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Old 22nd November 2011, 19:56   #91
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Default Re: How do you improve an Ikon's brakes??

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Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
you could look up brake upgrades for the fiesta Mk5 on european online stores, cos as far as i know, they will fit.
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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
- Get the entire brake-assembly thoroughly examined by a workshop personnel/service guy. Parts like brake-cables might require your attention. If the brake-pads need replacement (and in all probability, they do) get them changed. Either approach Ford in India, or look for brake-pads online. The Fiesta Mk IV and the Ikon are essentially, the same cars. The Fiesta is a hatch though.

- Get new tyres. People underestimate the importance of tyres and modify the engine for performance and the suspension for handling, but what they don't realize is that tyres are the only things that are in constant contact with the road. A good set of tyres will ensure that your car will brake well and handle well.
mk4, sorry.
My bad.
do it incrementally, though.
one, try, two, try, that ways
Fiesta-centre i think has slightly bigger rotors too..
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Old 22nd November 2011, 20:15   #92
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Default Re: How do you improve an Ikon's brakes??

I have tried everything possible with my year 2000 Ikon 1.6. Nothing worked.

I changed the front disc rotors, no use. I changed the front brake pads, no use. I changed the rear brake pads, no use. I bled the system 3 times at Ford, hardly improved to justify doing it yet again or even doing it at all in the first place.

I also know that Ikon's manufactured from 2004 onward had a improved brake booster and master cylinder. The difference can be felt easily. There is a catch though. The newer cars feel very sharp at moderate speeds. At highway speeds, the pedal feels like you are stepping on a plonk of wood. The wooden feeling was not there on my Ford. All that it needed was a lot of pressure on the brake pedal and car would actually stop. However, my cars brakes too felt inadequate at city speeds. The brakes are next to nil with 4 people and luggage. The only work around is to plan your braking and also get used to understanding the braking distance of your car. This is how I drove and never rear ended anyone. With this in mind, there are time's I even had the confidence to drive at some insane speeds.

Ford also confirmed it is not possible to upgrade to the improved braking system used on newer Ikon cars. What you can do is replace the master cylinder and brake booster with a new unit of the same design. You must remember that your car is old and the effectiveness of these 2 parts are critical in the cars braking ability. Without enough brake line pressure, the pads don't really press hard enough against the discs and drum units. This is something I have not tried. However, I am confident this will improve overall braking.

Oh and I sold my car. Picking up a T Jet Plus.
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Old 22nd November 2011, 20:22   #93
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Default Re: How do you improve an Ikon's brakes??

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Honeybee,
I am not sure if there is another thread that discusses this topic. Yet I am posting my observation / experience on 2005 Flair 1.3.
A sudden braking with the clutch released, always locks the wheels. Beacuse of this I ran over 2 dogs straying in a dark region of a highway. I still regret for the same. In a second occassion, I would have almost hit a bullock cart. Braking with the engine coupled, gives a better braking and avoids wheel lock.
These brakes are vacuum assisted, hence never try braking with engine off. I think an ABS unit can help.
How much has your odo clocked? When was the brake system ovetrhauled recently? I think, the rear brake is self adjusting, need confirmation on this.
The bolded text should have been placed after the note on the ABS. I only wanted the IKON with an ABS, and never suggested a retrofitment of ABS. I wanted to insist that I could have avoided hitting the dogs if only Ikon was equipped with ABS. Its a pity that Ford India does not offer it to us.

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Originally Posted by 2500cc View Post
Retro-fitting ABS is not recommended. Also, the ABS doesn't increase the braking efficiency, it just sees to that the wheels doesn't lock-up under hard braking, wet roads, loose gravel, etc.,

IMO, it is the effectiveness of the brake booster, that increases the braking efficiency
Starting from the boost ratio of the brake booster, the dia of the master cylinder, dia of caliper piston & rear wheel cylinder, area of brake pads & brake shoes, dia of front rotor disc & brake drum and finally the adhesion between the tyre & road surface are the factors affecting braking.
In India there is hardly any choice to tweak the components listed above. And modifying any of the above needs proper designing, testing and validation. In the European and American markets one can get high friction and low drag brake pads & shoes. Unfortunately we dont have some one who sells such reliable stuff.
A wider tyre can help a little, but at the cost of fuel economy.
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2. You cannot fit an ABS on Ikon, unlike what ilagpop has suggested.
I haven't suggested / advised anyone to retrofit an ABS unit.
4. Get used to engine braking. Over the years I have got used to this and don't feel as nervous about Ikon brakes as before.
Yes, I have tried it too. Engine braking helps.
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Old 22nd November 2011, 22:07   #94
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Default Re: How do you improve an Ikon's brakes??

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Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
I have read on TBHP about the poor braking ability of the Ikon, specially the earlier models. ...

.... However there's still a lot to be desired.
Affirmative.
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Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
On a slope with the engine switched off, the footbrakes are ineffective in stopping the car from rolling backwards, even if the slope is gentle. Does this indicate the pads and liners need replacement?
Well, with the engine switched off you should not expect the brakes to function. Please make sure of that. We lose the whole point of power brakes. btw, hows the handbrakes working. I normally use the handbrakes and it works real good. If not, time to check the liners and drum itself, if needed.
Quote:
While on the move, the brakes are clearly inadequate for high speeds, and even when speeds are in 60s
Not really in the 60's, the problem comes when you are above 100 or 120. The lack of bite, really makes you lose your cool. ikon owners NEED to get used to it.
Quote:
What is the root cause of the poor braking performance? Is it the pads/liners? Is it something else?
IMO, in most cases the root cause is inadequate braking components. It starts from the smaller rotor/pads to the inadequately(not improper) designed hydraulic components.
Quote:
And what is the solution for it?
The only solution would be to completely upgrade the whole system, which.. well.. is impractical.
But, a viable solution would be to go for after market performance brakes. Slotted rotors, performance pads, and yes, finally 185 section grippy tyres.

EDIT:
ilangop has correctly mentioned the parts that need upgrade. Which is not really practical, or cost effective. Hence my comment to go for performance brakes.
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Originally Posted by ilangop View Post
Starting from the boost ratio of the brake booster, the dia of the master cylinder, dia of caliper piston & rear wheel cylinder, area of brake pads & brake shoes, dia of front rotor disc & brake drum and finally the adhesion between the tyre & road surface are the factors affecting braking.

Last edited by dhanushs : 22nd November 2011 at 22:10.
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Old 22nd November 2011, 22:38   #95
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Default Re: How do you improve an Ikon's brakes??

Replacement of brake pads can be done every 15-20k thousand kilometers. Also depends upon the driving style. But this oddo reading is optimal.

Oil needs to be changed every 3 year. But here is the catch. The brake bleeding is a very precise job and experts is always needed, so that every bit of bubble in the system needs to be eliminated.

Also check the drum and vaccum pipe for any leakage.

Oiling of brake slave cylinders also must be done.

PS: BTW these are all part of wheels servicing. Cost of labour is about Rs.400/-
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Old 23rd November 2011, 10:17   #96
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Default Re: How do you improve an Ikon's brakes??

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Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
I have read on TBHP about the poor braking ability of the Ikon, specially the earlier models. Since I bought my Ikon 1.6, I have experienced firsthand how the brakes feel. While the pedal was very heavy in the beginning, the feel has improved since the brake oil change. However there's still a lot to be desired.

On a slope with the engine switched off, the footbrakes are ineffective in stopping the car from rolling backwards, even if the slope is gentle. Does this indicate the pads and liners need replacement?

While on the move, the brakes are clearly inadequate for high speeds, and even when speeds are in 60s, I am not sure the brakes will stop the car in time to avoid a collision, and so I am nervous as well as cautious.

What is the root cause of the poor braking performance? Is it the pads/liners? Is it something else?

And what is the solution for it?
This is due to :

1. vacuume leak - use sealant on the vacuume pipe - you will find that you are able to pluck it off with little force. also use anabond 666 sealant on the white filter looking thing. This improves braking a little.
2. change your brake lines to harder ones - when under braking the lines expand and reducing the pressure on the brake pads. - read - pipes which have steel reinforcement braid equivalent
3. Do not press clutch when braking as the brake fluid is also used for clutch.
4. bleeding - take your time and get this done.
5. use super DOT 4

The above should fix it. As always use engine braking to your advantage and keep your tyres filled to spec.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 10:31   #97
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Default Re: How do you improve an Ikon's brakes??

I guess, its something to do with the material, but braking feels slightly better with KBX brand pads on the Ikon.
honeybee, you might want to check the master cylinder as well.
Apart from the already discussed points, I feel there isn't much to be done to improve the Ikon's braking.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 10:57   #98
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Default Re: How do you improve an Ikon's brakes??

well, i had noticed that slamming on the brakes is ineffective, rather push them half way in, slight release, and then all the way in gives wonderful braking. use gear brakes with normal brakes to stop the car in emergency situations.

was never able to lock the wheels under braking, however the car will not roll back on a slope when in hand brake, or while stepping on it.

the santro has super sharp brakes, cant be compared to an ikon, that is why you are feeling that huge difference.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 11:54   #99
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Default Re: How do you improve an Ikon's brakes??

Holding the car still on a slope:

Premier Padmini diesel (probably with drum brakes all around and no servo), a Fiat Uno diesel, Maruti 800 (various models), a Premier Padmini petrol, Santro, Swift, a Maruti Van - these are the vehicles I have driven at some point of time or the other on this very road.

My startup procedure is to release the handbrake, apply clutch and footbrake, shift to neutral, start the engine and after a few seconds, shift into first and drive off. I have never had to adjust this routine on account of the footbrakes not holding the car in place. This is the first time I have to summon all my strength to hold the car in place. I don't think this is solely because with the engine off there's no servo assistance, or due to the weight of the car.

The handbrake works fine, I have to pull it up to about 3 clicks before it engages and usually the 4th or 5th click is strong enough to hold the car in place. So it's not the liners which are an issue.

Over the past few days I have been observing how the brakes respond. It seems there's absolutely no feedback from the pedal as you keep pressing it in, while the car does slow down, unlike the Premier Padmini which never slowed down enough. So now I think rear ending someone may not actually happen without being extra cautious.

Here's what I see I can do over the next few weeks by way of an experiment:
1. Replace the brake oil again in about six months to ensure most of the old fluid is washed out of the system
2. Try and get steel braided brake lines
3. Replace/upgrade the brake pads and liners
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Old 23rd November 2011, 12:22   #100
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Default Re: How do you improve an Ikon's brakes??

Even i have faced braking issues in my ikon 1.6 nxt.

To improve braking you can do the following.
- Use slotted rotors (tdiracing)
- Performance brake pads
- Good tyres.
- Engine braking does help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astleviz View Post
This has been discussed on several threads before so I'll just do a recap-

1. There are no hi-quality after market brake pads/ discs available for ikon, at least in India so no point going down that road.
2. You cannot fit an ABS on Ikon, unlike what ilagpop has suggested.
Things have improved my friend, At those times yes even i have struggled for good brakes in my ikon 1.6.

Last edited by brraj : 23rd November 2011 at 12:32.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 15:34   #101
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Default Re: How do you improve an Ikon's brakes??

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Originally Posted by brraj View Post
Even i have faced braking issues in my ikon 1.6 nxt.

To improve braking you can do the following.
- Use slotted rotors (tdiracing)
- Performance brake pads
- Good tyres.
- Engine braking does help.



Things have improved my friend, At those times yes even i have struggled for good brakes in my ikon 1.6.
I've never seen an ikon retro fitted with ABS or any ikon specific ABS kit anywhere. If you could point to some ikons with ABS or slotted rotors (not jugaads, they must be ikon specific), I would love to be proven wrong.

And theoretically, given enough time and money, you can fit ABS on a premier padmini also, the point is, would one want to spend more than the market value of an old ikon for fitting ABS and/or performance rotors/pads?
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Old 23rd November 2011, 16:33   #102
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Default Re: How do you improve an Ikon's brakes??

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Originally Posted by Astleviz View Post
I've never seen an ikon retro fitted with ABS or any ikon specific ABS kit anywhere. If you could point to some ikons with ABS or slotted rotors (not jugaads, they must be ikon specific), I would love to be proven wrong.
Ikon can be fitted with slotted rotors (Not jugaads and they are ikon specific). You can contact TdiRacing - Homepage.
I have tested slotted rotors on my own magnum and was happy about the performance and one more guy from chennai has also installed for his old palio 1.6.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astleviz View Post
And theoretically, given enough time and money, you can fit ABS on a premier padmini also, the point is, would one want to spend more than the market value of an old ikon for fitting ABS and/or performance rotors/pads?
Main reason why i didnt recommend him to go for ABS in my list as it costs
more.
Performance rotors should cost you around 16k for a pair and i guess its pretty cheap.
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Old 1st December 2011, 15:17   #103
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Default Re: Improving your cars brakes: Options and costs

Trying to source DOT4 and DOT5 brake fluid in Bangalore, could anyone help. Which is a better brand ? Thanks.
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Old 1st December 2011, 17:10   #104
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Default Re: Improving your cars brakes: Options and costs

DOT4 and DOT5 are not brands, they are specifications. While DOT4 is hygroscopic, i.e. absorbs moisture, DOT5 is silicon-based and not hygroscopic. The two should never be mixed.

Also please check your car manual and see which brake oil is recommended by the manufacturer. If it's DOT4, stick to DOT4. If it's DOT5, stick to DOT5.
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Old 2nd December 2011, 16:03   #105
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Default Re: Improving your cars brakes: Options and costs

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Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
DOT4 and DOT5 are not brands, they are specifications. While DOT4 is hygroscopic, i.e. absorbs moisture, DOT5 is silicon-based and not hygroscopic. The two should never be mixed.

Also please check your car manual and see which brake oil is recommended by the manufacturer. If it's DOT4, stick to DOT4. If it's DOT5, stick to DOT5.
Thanks for the tech tip, maybe the question was confusing 'which would be a better brand to go for if I were to buy either, Dot4 or 5', I know these are specs. These are for my harley which in itself is a constituent of different parts bought by me at different times, e.g. My front disc uses Dot5 and rear uses Dot4. I have been able to source Dot4, hunt for Dot5 is on.

Last edited by luky_13 : 2nd December 2011 at 16:04.
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