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Old 10th September 2007, 19:34   #46
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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
Thing is there are only a handful of qualified tuners in the country and millions of self proclaimed tuners.
And pray who is to separate the grain from the chaff? Is there an Institute that certifies them? No? Then, can you see how fraught with dangers that path could be for the layman? And doubly so with no dearth of self proclaimed 'experts'!!
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Old 10th September 2007, 20:03   #47
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Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post
And pray who is to separate the grain from the chaff? Is there an Institute that certifies them? No? Then, can you see how fraught with dangers that path could be for the layman? And doubly so with no dearth of self proclaimed 'experts'!!
The good tuners are the ones who have a good reputation in the motorsport circle or people who successfully do up quick cars say in drag events, track events & rallies. Its not that hard to find out whose a REAL tuner and whose not once you ponder them with certain questions. Any end customer who is going to go to a tuner must do a background research. You can get duped if you are stupid enough to go to the wrong people for even a tire change or ICE install or even a service of a stock car. I really am failing to understand what you are trying to prove here? The topic is about filters and we are talking about tuners? It can't go more OT than this.
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Old 10th September 2007, 20:10   #48
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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
I can tell you statements that will shock you out of your living daylights what our manufacturers do to save costs. IIRC, K&N filters are also sold by Maruti dealers as beneficial accessories too. So MAYBE (?) they MIGHT have benefits?

Talking about being good citizens, I guess you are free to take down the registration numbers of our cars and send them to your local RTO. Being a good citizen does not only mean telling others not to mod their cars but also involves a lot many more things like taking up issues of breaking the law by complaining/notifying to the authorities, helping the poor & the needy, voting for the right leaders, paying your taxes etc too.
It would be indeed very enlightening not just for me but for everyone to hear some of these examples of cost cutting by manufacturers. Do please 'shock us out of our living daylights'.

As for the good citizens bit, when there is no real data, no quantitative study, etc. to support what you are crying yourself hoarse about, the next best thing is to fudge the issue and bring in all manner of extraneous considerations! How on earth does it matter in this discussion whether I, or for that matter any of the readers, helps the poor or not; or whether I pay my taxes or not!!
Could you TRY, at least TRY, to stay with the subject at hand and get some scientific data to support what you are saying? For starters, could you tell us about the micron size of the concerned filter and whether the car maker approves of this size? And if they do approve, I've already said, go right ahead and use it. It should not come to your attention later that your warranty is void because you fitted such a filter.
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Old 10th September 2007, 21:06   #49
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Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post
It would be indeed very enlightening not just for me but for everyone to hear some of these examples of cost cutting by manufacturers. Do please 'shock us out of our living daylights'.
Poor safety features to begin with. Even cars that come with ABS, EBD, airbags standard abroad are supplied without any of the goodies in India (NHC for eg). Really skinny tires to improve FE (baleno). Lack of running all discs inspite of the very same vehicles running in other countries with a completely different setup. Down rate the engine specs for Indian conditions, horrendous pricing of most cars when compared to international prices. Supply of age old designs and outdated cars that are no longer in production in most parts of the world (M800, esteem etc). Pathetic build quality of the same vehicle when compared to internationally (prime example is swift). Lack of providing power windows on the same car across different variants. And the list goes on. Have you over looked all this?

Quote:
How on earth does it matter in this discussion whether I, or for that matter any of the readers, helps the poor or not; or whether I pay my taxes or not!!
Since you seem to crying your lungs out asking people to stop polluting the environment by modding cars just wanted to know if the same applies in all fields of life (fair enough). Or is it just that you suit your theories based on your priorities?

Quote:
Could you TRY, at least TRY, to stay with the subject at hand and get some scientific data to support what you are saying? For starters, could you tell us about the micron size of the concerned filter and whether the car maker approves of this size? And if they do approve, I've already said, go right ahead and use it. It should not come to your attention later that your warranty is void because you fitted such a filter.
There is no harm in trying. But end result is it WILL still lead to more arguments. And am I willing to waste my time over such petty arguments? NO! But still will give it a try.

This is the filter I am running on my car. Yes, it MAKES A LOT OF DIFFERENCE. Why? Go to my gallery and check out the mods to my engine. I have had days when the filter was clogged and I had to swap to the stock filter and my car was getting choked. LITERALLY. So, yes filters do work. Link to the specs of the filter.
http://www.knfilters.com/search/prod...x?Prod=RU-3550

If you have any queries feel free to read this.
K&N Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Many will argue saying these are for cars abroad and not meant for our conditions or cars. But having used them personally I would say they DO make a difference. Get onto a track or a drag strip, take of your air filter and run the car. See the difference.

If you need filtration tests you can check out this link.
K&N Product Testing

What is the theory behind which air filters work?
In a society where FE matters most, there is a chance that most manufacturers MIGHT be running a slightly leaner mixture (restrictive intakes) to get that extra yard out of a drop of fuel. So adding additional air can lead to striking the appropriate AFR which only betters the efficiency of the engine. This will not only leading to proper burning of the fuel but also increase the power and torque too (naturally). And increase in torque will only translate to better drivebility which in turn will increase FE. So yes, it is possible to achieve better FE & Power with an air filter. But the extent to which it helps is debatable. Some manufac's might run a more lean mixture compared to others, so certain cars might have profound changes to the addition of more air.

Do note that most manufacturers WILL not recommend any after market accessories. Look at Skoda dealers who infact even say that Pete's is dangerous & useless . Though its been proved otherwise after lots of testing and dyno proven figures. It goes to say that your warranty is actually VOID even if you get a stereo installed from outside the showroom. Or get a service done from a non-authorized center. Same applies to engine mods as well. Any modification you do, engine, electrical, brakes, tires do VOID your warranty with immediate EFFECT even if its for better safety, driveability etc.

Due to this lack luster attitude of most of our manufac's they will never come forward and support an accessory until the Government makes it MANDATORY. Isn't that why all these Euro Norms were brought upon? Because the Govt enforced them? And not because our esteem manufac's decided to provide them because of good will?

Talking about figures, I would say wait until that day we have dyno's that are available all across the country for public use. Some of these theories have been proved by some cars running in the rallies/tracks in India which do HAVE access to Dyno's. SO it is not all baseless and pointless. Or I am sure they aren't fools to run them either if hey didn't have any gains. And we are talking about some really professional and popular tuners here.

Last edited by mclaren1885 : 10th September 2007 at 21:10.
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Old 10th September 2007, 23:29   #50
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Note from mod: Okay, I think the arguments are done with. Lets get back to the actual topic of which air filter is better, rather than are air filters good or bad and what sins are committed due to them. Thats not the topic of the discussion
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Old 11th September 2007, 11:30   #51
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mclaren1885, I would indeed have paid an extra 1L or so for the safety features like airbags and ABS. Alas M&M did not even offer these as options when I placed my order for a 4WD Scorpio.
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Old 11th September 2007, 15:12   #52
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I believe this thread is about stock replacement filters.

@Amey, @1self - are you both using conical filters ? If so, IMO please lets not quote performance and/or FE gains due to conical filters here, lest it give the impression that the same can be gained from stock filters.

Till now, what I have been able to glean from the last 4 pages is that stock replacement filters may give a very marginal increase in driveability and FE. However there does not seem to be any quantitative analysis available of the benefits.
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Old 11th September 2007, 15:35   #53
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Originally Posted by shuvc View Post
I believe this thread is about stock replacement filters.

@Amey, @1self - are you both using conical filters ? If so, IMO please lets not quote performance and/or FE gains due to conical filters here, lest it give the impression that the same can be gained from stock filters.
Hi Shuvc!

Yes, i am currently using a conical performance filter...however i have been using a stock replacement filter (K&N) for a year or so..as for power increase...i found it to be quite good beyond 3000rpm...compared to the stock paper filter....

Last edited by 1self : 11th September 2007 at 15:38.
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Old 15th September 2007, 11:46   #54
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has any one done any logical analysis on cars sucking through restrictive intake paths?
or we are just trying to proove each other wrong on perceptions?
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Originally Posted by TURBOSAM View Post
this is the simplest and accurate test i use in pin pointing the restriction point in inlet side. all u need to have is a good quality vacuum guage with 4to 6 inch dial willingness to accept the truth .
take the car to a lonely steeply inclined road.where u can really push it to near red line in third gear .
then while pushing that hard get the vacuum readings starting direction is the way air passes ..intake snorkel of air filter box and follow the air <from outside to the engine
1>in the air filter before the filter element but after the snorkel
2>after the air filter element but in the filter box only
3>at the starting of the resonator
4>at the end of the resonator
5>after the resonator but before the throttle plate<or throttle body>
6> immediately after the throttle body
7>in the planum chamber
8>at the begining of the runners <inlet pipes>
9>at the end of the runners
10>at the inlet port
---please note last three readings will fluctuate very rapidly and u need a really r&d quality guage which will show u the max vacuum reading only<that too without overshooting! >
all other readings <from 1 to 7> will give u the restrictive location <bottleneck>
and it will also tell u weather the air filter is restrictive or not stock or aftermarket
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Old 15th September 2007, 13:15   #55
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Well Turbosam!

I doubt if any of us have the above mentioned equipment (i could be wrong of course)....please do tell your findings....will be appreciated by all!!

Thanks in advance!
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Old 15th September 2007, 20:54   #56
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apart from the last three tests all the tests can be done with the help pf ordinary guage too which shouldnot cost more than @ 400-500 rs ; a simple long transparent U tube filled with coloured liquid will also give u the idea if pressure drop ,if not the values .
my point was the approch should be scientific one and should not be based on assumptions.
the atm pressure is 14.7 psi<1 bar>
if u find 2 psi drop before the throttle body then ur engine will be producing power at 12.7 psi at full throttle, and that costs power
OR if there is no pressure drop between (air filter and just before throttle body) then u can assume that the entire tract is non restrictive.. and save lot of money on filter mods!!!


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Originally Posted by 1self View Post
Well Turbosam!

I doubt if any of us have the above mentioned equipment (i could be wrong of course)....please do tell your findings....will be appreciated by all!!

Thanks in advance!
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Old 5th October 2007, 00:52   #57
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My Xing breathes via a K&N RE0930 (think so) Conical filter.
Its gets pretty loud when you 'rip' the car.
There is indeed a difference in performance.
120+ something in 3rd gear.

Will be getting\installing Green Cotton "Wind" tomorrow ( yup , from Pete's) and hence this post to compare between the two.
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Old 5th October 2007, 03:40   #58
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Good man,really need such a thing and i am looking forward to it.
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Old 5th October 2007, 07:46   #59
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Dear jkdas,

a few pics of the above installations will be highly appreciated!!
thanks!
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Old 5th October 2007, 08:46   #60
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Dear jkdas,

a few pics of the above installations will be highly appreciated!!
thanks!
its in my garage The plumbing was done by me. SS was used instead of Al.

Green's pix will be in later today along with reports.
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