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Old 7th August 2007, 11:47   #16
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Hi Headers,

I haven't yet installled the LPG kit on my Palio as they were not confident of installing a sequential kit and suggested me to go for the closed loop kit and apprx cost was 32K. I though thats too deep for the closed loop as spending another 5-6K will get a sequential kit itself. So waiting for some good installer who will install the seq kit.

With Regards
Ravi
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Old 7th August 2007, 14:05   #17
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ok, I suggest either install sequential kit or don't think about LPG for Palio 1.6.

Bad installation of LPG make car worse, so need to find good person and then go head. If you find good tech. guy who can install sequential kits do let me know.

I heard guy from kormangala/HSR layout is good in sequential kits installation, did you check with him?

Regards,

Ravi.
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Old 9th August 2009, 21:22   #18
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What are the updates? Did you get the intallation done by any chance
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Old 9th August 2009, 23:25   #19
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Thumbs down Why? oh Why?

I am sorry ravi but, I just do not understand. Why do you want a LPG kit on a 1.6 GTX, that too the rarest of rare SP version. Run the car just once on 97 octane petrol (sold as Speed 97 at approx. Rs.68 a litre) and you will understand my anxiety.

What you have there is a gem of an engine. An engine that has become a rarity and is fast achieving cult status. This engine is complicated and any small error might cause damage and much heartburn, not to mention heavy expense. If it is the lower cost of fuel that you are looking at, what will you do if the gas prices shoot up (as many expect it to). There is a school of thought that running a petrol engine on gas causes damage due to the dry nature of gas. In any case, the 1.6 is hardly the car for economical running. With a gas kit, its range will be severly restricted unless you have a gas tanker in tow. If it is economy you want, I sincerely suggest that you get yourself another car which will consume less fuel and which is more gas friendly.

Cheers,
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Old 10th August 2009, 00:15   #20
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Default LPG gives more torque

At rpm's below 4000 my GTX gives better torque with LPG than with Petrol because I can manually adjust the mixture ratio to 1:12 or even 1:11 using the LPG mixture adjustment screw. Petrol mixture is kept at 1:14(petrol:air) by the Lambda sensor and the ECU. Above 4000rpm petrol is far better as the ratio is momentarily changed to 1:11 during the acceleration phase by the ECU but rarely do I get the oppurtunity to cross 4000rpm in any gear on Kerala roads. Remember that Kerala is one big village with innumerable jay walkers and I am doing 100kmph at 2800rpm or thereabouts.

Major drawback with LPG in the GTX is that I miss the turbo like kick I used to get when crossing 4200rpm due to the ECU varying the mixture strength when in petrol similar to the kick when driving the Honda vtec when it goes into its alternate cam profile but as mentioned before rarely do I get the road to cross 4000rpm.

The GTX engine is made with 87 Octane in mind and keeping adultrated fuel in the picture 91 Octane is more than enough. Higher the octane rating with no change in compression ratio results in lower power contrary to what you might have read on these and other forums. To repeat: higher octane petrol without higher compression ratio results in lower power rather than the expected higher power.

With LPG one major advantage is I can undertake long trips without refuelling enroute from suspect adulterated fuel stations. 45 liters of petrol and 28.8liters of LPG takes me a long long way before refuelling. Frankly speaking I have been driving around with not more than Rs100 worth of petrol at any one time for the past 5 years and 9 days as unadulterated LPG is available every 100km at the max and I can travel 300km on one 28 liter fill of lpg with AC on all the time.

I thought of reverting to Petrol when petrol prices dropped but the LPG prices fell too and I did not want to miss the low down torque I am getting with LPG when compared to Petrol. If you drive with pedal to the metal mode using up all the rpm the engine has to offer then nothing like a twisty road with a petrol driven Fiat 1.6 engine. I could not keep up with the new petrol engined Laura in the twisties to Munnar but that car is 3 times more expensive.

From the LPG installer who has the sequential and the ordinary venturi kit the information recieved is that the GTX ECU does not take kindly to a piggy back ECU of the sequential kit. The ordinary cut and splice method used in my GTX is supposedly better but I defer with him on this and concur with the opinion that a sequential kit is better for the GTX but I do not want to experiment with my ordinary venturi kit which has been running without hiccups for the past 5 years and 9 days. The car is now 6 years and 9 days old.

Last edited by drpullockaran : 10th August 2009 at 00:26.
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Old 10th August 2009, 09:05   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drpullockaran View Post
From the LPG installer who has the sequential and the ordinary venturi kit the information recieved is that the GTX ECU does not take kindly to a piggy back ECU of the sequential kit. The ordinary cut and splice method used in my GTX is supposedly better but I defer with him on this and concur with the opinion that a sequential kit is better for the GTX but I do not want to experiment with my ordinary venturi kit which has been running without hiccups for the past 5 years and 9 days. The car is now 6 years and 9 days old.
Doc, I am seriously thinking of adding a sequential LPG to my adventure. Whats your say on this.

1. Is it worth the kind of money spent. or will i have more service/"corrective action" costs that would in effect negate the savings from running on lpg?
2. IS a closed loop system just enough. Will extra money spent onthe Sequential kit be worth in terms of performance and smoothness.
3. Any good installers in TVM/EKM
4. Have heard that BRC is the best for FIAT 1.6's. Any idea?
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Old 10th August 2009, 16:40   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gemithomas View Post
What are the updates? Did you get the intallation done by any chance
@gemithomas,

I did get installed a BRC sequential injection kit(55K INR at that time. now should get it around 45K) on my car. This was a nightmare for me since they cut the main fuel pipe while doing so and I really had to run everywhere to get the pipe back in my car. after the initial hiccups, its been a pleasant journey so far. I have not felt that there is drop in the power. However, in Bangalore city limits, I get only 7.5 - 8 kmpl and on highway between 10-11kmpl with AC on most of the time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravveendrra View Post
I am sorry ravi but, I just do not understand. Why do you want a LPG kit on a 1.6 GTX, that too the rarest of rare SP version. Run the car just once on 97 octane petrol (sold as Speed 97 at approx. Rs.68 a litre) and you will understand my anxiety.

What you have there is a gem of an engine. An engine that has become a rarity and is fast achieving cult status. This engine is complicated and any small error might cause damage and much heartburn, not to mention heavy expense. If it is the lower cost of fuel that you are looking at, what will you do if the gas prices shoot up (as many expect it to). There is a school of thought that running a petrol engine on gas causes damage due to the dry nature of gas. In any case, the 1.6 is hardly the car for economical running. With a gas kit, its range will be severly restricted unless you have a gas tanker in tow. If it is economy you want, I sincerely suggest that you get yourself another car which will consume less fuel and which is more gas friendly.

Cheers,
@Raveendra,

Thanks for the suggestion buddy. But this thread was 2 years old and have already installed this kit. per my understanding the dryness of the gas really causes damage to the engine related parts if we start the car in gas. But most of the auto-kits these days do come with starting the car in petrol and then it automatically switches to lpg once a certain temperature is reached. So you are sure that everytime you crank, the car will always start on petrol and then switch to LPG. I think the model I have got installed is the completely imported kit and this comes as the OEM kit for lancer cedia.(this was actually the reason that influenced me to go with this kit)

Quote:
Originally Posted by drpullockaran View Post
At rpm's below 4000 my GTX gives better torque with LPG than with Petrol because I can manually adjust the mixture ratio to 1:12 or even 1:11 using the LPG mixture adjustment screw. Petrol mixture is kept at 1:14(petrol:air) by the Lambda sensor and the ECU. Above 4000rpm petrol is far better as the ratio is momentarily changed to 1:11 during the acceleration phase by the ECU but rarely do I get the oppurtunity to cross 4000rpm in any gear on Kerala roads. Remember that Kerala is one big village with innumerable jay walkers and I am doing 100kmph at 2800rpm or thereabouts.

Major drawback with LPG in the GTX is that I miss the turbo like kick I used to get when crossing 4200rpm due to the ECU varying the mixture strength when in petrol similar to the kick when driving the Honda vtec when it goes into its alternate cam profile but as mentioned before rarely do I get the road to cross 4000rpm.

The GTX engine is made with 87 Octane in mind and keeping adultrated fuel in the picture 91 Octane is more than enough. Higher the octane rating with no change in compression ratio results in lower power contrary to what you might have read on these and other forums. To repeat: higher octane petrol without higher compression ratio results in lower power rather than the expected higher power.

With LPG one major advantage is I can undertake long trips without refuelling enroute from suspect adulterated fuel stations. 45 liters of petrol and 28.8liters of LPG takes me a long long way before refuelling. Frankly speaking I have been driving around with not more than Rs100 worth of petrol at any one time for the past 5 years and 9 days as unadulterated LPG is available every 100km at the max and I can travel 300km on one 28 liter fill of lpg with AC on all the time.

I thought of reverting to Petrol when petrol prices dropped but the LPG prices fell too and I did not want to miss the low down torque I am getting with LPG when compared to Petrol. If you drive with pedal to the metal mode using up all the rpm the engine has to offer then nothing like a twisty road with a petrol driven Fiat 1.6 engine. I could not keep up with the new petrol engined Laura in the twisties to Munnar but that car is 3 times more expensive.

From the LPG installer who has the sequential and the ordinary venturi kit the information recieved is that the GTX ECU does not take kindly to a piggy back ECU of the sequential kit. The ordinary cut and splice method used in my GTX is supposedly better but I defer with him on this and concur with the opinion that a sequential kit is better for the GTX but I do not want to experiment with my ordinary venturi kit which has been running without hiccups for the past 5 years and 9 days. The car is now 6 years and 9 days old.
@doc,
Happy to another member running his GTX on LPG. I would certainly prefer to have the LPG kit since this gives the best combination possible. The peace of mind(do not have to tune the kit everytime with Sequential kit). Everything is controlled by the master ECM and that drives the LPG one. I have tried and tested this many times.

One thing I agree is that may be installing Any LPG kit would set you back with respect to getting serviced at TATA Motors. They would not even take risk to touch any parts/anything under the hood and they did mention that they will only do the body work and anything other than engine servicing related. This is really annoying at times since other(outside TATA) charge too much for the spares or servicing when compared with tata.
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Old 10th August 2009, 23:08   #23
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Default The sequentials are better but are too expensive to justify.

My answers are in bold italics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gemithomas View Post
Doc, I am seriously thinking of adding a sequential LPG to my adventure. Whats your say on this.
Sequential kit is theoretically far better than the old model venturi kit that I have in my GTX.

1. Is it worth the kind of money spent. or will i have more service/"corrective action" costs that would in effect negate the savings from running on lpg?
The sequential kit is definitely not worth the money that you spend on it and thats one of the reasons why I bought the venturi unit from STARGAS for 21000 inclusive of the torroid tank. The kit that comes in the Lancer is the one you should put in your car if you have money growing on trees in your backyard and if not I suggest the STARGAS venturi kit but be ready for blown air filter boxes if you accelearte suddenly from low rpm. Mashing the pedal to the floor after 2800rpm causes no problem though


2. IS a closed loop system just enough. Will extra money spent onthe Sequential kit be worth in terms of performance and smoothness.
Closed loop is enough if you do not mash the pedal at low rpm as it will backfire(bane of venturi kits) resulting in blown air filter box and filter. IF you mash the pedal then its far safer to go for the Mitsubishi kit.

3. Any good installers in TVM/EKM
There is one real good installer in Cochin and he is an engineering graduate from Davangere. He uses the STARGAS kit only.


4. Have heard that BRC is the best for FIAT 1.6's. Any idea?
The kit that comes in the Mitsu Cedia is the best by a long margin and I hear its a BRC kit.

During my trip to TVD for the PUG meet I got an overall mileage of 12km on LPG with pedal to the metal mode most of the time and AC switched on occasionally.
I do not know the city figures correctly as I use my Junkindica diesel for city commutes.

Last edited by drpullockaran : 10th August 2009 at 23:15.
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