleaning, polishing & detailing guide)

Here's a reality...

The hardness claimed by such nano/ceramic coatings are measured in Mohs scale which was invented in 18xx by Friedrich Moh to measure the thickness of minerals. Basically it means, talc < gypsum <...< Diamond. This means, talc has least hardness & Diamond the most & using gypsum talc can be scratched but not viceversa & Diamond can scratch any mineral in Mohs scale but not the viceversa.

So take a product like CQuartz, which is tested (SGS as international standards, like ARAI in India) for 2Mohs while Ceramic Pro is claimed to have tested on 9H!! Just remember, 9H is in terms of pencil scale & not Mohs scale.

Proof - http://ceramicpro.com/hydrophobic-co...sticsandtests/

Here's pencil hardness
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And Mohs scale hardness
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Looking at the scale above, most people (including yours truly) initially think 9H is the hardness of Corundum & I was like Wooooaaaahhhh!! But since it's you, I tried doing some research before you plan to plunge into the claims of Ceramic Pro claims. Not that its bad or anything, but I would learn the facts before getting it done. So, Thank you, to have given some work to my lazy brain due to which I too learned something today

Last edited by aargee : 5th April 2017 at 20:10.
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Old 5th April 2017, 20:07   #33
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Default re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

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Originally Posted by SunnyBoi View Post
This is utter hogwash. Pray tell me how a 30ml bottle, whose contents are 50% solvents will put even one micron layer thick coat on a car? Someone had done the math and said one will need 3 liters of such coating to get the 2-3 microns thickness almost every manufacturer claims. Infact most coating companies are dropping this claim and dont mention the amount of thickness added.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortis View Post
Sunnyboi : While you are very well versed wrt car detailing, one point of yours is a bit doubtful. You stated that you would need 3 lts of coating solution to achieve 3 microns thickness, then conservatively, because it is thicker you would need 20-30lts of car paint to cover an entire car to the average thickness of 100 microns. Or am I going wrong somewhere ?
Among the professional detailing community, why is there a debate on this topic? Don't we have gadgets to measure paint coating thickness? Why not just do a BEFORE/AFTER application test? Are these gadgets inaccurate?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjun Reddy View Post
Let's keep the cost aside. the purpose of this thread is to ideally see if these tall claims are true and the products really protect the car paint in the long run as compared to a sealant or a wax.
That is not necessarily the purpose of this thread. You cannot review a product or service rationally if you ignore its price.

Last edited by smartcat : 5th April 2017 at 20:11.
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Old 5th April 2017, 21:49   #34
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Default re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

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Originally Posted by Mortis View Post
Sunnyboi : While you are very well versed wrt car detailing
Haha, I am not. I'm just a dumb guy who who wants to have a decent looking car

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortis View Post
one point of yours is a bit doubtful. You stated that you would need 3 lts of coating solution to achieve 3 microns thickness, then conservatively, because it is thicker you would need 20-30lts of car paint to cover an entire car to the average thickness of 100 microns. Or am I going wrong somewhere ?
Like I said, the math was done by "someone". I cannot find the original source but I have elaborated further below. I cannot even fathom how it was done, I failed twice in Maths

You may be right, but I still think one bottle of coating will not give the sort of micron thickness claims manufacturers say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Among the professional detailing community, why is there a debate on this topic? Don't we have gadgets to measure paint coating thickness? Why not just do a BEFORE/AFTER application test? Are these gadgets inaccurate?
I have a paint thickness gauge with me however the ones we can afford won't give you the very exact readings. I end up using a PTG as tool to check a panel and decide whether to polish or not/know for sure if the panel has factory paint or is repainted.

There was a thread on one of the international detailing forums on this very same topic; a German coating manufacturer claimed 10-14 microns thickness from a 30ml (or was it a 50ml?) bottle and everyone there was curious to know whether the claims were true or false. The very same thread also had detailed explanations why even with the most accurate PTG devices it is impossible to get accurate readings of the thickness. From what I remember, the metal surface of the panel isnt flat at the micron level and there will be variations right from the metal panel up to the surface. Even then, lining up the PTG to the very same point of measurement after coating will require extreme precision, so much that even using lasers will not be sufficient.

I tried hard to google and get the thread link but unfortunately I did not come up with any results, it was over 3 years when I last read that thread. If you do find such literature, fell free to share.

The same forum had a thread where one guy applied waxes on a sheet of absolutely flat sheet of silicon wafer and scanned with an electron microscope to determine whats the real thickness of a coat of wax. He also tried layering the waxes and the results were interesting.

Anyways I feel we have gone far off course from the topic. I hope the mods will move the posts to the appropriate thread.

Last edited by SunnyBoi : 5th April 2017 at 21:52.
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Old 5th April 2017, 22:07   #35
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Default re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
3. Why choose expensive ceramic coating over detailing the car every 6 months (a practice I follow)?
Let me also analyze...

1. Get a CQuartz finish (this is what I prefer over Ceramic Pro) on my car for say 30K package on 5 PLUS years warranty & I get a sealant also on top of it. My visit to detailer is probably once a year with regular washes with water to remove dirt, keep aside Rs 1000 for it. So average cost per year is 30000/5 = Rs 6000

2. Once in 6 months, I go visit a detailer to get the job done; say wax coating that lasts only for 6 months (not with Collinite 476 for which the cost also goes higher considerably). If, IF, there're swirl marks, he's going to charge you for that for using compound & DA. Every time you use compound & DA, the paint at those place is going to loose some microns. Plus if there're minor scratches those have to be removed as well & charged on that. I don't know the cost for this because I've been doing this all myself & my costs are ultra low, so I'm safely assuming about Rs 7000 per visit FOR NOW on both interior & exterior which makes to 35000 for 5 years. What I don't include here is the price rise & tax every year.

Keeping cost aside, scratches with nails, accidental scratches with keys or the scratches caused by sand, fine grains are no way going to harm when I use ceramic/quartz/nano detailing. Also, I can let that watchman wash the car monthly without having to bother much on swirl marks for next 5 years.

Ideally both might sound the same or cost of 1 > 2, but again, we pay for what we get. A ceramic treatment + sealant compared to sealant or worst case a wax (costs lesser than 7K). Like I said in the dummies guide, its all up to us what we choose. We could even choose to live with swirl marks & no one can question including the manufacturer themselves.

PS - Once I was waiting at Anna Nagar signal & there was a middle aged man besides me, who asked if my Rx was new, I told him it was 17 years old & that kind of look in his face, the pride on my face, a little praise from a total stranger...is priceless!!

PPS - Couple of months ago, I was parking my CPR at my office, just then the security guy comes over & asks when did I buy this. I was laughing inside & told nearly 6 years ago. He reconfirmed if its 6 months or 6 years, I showed him the ODO clocked over 1.15 Lakh Km. That look, that pride again is priceless!!

PPPS - Hope you're aware about 3M PPF which costs arms & legs (Rs 550+ for a square feet) which works far superior to nano coatings, wax, sealant of kind. Do this once & for over 7+ years car remains neat & tidy, absolutely ZERO worries on swirl marks, watchman washes, minor scratches caused by keys

Last edited by aargee : 5th April 2017 at 22:14.
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Old 5th April 2017, 23:23   #36
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Default re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunnyBoi View Post

There was a thread on one of the international detailing forums on this very

The same forum had a thread where one guy applied waxes on a sheet of absolutely flat sheet of silicon wafer and scanned with an electron microscope to determine whats the real thickness of a coat of wax. He also tried layering the waxes and the results were interesting.
I am a strong believer in waxes, I think this is the link you were searching for.

Quote:
The first tests reported below used Collinite no 915 applied to clean 6 inch diameter silicon wafers using a damp microfibre cloth (as manufacturer's recommendations).
Four silicon wafers were used, with slight variations on the waxing technique as given below.

Wafer 1. Wax was applied thinly with damp cloth, left for 5 minutes to haze over and then buffed off with clean microfibre cloth. No great effort was applied.
Measured Thickness = 22.7 nm (in centre of wafer)

Wafer 2. Wax was applied thickly with damp cloth, left for 15 minutes to haze over and then buffed off with clean microfibre cloth. This layer required a fair degree of effort to remove compared to wafer 1.
Measured Thickness = 20.6 nm (in centre of wafer)

Wafer 3. Wax was applied thinly with damp cloth, left for 15 minutes to haze over and then buffed off with clean microfibre cloth. No great effort was necessary.
Measured Thickness = 15.9 nm (in centre of wafer)

Wafer 4. Wax was applied thinly with damp cloth and buffing with clean microfibre started immediately.
= Measured Thickness = 16.9 nm (in centre of wafer).

The actual wax thicknesses will be 2 to 3 nm less because of the native oxide layer as explained above. (I do have the exact values)


Second Coating Results - >

Quote:
Results: Adding a second layer

The four wafers measured yesterday had another coat of Collinite no 915 applied using a damp microfibre cloth (pretty nearly 24 hours after first coat)
The new layer was buffed off wafer 1 after about 5 minutes.
I could see that wafer 1 was obviously not completely dry when buffed, so I gave the other wafers another 5 minutes to fully dry, which may explain the results below.
The rig used ensures that the wafers are remeasured in the same position as for the first layer.

Wafer 1:
Thickness after first application: 22.7 nm
Thickness after 2nd application: 18.8 nm
Difference:- - 3.9 nm

Wafer 2:
Thickness after first application: 20.6 nm
Thickness after 2nd application: 23.8 nm
Difference:- +2.2 nm

Wafer 3:
Thickness after first application: 15.9 nm
Thickness after 2nd application: 25.0 nm
Difference:- +9.1 nm

Wafer 4:
Thickness after first application: 16.9 nm
Thickness after 2nd application: 27.8 nm
Difference:- +10.9 nm

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/foru...6&postcount=31
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Old 6th April 2017, 00:43   #37
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Default re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

Bit of coincidence. I looked into the Ceramic Pro-Coating thing the other day for my Alfa Romeo Spider.

http://ceramicpro-benelux.com

I came across them at a recent car show.

My Spider has had a so-called Protech surface treatment.

See http://protech.mc/en/traitement-surfaces-peintes/

Protech is in essence a teflon based product. It gets applied professionally with special machinery. It leaves your car looking as if it has had the best polish and wax job ever. And it will last for several years. You donít need to polish/wash your car (actually you need to refrain from traditional washing). Just hose it down with the high pressure washer, preferably with deminerised water so you donít even have to shammy down the car.

So your car always looks like newly waxed, with very little effort.

This CeramicPro is the next new thing. They had two cars on their stand. This product comes in different versions and they can apply it to just about any surface, even bricks! But usually they put it on your car

Including the seats, interior, hood (if you have a rag top like mine) wheels etc.

The result looks quite stunning. And in general the same advantages as with the Protech, although they claim this gives much better resistance against scratching.

They came round to my home to look at my spider. Unless the paint is new, it is very likely that your paint will need some pre-work. This Ceramic coating enhances everything. The gloss, but also the whirls or any scratch your paint has!

Protech / Ceramic cost the same here in the Netherlands, for a small car like my Spider about Euro 1500 (INR104.000), add another Euro 1000 (INR69.000) and you can see it is quite expensive.

But the results look very good, no more waxing and if you believe the Ceramic Pro folks a much more scratch resistant surface too.

Both Protech and Ceramic also have a positive effect on fading of the paint. (My Spider is red, of course, and red tends to fade badly!)

I havent decided to go ahead yet. My Spider had a full re-paint when I bought in some 15-17 years ago. So it has some scratches and other blemishes. So whatever I decide to do, I need to get the paint sorted first.


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Old 6th April 2017, 01:05   #38
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Default re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

Honestly, Regardless of how expensive car i own, I will think twice, Rather thrice before spending such an amount on my car, I might have done it if they would blindly give warranty for it, Without any terms & conditions, Even though if the warranty would be for 2 or 3 years! Also if yeah they do come up with something that would be scratch proof (Something that i can probably save your car by intentional damaged by keys or kids around your car) instead of scratch resistance i would have happily paid such hefty amounts, When it comes to water repellant, Frankly i don't really care if the water stays or drops down from my car, But for now i feel its a no no for me.

Using a micro fibre cloth for every car wash, And getting the car polished at a reputed source every 6 months or so have been doing great for me till now & i guess ill still stick to that till prices for these drop down or perhaps they come up with something more useful.
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Old 6th April 2017, 02:52   #39
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Default re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanveer_2558 View Post
Also if yeah they do come up with something that would be scratch proof (Something that i can probably save your car by intentional damaged by keys or kids around your car) instead of scratch resistance i would have happily paid such hefty amounts
I think you may possibly be able to fulfill your dreams! One of these coating/detailing companies has come up with a coating which may not be scratch-proof, but is self healing. It is mentioned on this site somewhere. I think there is a video of how it responds to a hard wire brush. I also seem to remember that the application process is comparable to a respray. And that it probably costs as much. Somebody will remember what this is, and perhaps which thread it deatured in.
Quote:
When it comes to water repellant, Frankly i don't really care if the water stays or drops down from my car, But for now i feel its a no no for me.
Isn't is just a way to get good-looking photos of all those high-surface-tension droplets? As you say, what does it matter if it repels water? The same trick with oil would be more interesting. Resistence to dust/dirt and grease is what is desirable.

Paying for the skills has been mentioned as one of the reasons for the very high cost of ceramic/nano treatments. Admitted, the removal of faults is something that should be done with expertise. Why should the actual treatment not be a case of wipe on and walk away? The bottle might be expensive, but there is no reason that it should be any harder, or require greater skills to apply than wax. And if there is, then it can be developed out.

It is over a year since I was looking into nano/etc treatments. If I remember rightly, companies are producing this sort of stuff. Perhaps they must keep some differential between home and commercial use, for the sake of their commercial market, but, if I remember correctly, Companies are producing such products. (Ultimate? Optimum? Not sure which now.)

But... Perhaps, here in India, with lower labour costs, the difference might not be as much as in other economies.
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Old 6th April 2017, 10:36   #40
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Default re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

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Originally Posted by Arjun Reddy View Post
Haven't done a write up on the forum because I actually wanted to see the results before I write up a review. It's been slightly over a month and a half since the car was coated.
Can this be done on a 4 year old car which has its fair share of scratches & swirl marks? Or is ceramic coating best on a brand new car? Will getting it done on an older car make the scratches & swirl marks less visible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aargee View Post
Get the car to the road, the paint or the looks are waiting to be damaged by bird dropping, tree sap, tar spot, iron particles, salt, contaminated water, even fuel basically every other thing on road

If I'm particular about the looks of the car, I should not be taking it out. Unfortunately that cannot be done & right from plastics to leather to metal to glass everything is going to get damaged soon on prolonged usage
I don't think the problem is that severe. As long as basic care is taken of the car with bi-annual detailing, she looks great. Here is my ex-daily driven car which was parked under the sun all day, by a very busy main road. This is how she looked at 60,000 km.

All I want is a clean & shiny car. Am not like the pros on this forum (e.g. Vid6639) who'll go looking for small scratches & swirl marks .









Quote:
Originally Posted by abhishek46 View Post
With almost everybody doing these treatments, I am feeling ashamed that i have not done anything at all for my 4+ year old Polo.
Nothing like that. I don't get anything done besides detailing every 6 months and some basic precautions (listed in my idiot's guide article).
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Old 6th April 2017, 10:53   #41
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Default re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Can this be done on a 4 year old car which has its fair share of scratches & swirl marks? Or is ceramic coating best on a brand new car? Will getting it done on an older car make the scratches & swirl marks less visible?
Ceramic coating will not make existing scratches or swirl marks less visible.

But the process that is done before the application of ceramic coating will. That is, if there are minor scratches, then it is first removed with rubbing compound. Because the 4 year old car would have lost its shine, polishing is done to make it look shiny. Swirl marks are moved too.

Then ceramic coating is done, to keep it looking new for 2 to 5 years.

4 year old pre-owned A-star when I got it from True Value -

Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?-dsc02028.jpg

The same car after treatment -

Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?-img20160905wa0017.jpg

Last edited by smartcat : 6th April 2017 at 10:54.
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Old 6th April 2017, 10:58   #42
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Default re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Can this be done on a 4 year old car which has its fair share of scratches & swirl marks? Or is ceramic coating best on a brand new car? Will getting it done on an older car make the scratches & swirl marks less visible?
Removing scratches and swirls is a part of the prep process. Any detailer has to compound/polish a surface so that swirls/scratches are minimised prior to the coating process. If the coating is just applied on an already swirled surface, it will offer protection but it probably will not look any better than before.

For example this is a 2005 camry that belongs to a friend. It has over 2 lakhs on the odo and the paint has never been cared before. This car has only a normal wax, not even fancy ones let alone a coating. The prep makes 95% of the difference and here is the proof. Do watch in FHD.




Last edited by SunnyBoi : 6th April 2017 at 11:01.
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Old 6th April 2017, 11:47   #43
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This was exactly the discussion I have been wanting to have since a long time. I had put my queries about this ceramic coatings on the 'detailing' thread but I am glad there is now a separate thread for this.

I myself have been doing a lot of research on the ceramic coating ever since it came to my knowledge and have spoken to a couple of detailers too who are promoting this product and I too like most have not been convinced (even though highly tempted at times) with doing this process. The only reason for my to keep away from this as of now is because of their clause of 'warranty of XX years provided the cars is looked after properly' i.e. washed in a particular way, parked in under the shade, etc.

In reality and practically these ideal conditions are not possible. My car is black in colour, is fortunately parked in a basement but is washed everyday by a local guy appointed to wash cars in my building. I don't think he is even going to be bothered about spending extra time on your car to ensure it is washed in the manner recommended by these ceramic coating detailers when he has so many other cars to wash in the mornings. So spending this kind of money on a coating which claims to be harder to protect your paint and still having to take the same kind of care needed after you do a regular detailing job makes no sense!!
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Old 6th April 2017, 12:53   #44
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Default re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

The idea of not having to polish and detail your car for years altogether and still retain the new look is very enticing. However,
How would someone go about getting body work done (say, post some accidental damage) on a coated car?
I presume it would be something like this:
1. Get the coating removed from the damaged panel/s. (How easy is it to remove, can regular body shops remove it or does it need special equipment?)
2. Get the damaged panel fixed and repainted.
3. Get the panel coated again.

Would steps #1 and #3 add substantial time and cost to the process? Also, cost of #1 and #3 will likely come out of pocket for the owner as I can't imagine insurance covering it. Given that body damage to the cars in our cities is inevitable, I think many folks would need to go through this at the time of body repairs.
Any feedback from from someone having done this already ?

Last edited by mustang_shelby : 6th April 2017 at 12:56.
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Old 6th April 2017, 13:02   #45
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Default re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mustang_shelby View Post
How would someone go about getting body work done (say, post some accidental damage) on a coated car?
I presume it would be something like this:
1. Get the coating removed from the damaged panel/s. (How easy is it to remove, can regular body shops remove it or does it need special equipment?)
2. Get the damaged panel fixed and repainted.
3. Get the panel coated again.

Would steps #1 and #3 add substantial time and cost to the process? Also, cost of #1 and #3 will likely come out of pocket for the owner as I can't imagine insurance covering it. Given that body damage to the cars in our cities is inevitable, I think many folks would need to go through this at the time of body repairs.
Any feedback from from someone having done this already ?
Amazingly, I have experience on this topic too, because my A-star had a fender bender. The car has not arrived from the dealership yet.

1) The "coating" is not something you can touch, feel and "remove". The liquid chemically binds to the paint.

2) Damaged panels are being repainted right now. Will be getting the car next week.

3) For now, I have no plans to give repaired panels (bumper/bonnet) a fresh coat. But I might get this done in the future. First I want to see if there is a visible difference between old and new panels.

4) Insurance does not cover the coating.
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