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Old 27th December 2007, 14:14   #16
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hey v-16 its good that you've already guided him in the right direction,my only doubt was when you mentioned you could look at a turbo job after shaving the head and using a high lift cam,shaving the head would normally increase the compression which incase of a turbo setup is not recommended as far as the cam goes the grind on the lobes is done to achieve power from a NA engine,a turbo cam would have a different grind,just my 2 cents would appreciate your input's,cheers,happy revvin..!
Absolutely right Dragger. I was giving him options open to him as he wanted to know, after that, then what??
My recommendation for the head shave (mild) was because the budget which was mentioned did not warrant a turbo setup but then later whenever one wants to have a turbo set up and one has already shaved the head previously, then in such a case, the easiest option is to phase/ shave the pistons to the same mm. the head has been shaved. This will counter the compression increase due to the head shaving. Thats what i've planned for my car
The head shave, even if a turbo set up is not going to be done, has to be a mild shave (recommended max .25mm) so that you may be able to use regular fuel without a knocking problem.

Last edited by V-16 : 27th December 2007 at 14:18.
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Old 27th December 2007, 15:32   #17
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I have questions reagrding the modifications of my Swift. I did not wanted to start a new thread on these mods.
This is regarding the low end torque which really lacks in Swift's. I have some things to share.....

1. Is it really needed to re-map the ECU settings?
OR
2. Change the gear ratios to overcome these issues?

Though I do not have plans to go for headers, nor the spark plugs, Might change the end can, I do not really think that might matter a lot of difference in low end. Also planned to take step by step.

Guys, pls do suggest me your views.

Cheers,
Raps
what i would say is get the 1600 bottom half.will increase the torque a lot.

or get longer intake runners but problem would be to find some one who can measure the correct length.but generally longer intake manifold increases the torque at lower rpm hence aiding city driving.
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Old 27th December 2007, 20:49   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raps View Post
I have questions reagrding the modifications of my Swift. I did not wanted to start a new thread on these mods.
This is regarding the low end torque which really lacks in Swift's. I have some things to share.....
1. Is it really needed to re-map the ECU settings?
No it is not, unless you are going to Turbo or majorly modify the car.


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Originally Posted by Raps View Post
2. Change the gear ratios to overcome these issues?
Easily said than done. One does not come across a converted close ratio gear box for a Swift very easily

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raps View Post
Though I do not have plans to go for headers, nor the spark plugs, Might change the end can, I do not really think that might matter a lot of difference in low end. Also planned to take step by step.
Why not? Custom Headers, designed properly by a proficient person who knows his job will do a lot to marginally increase the low end torque on its own. IMHO it is the easiest and cheapest way to help increase the low end torque, although marginally but you will find a good deal of difference).
I agree that spark plugs (iridium or not) do nothing to increase torque on their own.
You are right about the End can/Cat back. It does little to improve your low end by just its installation. Installing a cat-back will reduce your power output in one area of your band, and increase it in another.
Also, if you use smaller piping than stock you can gain more low-end while sacrificing top-end power.Get a FFE with a custom header job done for low and mid end torque.

I agree with Pawan on the Baleno(1600) block for extra torque.

Last edited by V-16 : 27th December 2007 at 21:07.
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Old 28th December 2007, 05:26   #19
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Thanks for the prompt reply v-16,and thank you once again for exlpaining fellow member's the problem's with availability of close ratio gear box's and the cost factor,besides all this the entire close ratio gear box has to be designed keeping in mind your current engine setup which is a very tedeaous task and a lot of r&d required there,v-16 the idea to phase the piston's is pretty interesting,but what about the NA high-lift cam,turbo's dont work well with that,i believe turbo cams have an exactly opposite grind as compared to the NA cams,would always like to learn more,cheers,happy revvin..!
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Old 28th December 2007, 19:04   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragger View Post
Thanks for the prompt reply v-16,and thank you once again for exlpaining fellow member's the problem's with availability of close ratio gear box's and the cost factor,besides all this the entire close ratio gear box has to be designed keeping in mind your current engine setup which is a very tedeaous task and a lot of r&d required there,v-16 the idea to phase the piston's is pretty interesting,but what about the NA high-lift cam,turbo's dont work well with that,i believe turbo cams have an exactly opposite grind as compared to the NA cams,would always like to learn more,cheers,happy revvin..!
Whilst modifying one has to firstly see, the usage of that modification. Cars to be used as daily drives are to be modified in a different way than cars with a track use in mind. The basic problem is that a lot of new enthusiasts are advised by a lot of people who are quite ignorant with little or no knowledge or bookish knowledge about what to do.

Is the car going to be used as a Daily drive or as a Track/Race car?

You cant race in a car prepared for street and vice versa. A Daily drive should have a wide power band (good low and mid end mostly), strong reliable build that lasts, smooth idle and should above all offer good return in kms to a litre of fuel.
The cams used in these cars IMHO should not exceed the profile of 285. Any higher it will idle wildly and have pathetic bottom end power with the resultant power band becoming so narrow that the car becomes a burden and a pain to drive as a daily drive in normal traffic conditions, what a daily drive will be doing most of the time. The problem starts when ill guided people fit cams of 300 profiles on their daily drives and then complain that the car has no bottom end power. Also such a car is extremely irritating to tune, assuming its fuel injected. Rev above 4500rmp and watch that very car change its characteristics and drastically too. But how many daily drives spend more than a few minutes of their every day lives above revs of 4500??

Smaller turbos may be used provided they are run with stock internals.

On a race engine one has to get optimum power, so ports are opened up for increased flow at high rpm and camshaft timing and lifts are increased. This set up results in dull delivery of power in low rpms, (this is where a close ratio gear box comes into usage and are fitted to minimize the rpm drop when shifting from one gear to another. Close Ratio boxes are generally fitted only on race prepared engines (I said generally) and are again a pain to drive in normal trafic as it requires constant shifting), wilder unstable idling (if one can call it idling at all) and of course increased fuel bills. Engine parts are changed with stronger engine internals and if running turbo, then the turbos are of a big to huge variety.

Coming to Turbos:

Many of the above problems are repeated in turbo installations too. Going in for larger than required turbos will result in low end power loss unless matched with the engine and the proper intercooler not to mention poor reliability of the engine when using an improper setup.
I dont exactly agree with your turbo cam theory. (What is a Turbo Cam?)
Turbo engines, as already discussed, usually, have lower compression ratios Top end gains will be offset by loss in the lower powerband and also considerable turbo lag. For a Turbo engine, stock cams are recommended for daily drives if your engine is a four valve type. Don't waste your money on the Turbo Cams (again what are they?). There are far to many factors in deciding what cam to go for a turbo charged engine (again this is mainly for race engines so we should not be discussing here, only for general information) some of which are Boost level, Backpressure, RPM range, Intended Horsepower, A/R of turbo, head flow, cubic inches, location of turbo, heat shielding the turbo and plumbing, Matching Intercooler,...etc. All of these factors are extremely important in determining the cam that best suits your needs. There is no rule of thumb with a turbo cam. PHEW!!
Hope it has been informative. Gurus; Psycho, Viper, Karan if hes on the forum and other gurus if ive not mentioned them (sorry) please feel free to correct if i'm wrong.
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Old 28th December 2007, 21:27   #21
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Instead of starting a new thread i'll post my question here:

I have a swift Running on a FFE setup with custom headers from Viper,Also there is a Green CAI system.I am very happy with the outcome of these mods and now want to do more,but i cant understand what to do and from where to start from.

Some people say Clutch upgrade,Some a Porting And Polishing Job,Some ECU,Some TB Enlargement???

Guys what should i install next,Also Please Guide me with the Step and Stage Wise mods under the Hood!!!

Last edited by m4ugr8 : 28th December 2007 at 21:43.
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Old 28th December 2007, 22:07   #22
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Guys what should i install next,Also Please Guide me with the Step and Stage Wise mods under the Hood!!!
Please go through this article it has been wel discussed:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modify...-your-car.html (ARTICLE: How to Modify / Tune your car)
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Old 29th December 2007, 19:32   #23
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I can vouch for Viper Exhausts and the work done under his guidance by Afzal and his mechanics are awesome. I got my FFE done by Viper on my Alto VXI 1.1 and will post a detailed thread on it once am back in Bangalore and @ leisure.

For Swift, Jignesh's Garage who do the FFE (Afzal and team) are the best as you can customise as well.
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Old 29th December 2007, 20:27   #24
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I Agree!!! My swift is also running on Viper's FFE and its simply mind blowing!!!
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Old 30th December 2007, 03:42   #25
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hey v-16 from what ive got to know turbo cams have a higer lift on the intake side as compared to the na cams which have a higer lift on the exhaust side,so incase you use a na cam on a turbo application your intake will be very restricted,do correct me if im wrong,always willing to listen and learn,cheers,happy revvin..!
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Old 30th December 2007, 19:53   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragger View Post
what about the NA high-lift cam,turbo's dont work well with that,i believe turbo cams have an exactly opposite grind as compared to the NA cams.....
All this discussion of using turbo spec cams an all comes in only when preparing a race spec engine with a big block and is a lot of theory which we only read and learn or speculate. Firstly dont let turbo spec cam grinds et all bother you. Ideally, the best way to make power is to get as close to a NA cam and then go a few degrees wider on the lobe separation.


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Originally Posted by dragger View Post
.
hey v-16 from what ive got to know turbo cams have a higer lift on the intake side as compared to the na cams which have a higer lift on the exhaust side,so in case you use a na cam on a turbo application your intake will be very restricted, do correct me if im wrong,always willing to listen and learn,cheers,happy revvin..!
That may be because in an ideal turbocharged set up, what is being done? Charge is being forced into the intake but the exhaust has a restrictor, ie the turbo plonked in it.
A little extra duration will get the extra gas out but then this will also depend on the size of the turbo how big or small and the capacity of the engine
If the turbo is more restrictive then extra exhaust duration may cause reversion at lower rpm.
A larger capacity engine will hardly show effects of reversion while in a smaller engine the effect will show in a bigger way.

Ideally, engines with an installed turbocharger have lower lift and less duration than their n/a versions. This is because using hot cams on a turbo may and most probably does cause power losses all over the rev range which is something which people who have such installations have not bargained for. But that does not mean that only stock cams work properly. Stock cams do work well but - but wild or race spec cams for n/a versions will not work well at all with the turbo.
Practically, in race spec engines or engines with after market big turbo installs its almost a trial and error way to get things right. Cam timing adjustment plays a big role here too. Hope it has been helpful.
These were my two bits.
Gurus,Please feel free to correct me if im wrong...??
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Old 1st January 2008, 02:44   #27
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Thanks for the reply,i just wanted to make sure that my statement does stand true that there is a difference in the grind of the cam,of a car running a na setup and a car with a turbo setup,cheers..happy revvin..!
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