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Old 13th April 2017, 14:54   #91
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Various top end dealers in The Netherlands offer these ceramic pro coatings. They have their own technicians trained and certified. But even Louwman (Alfa, Jeep, Abarth, Lexus, Toyota ) offers these services. Just an extra option when you buy your car. But it's a lot of money, so relatively few people willing to shell out for this.

Jeroen

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 14th April 2017 at 19:35. Reason: Typo.
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Old 13th April 2017, 17:31   #92
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Default Re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

Coming to the financial aspect of this, from the POV of a normal car buyer, who would most probably sell his/her car after 8 years, what value will this 20-40k spending add to the resale price ? If I am not wrong, 70-80% of shine can retained even after 8 years with regular waxing and not giving your car to the society cleaner.
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Old 14th April 2017, 00:23   #93
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Default Re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

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Coming to the financial aspect of this, from the POV of a normal car buyer, who would most probably sell his/her car after 8 years, what value will this 20-40k spending add to the resale price ? ... ... ...
I would say none.

I would say that it adds no value to resale price even on the day you collect it, newly treated, from the detailer. The only resale advantage you get, all other things being equal, is that the car should look so good it is easier to sell.

So, when doing this, the finance has to be justified as something you want for your car, and the only return is the pleasure of the experience.

But, if you find yourself as a seller in this position, of course, you can try
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Old 14th April 2017, 01:54   #94
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Default Re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
It can't even protect itself from bird crap which falls out of the air onto every car ever made. Nowhere near "good enough."

And why do you mention rust? rust is nothing to do with this.
I mentioned rust, as that is the central reason why car bodies are even painted. Perhaps it may be that I am thinking a little different from other people, but factually the paint in earlier times was considered a way to protect the metal - they never considered the paint needing protection in itself.

Chemically, painting has come a long way from the times the cars were brush finished and set to dry for days, to these times where just the right amount of spray is robotically coated over the body and is set to dry in mere hours. Even in the nano-chemistry of the painting process has changed a lot, the primer itself is manufactured in a way that it can protect from rust, UV damage and stone-chipping, even if the paint layer does not. The body is electro-statically (ELPO) charged prior to the application so that the primer & paint stick to the surface naturally.

The clear-coat is the third and final layer of protection which also is chemically formulated to bind to the paint, harden and then protect from UV, dust, smoke and different forms of water. Companies such as DuPont and AkzoNobel have come this far and pumped perhaps many billions of dollars into R&D, yes the paint is still not as ideal as one would like it but this is as good as it gets. Manufacturers did try powder coating the body which is superbly resistant (like the Godrej almirahs) but they'll come out flaking in mere months if exposed to sun.

My point being that initially (even as recent as a decade ago), paints were seen as a protective layer for the body. Then came 3M with all the talk of swirls which are perhaps half a micron deep and cannot be even seen unless one looks for them, that was bad enough and now we have protective wraps, protective films and ceramic/quartz coating. I sense another product will come soon to remove swirls and minor imperfections from these coatings as well.

I'm not saying that anyone who goes for these products are wasting their time or money, no. Anything can be considered frivolous, even this very post so I'm not pointing to that. As the thread is asking a question I'm merely giving my opinion. My question shall always remain - if the protective coat needs protection then how far is too far. BTW I've faced innumerable bird droppings/tar/enamel paint drops/hard mud over the paint the past 9 years, also the surface was washed by a half-skilled person using a non-microfibre cloth for years, yet its my opinion and also of others that the car surface looks "almost new" and people even ask me if I get it detailed to which my answer is of course, no. The pre-existing surface is more rugged than we think, perhaps.

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Old 14th April 2017, 02:41   #95
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Default Re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

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I sense another product will come soon to remove swirls and minor imperfections from these coatings as well.
There is already one such product in use.

These coatings need specialized polishes to remove swirls, which ensure that swirls are removed while impact on the ceramic coating is minimum. The companies which provide these coatings have developed special polishes as well.

Quote:
My question shall always remain - if the protective coat needs protection then how far is too far.
This remains the million dollar question.

Regards,
Shashi
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Old 14th April 2017, 03:48   #96
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Default Re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

These coatings are actually supposed to be for protection of the paint coat and not the metal since metal is already protected by the original paint.

But the original paint can be protected or beautified by good old wax, something like the original orange Waxpol or Collinite 476.
Also waxing your dear car with your own hands also gives a kind of satisfaction.
It's a good workout too if you're using hard wax
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Old 14th April 2017, 13:02   #97
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Default Re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

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I mentioned rust, as that is the central reason why car bodies are even painted. Perhaps it may be that I am thinking a little different ... ... ...
You are thinking way off topic. Paint is basic protection; these coatings are, whilst being protective, luxury show-off-gleam cosmetic treatments. The key word here is luxury. Even the cheapest take them outside of affordability by all but the well-off enthusiast.

And really, what paint does is further not-to-the-point. Yes, it has improved since the days when my parents' Fords used to develop rust holes in a few years. That is not disputed. In fact, in other countries, manufacturers routinely give five-year-or-more body/paint warranties. Paint is great. The question is... do you want not shine, but super-shine? And is the result really super-shine, and, if so, for how long?

And, of course, yes, the real enthusiasts are out there every week with the clay and the wax. Not to mention the misguided ones that are taking a polishing machine to their cars at a drop of a hat and wearing their paint away. Different topics.
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Old 14th April 2017, 18:00   #98
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Default Re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

Well said & a very practical post

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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
The question is... do you want not shine, but super-shine? And is the result really super-shine, and, if so, for how long?
Not just super-shine, even the protection on existing shine will last long for years together. This morning, I happened to observe my neighbor's Caffeine Brown Ciaz parked neatly under a tree with all its shine lost turned into a plain brown color in last 2 years. Had they paid a little attention from the day out of the showroom, not as much as ceramic pro, but atleast to the extent of wax, that poor thing would've been gleaming now.

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Not to mention the misguided ones that are taking a polishing machine to their cars at a drop of a hat and wearing their paint away. Different topics.
Well said
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Old 14th April 2017, 19:52   #99
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Not just super-shine, even the protection on existing shine will last long for years together. This morning, I happened to observe my neighbor's Caffeine Brown Ciaz parked neatly under a tree with all its shine lost turned into a plain brown color in last 2 years. Had they paid a little attention from the day out of the showroom, not as much as ceramic pro, but atleast to the extent of wax, that poor thing would've been gleaming now.

This is precisely the reason why I created this thread. Personally, I am not concerned about the benefits it will fetch me in terms of resale. All I want is that my car should remain shiny till the time its with me.

Just to give you an example, this is my 17 year old Maruti 800, still with original paint(except the hood). She has never been "professionally" detailed. I have spent way too much money and energy in keeping her in this shape. I never leave her unattended, because I fear that one miscreant who likes to rub his fingernails/keys against car paint. I started this thread with an intention of gaining some insight about these products which can protect my upcoming car, with least effort.

Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?-20170204_072532_bw1.jpg

Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?-20170204_072708.jpg

I thank all dear BHPians for keeping this discussion alive.

Regards,
Shashi
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Old 14th April 2017, 22:51   #100
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Default Re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

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I started this thread with an intention of gaining some insight about these products which can protect my upcoming car, with least effort.
Absolutely. it is a luxury product bringing sper-gleam to those who can afford it, but also a product bringing gleam with minimum work... to those who can afford it.

I'm in the latter category. The products that always get me excited are the ones that promise me savings, not of money, but of muscle. I'm lazy. Sure, I love my car to shine, and no shiny car looks shinier than a deep-black shiny car, but not enough to wash/rinse/clay/wax/buff on a frequent basis.

But currently, I count myself out of affording it.
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Old 15th April 2017, 19:52   #101
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Default Re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

Basically these coatings serve as a long term wax/sealant. Nothing more or less, just increased lifespan due to better bonding and a bit harder and more protective.

Its just an option for someone doesnt want to polish wax and seal their cars every 3-6 months but still want the protection. Most of these coatings offer generally only last only 2 odd years. Opti Coat Pro is the only one that lasts much longer along with the discontinued consumer version Opti Coat 2.
These coatings are cost effective when you apply the coating yourself after getting it well cleaned and polished by a detailer since they lock in the paint in the condition it was in pre coating.
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Old 15th April 2017, 20:57   #102
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Opti Coat Pro is the only one that lasts much longer along with the discontinued consumer version Opti Coat 2.
These coatings are cost effective when you apply the coating yourself after getting it well cleaned and polished by a detailer since they lock in the paint in the condition it was in pre coating.
That's one of the horrible product!! Curing time is approximately 6+ hours in Chennai's Weather & the protection is kind of OKish compared to to 45 minutes curing time of Ultima Paint Guard that lasts 1.5 years without any maintenance.
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Old 16th April 2017, 02:39   #103
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Hey I live in Borivali East but don't remember seeing this store at Dattani Park. What brand of ceramic products does he use? If you live in Borivali, I would love to see your car which would help me take a call. Please do PM me the number of PMP Cars.
Hey Shashi,

I have PMed you his number. We can definetly meet up. Probably once you see the car, you can get an exact idea of the coat.
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Old 16th April 2017, 09:20   #104
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Can any one shed some light on using this coating on vintage, classic or old cars ( 30 years + older) ?
Would it be technically wise to do such detailing on original paint which has faced natures forces for so many years ?
Older paints are all single stage. The composition of the paint will also differ but the paint thickness used to be a lot more in the early days than now, technically you should have a lot of paint to polish. Old paints would have dried up so they will need specialist attention, including "moisturizing" the paint to properly restore it.

Most coatings are formulated to work on clear coats, however classic cars deserve a really good prep and polish, then a couple of layers of very good carnauba wax IMHO than a coating to make them look the best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BB311 View Post
Coming to the financial aspect of this, from the POV of a normal car buyer, who would most probably sell his/her car after 8 years, what value will this 20-40k spending add to the resale price ? If I am not wrong, 70-80% of shine can retained even after 8 years with regular waxing and not giving your car to the society cleaner.
I had a friend with a santro that wasn't used for 2 years. It was parked under a tree, covered with a ton of bird poop, paint and headlights totally faded. I spent a day cleaning and a light polish on the car. He listed the car for sale in the evening, in one hour it was sold for the price that my friend wanted, that too the buyer paid full cash! during demonetization days!

The point I'm trying to make is that cars that look clean have a perception that they were properly cared for. To answer your question My friend got a lot more money than what he expected, so I can safely say resale value had increased

I will give you an example on coatings are beneficial. My Cedia has single stage paint, yes there is NO clear coat on any panel on my car plus the paint is super soft. The car was brutually polished couple of times, there is absolutely no paint left on the original panels.

Any detailer worth his salt wouldn't touch a car like mine, it is very very easy to burn through the paint and expose the primer.

Notice the dark primer showing up in these pictures.

Center line on the bonnet

Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?-img_20151223_160024.jpg

side ridges on the bonnet

Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?-img_20151223_160038.jpg

Underneath door handles

Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?-img_20151223_160115.jpg

These are only a few examples. The whole car has such ugly abuse marks.

So ow does one effectively protect such paint? The only logical answer is something that lasts long, does not need polishing often and adds some sort of scratch resistance. It took me 6 months of experimenting but found a coating that suited my requirements to the T. So I detailed the car in June. This is how the car looked ~2 months post detailing :



I should also add that I had an unfortunate accident at high speeds and the only damage on the paint was smudges, you can see them on the passenger side front fender and passenger doors. The paint was surprisingly not damaged much, I want to say the coating helped in limiting the damage but I cannot say for sure.

After june, nothing was done to the car except regular washing. I couldn't be bothered to fix the scratches and dings I've collected since then, probably will do that in the next session. This video was taken in the first weekof April, 9+ months after protection :



So the beading has weakened a bit but the protection is still there. I can always top up the car with a good quick detailer or wax if I ever want the car to look like it did on day one.

Summary is coatings work, although it is better to do your research and find out which works for you the best. Price is highly subjective, I did all the work on my own and cost me 1/10th of the cheapest ceramic pro package mentioned here, although the price of compounds,polishes, machines, pads etc needed to attain this finish will cost a couple of lakhs. If you're serious about getting excellent results, you have to spend couple of lakhs on products, machines etc, do a LOT of practice, end up burning few paint panels, repaint them and start over, or pay a professional to give you a shiny gleaming car for 1/10th this cost. I have had a few friends who bought rotary polishers, pads , compounds and a lot of microfiber towels thinking yes shining a car is easy and have given up after doing a couple of panels. Polishing is a very touchy feely subject and one cannot learn anything by observing others or watching youtube videos. The paint on different panels even on a single car reacts differently, a good detailer must adjust his technique constantly to get consistent results. I hope I explained the cost factor when it comes to detailing.

There are few experts here who can give a much detailed explanation but unfortunately they've been specifically told not to do so. In the end, the community loses with a lot of misinformation thrown around by armchair experts. Unfortunately there is too much unnecessary fear mongering going on, it seems a couple of members here have had bad experiences with products or detailers and they are painting the whole detailing community with the same brush.

Last edited by Vid6639 : 16th April 2017 at 15:24. Reason: removing mention of high speed.
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Old 16th April 2017, 15:06   #105
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Default Re: Ceramic Coating - Is it really useful?

A very non-technical take; correct me if I'm wrong...

First there was paint (OK, on top of primer and undercoat). Then came fancier paint, ie metalic, and then came other with-depth finishes like opalescent. Clear coat came with these fancier, better-looking surfaces. So clear coat is a relatively new thing. Do the cheaper "flat" colours get a clear coat even these days?

Nothing new in the idea. If anyone has ever seen a varnished boat hull, they will know what I mean: it looks so deep. And it is achieved by applying many coats, with great skill. Enormously expensive! And would once have needed annual attention.

I'm still tempted to ceramic-coat my black Polo, but yesterday I scuffed the front bumper (not terribly visible, but there none-the-less) so that is one more thing I'd have to get back to perfect before ceramic/nano would be worthwhile
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