Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Modifications & Accessories


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 18th October 2008, 16:25   #76
BHPian
 
Gangsta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 622
Thanked: Once
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhik View Post
+1 on that.
CNG does require less air to burn thats why after my KnN install i had to redo the fuel mixture setting.
But a CAI will definately help smoothen the engine running.

C'mon now! Thats a bit of an overstatement, dont you think? There is a difference but not like CRAZY, that will happen once you get a TURBO with 10-12PSI boost
haha i had compared it with a non-tapped cng car mate.(lol non-VGT vs VGT same results Non-Tapped vs Tapped CNG Car)

Also, i used the word DeTUNED Verna VGT. haha

Try redlining your car, i think your limiter will be off.

Last edited by Gangsta : 18th October 2008 at 16:27.
Gangsta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2008, 16:57   #77
BHPian
 
abhik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 848
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gangsta View Post
haha i had compared it with a non-tapped cng car mate.(lol non-VGT vs VGT same results Non-Tapped vs Tapped CNG Car)

Also, i used the word DeTUNED Verna VGT. haha

Try redlining your car, i think your limiter will be off.
Ya i discovered that on the very 1st day i got CNG installed. when i saw the rev counter go past 6000rpms all the way till 7000 i had a huge smile on my face.
Now with the cat-back FFE its even more fun.
abhik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2008, 17:03   #78
Senior - BHPian
 
ashthedivx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 1,351
Thanked: 22 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhik View Post
Engine noise is higher as compared to when running on petrol and on CNG its even louder when the A/C is turned on, lots of vibes too.
Looks like your kit needs to be tuned up properly, as for me with CNG its much smoother and peppier then that of petrol (read it with or without AC)

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhik View Post
Ya i discovered that on the very 1st day i got CNG installed. when i saw the rev counter go past 6000rpms all the way till 7000 i had a huge smile on my face.
Now with the cat-back FFE its even more fun.
Add TAP to it and it will be more funnier.
ashthedivx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2008, 17:14   #79
BHPian
 
Gangsta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 622
Thanked: Once
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashthedivx View Post
Looks like your kit needs to be tuned up properly, as for me with CNG its much smoother and peppier then that of petrol (read it with or without AC)


Add TAP to it and it will be more funnier.
He already have a tap in his ikon
Gangsta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2008, 17:21   #80
BHPian
 
abhik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 848
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashthedivx View Post
Looks like your kit needs to be tuned up properly, as for me with CNG its much smoother and peppier then that of petrol (read it with or without AC)
You might have Lambda control installed in your Optra due to which its smoother. Unfortunately my Ikon cannot accomodate a Lamda control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashthedivx View Post
Add TAP to it and it will be more funnier.
I already have a TAP installed from the very first day. I had done my homework well.

All petrol/gasoline cars when made to run on CNG has to have their timing advanced than stock setting, be it with the help of electronic control like TAP ot manually by alterating the distributor.
abhik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2008, 17:25   #81
BHPian
 
Gangsta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 622
Thanked: Once
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhik View Post
You might have Lambda control installed in your Optra due to which its smoother. Unfortunately my Ikon cannot accomodate a Lamda control.


I already have a TAP installed from the very first day. I had done my homework well.

All petrol/gasoline cars when made to run on CNG has to have their timing advanced than stock setting, be it with the help of electronic control like TAP ot manually by alterating the distributor.
Why Ikon cannot accomodate a lamda?
Gangsta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2008, 17:36   #82
BHPian
 
abhik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 848
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gangsta View Post
Why Ikon cannot accomodate a lamda?
It can but its too much of a risk to take. Apparantly the Lamda Control signals which are sent back to the ECU will result in a major conflict in the ECU codes and setting correct maps and might result in a failure, which i am not willing to experiment because the cost of a new ECU...(read FORD product) will probably exceed that of my car's present market value.
And anyways if set right its good without one too so fine for me, the only thing that i miss out on is smoother running and load/stress on the engine when the A/C is on plus that its louder and vibes increase.
abhik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2008, 17:38   #83
Senior - BHPian
 
ashthedivx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 1,351
Thanked: 22 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhik View Post
You might have Lambda control installed in your Optra due to which its smoother. Unfortunately my Ikon cannot accomodate a Lamda control.
My optra has Lamda and TAP as well It flies effortlessly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by abhik View Post
All petrol/gasoline cars when made to run on CNG has to have their timing advanced than stock setting, be it with the help of electronic control like TAP ot manually by alterating the distributor.
That's what my point is, when a timing is advanced properly it should not transfer any sort of vibrations, That too when a TAP is installed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gangsta View Post
Why Ikon cannot accomodate a lamda?
+1 Care to elaborate ?
ashthedivx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2008, 17:45   #84
Senior - BHPian
 
ashthedivx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 1,351
Thanked: 22 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhik View Post
It can but its too much of a risk to take. Apparantly the Lamda Control signals which are sent back to the ECU will result in a major conflict in the ECU codes and setting correct maps and might result in a failure, which i am not willing to experiment because the cost of a new ECU...(read FORD product) will probably exceed that of my car's present market value.
Why not get it installed from Ford authorized dealer only, this way it will be entirely their risk only. Though i am not sure if they will install it or not as it doesn't seems you got kit installed from Ford Authorized Service Center. I bet you it do cost some extra thousands, but still those extra thousands are worthwhile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhik View Post
And anyways if set right its good without one too so fine for me, the only thing that i miss out on is smoother running and load/stress on the engine when the A/C is on plus that its louder and vibes increase.
But ultimately you'll be suffering severe loss which includes loss in fuel efficiency and longevity of your engine due to extra load and stress on the engine part.
ashthedivx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2008, 18:14   #85
BHPian
 
Gangsta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 622
Thanked: Once
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhik View Post
It can but its too much of a risk to take. Apparantly the Lamda Control signals which are sent back to the ECU will result in a major conflict in the ECU codes and setting correct maps and might result in a failure, which i am not willing to experiment because the cost of a new ECU...(read FORD product) will probably exceed that of my car's present market value.
And anyways if set right its good without one too so fine for me, the only thing that i miss out on is smoother running and load/stress on the engine when the A/C is on plus that its louder and vibes increase.
Duh!! It wont result in a failure. But guess what?
When the car is switched to CNG, limiter went off. Why? Reason: because of the change in fuel. Role of ECU in it. Because ECU is detecting No Fuel. So, Limiter thingy went off.

It is because of the fact that ECU is not working properly.
Well..!! Lamda sensor is just like the oxygen sensor which controlles the fuel air ratio. ECU will work acc. to that only. When you switch over your car to the petrol. Isnt it jerks off initially? I think its not the case with the lamda cars.

How ECU senses about the fuel mixture? Oxygen Sensor.

Infact the Oxygen Sensor for Petrol Cars if works with CNG Cars will send broken signals to the ECU and sometimes No Signals which is very rare.
Just to overcome this broken signals, lamda is used. Correct me if i'm wrong.

Now a days kits are coming with Lamda as stock not TAP. I don't know about the recent kits but i'm telling you about 3 months back story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashthedivx View Post
My optra has Lamda and TAP as well It flies effortlessly.



That's what my point is, when a timing is advanced properly it should not transfer any sort of vibrations, That too when a TAP is installed.


+1 Care to elaborate ?
TAP kicks in after 2k rpm. before that the car will be a bit sluggish.

Last edited by Gangsta : 18th October 2008 at 18:15.
Gangsta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2008, 18:28   #86
BHPian
 
Gangsta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 622
Thanked: Once
Default

moreover, loud noise can be due to the fact that CNG burns more vigrously than the petrol.
Also, petrol acts as a cleansing agent too whereas CNG is just dry, also increases the residue in the injectors.
Gangsta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2008, 18:32   #87
BHPian
 
abhik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 848
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashthedivx View Post
That's what my point is, when a timing is advanced properly it should not transfer any sort of vibrations, That too when a TAP is installed.
Actually apart from the TAP other factors also come into play like adjusting AFR of CNG and air through the power-valve and then adjust idling though the idle control valve on the kit, this is very tricky and can never be right because its purely manual adjustment. That is why i still have problems with idling till date. This is in an open-loop set-up like my car. Gas in-flow is constant irrespective of the fact if the engine does actually require that amount of fuel to burn which means wastage.
Whereas with a Lamda control AFR is adjusted electronically, simple just plug in the scanner feed in engine details and maps are generated, thus smoother engine operation because the engine gets the exact amount of fuel required and so as you said better efficiency and less stress on the engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashthedivx View Post
Why not get it installed from Ford authorized dealer only, this way it will be entirely their risk only. Though i am not sure if they will install it or not as it doesn't seems you got kit installed from Ford Authorized Service Center. I bet you it do cost some extra thousands, but still those extra thousands are worthwhile.
Actually Ford earlier used to get Bedini kits but then due to lack of knowlede about how to go about setting closed or open loop operations they discontinued doing so in-house and started outsourcing the work to local fitters. Infact Harpreet Ford asked me about my fitter's details after they saw my car perform over a period of months.
So i would rather not take the risk with them, my fitter is much better and has all the knowledge, he was a retro-fitter for Surhit Hyundai and also had fitted the first sequential kit for Mahindra for the Logan.
Also he was the only guy who said he would fit a CNG kit on the Ikon from the 5 other vendors i called up when i got the car and had to fit CNG kit and the plainly refused.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ashthedivx View Post
But ultimately you'll be suffering severe loss which includes loss in fuel efficiency and longevity of your engine due to extra load and stress on the engine part.
There are plans to sell the car in the near future so thats why i am refraining from doing anything major to it, it still performs well after 1,20,000KMs and hopefully will continue doing so. The only problem is idling. The ECU adjusts to normal idling when A/C in switches on but after sometime or if i keep the throttle pressed for a while, till then it struggles at 400-600RPM. But if i decide to keep this car then i will surely do a little research on the stock ECU or even think about a custom made one and a few engine internal mods.
abhik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2008, 18:34   #88
BHPian
 
abhik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 848
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gangsta View Post
moreover, loud noise can be due to the fact that CNG burns more vigrously than the petrol.
Also, petrol acts as a cleansing agent too whereas CNG is just dry, also increases the residue in the injectors.
What injectors are you talking about? On CNG, on a non-sequential injection kit, the injectors are cut-off, thus they are'nt used for any deposits to form on them.
CNG is directly introduced in the air-intake through a mixer fitted above the throttle body.
abhik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2008, 00:17   #89
BHPian
 
Gangsta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 622
Thanked: Once
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhik View Post
What injectors are you talking about? On CNG, on a non-sequential injection kit, the injectors are cut-off, thus they are'nt used for any deposits to form on them.
CNG is directly introduced in the air-intake through a mixer fitted above the throttle body.
throttle body. i know. it has to be cleaned regularly for good performance.

Run your car for 2 days on CNG. switch over to petrol. The performance will be downgraded like anything.

But, when you feel your car is getting choaked on petrol. Just add an additive "Injector Cleaner" and add 500 Rs petrol with that "ijector cleaning" in your petrol tank. You will come to know the difference.

Injector cleaner wont clean the throttle body but the injectors.

lol dunno if i had any spelling mistakes lol as i'm highly drunk. but try it and see. yes i heard about the fact the injectors do't come into play. But fuel filter still regulates the petrol to the injectors for sure.

Last edited by Gangsta : 19th October 2008 at 00:20.
Gangsta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2008, 12:21   #90
BHPian
 
naveen.kk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 119
Thanked: 29 Times
Default

Good to see rel gurus talking about CNG performance. Sequential kits with Tap can be really efficient than petrol. I had Sequential CNG kit in my Palio 1.6, and that too with out TAP. kit was amazing, I used run it on auto tune mode, if tuned properly it can give better efficiency. Low end was unbelievable, and engine was so smooth like a cakewalk.

Unfortunately I had to sell that old car, removing the kit from it. I have that kit idle, and just skeptical to fit in my next car, as the availability of CNG is pain in hyderabad.

I will certainly fix that once the availability of CNG i good in hyderabad.
naveen.kk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
CNG Oil Change - Regular or any CNG specials? panky12345 Technical Stuff 5 20th May 2016 11:56
Wagon R LXI CNG Vs Wagon R VXI + CNG Kit ajay387 Hatchbacks 37 7th October 2013 22:54
Company Workhorse : New Eeco 5 seater CNG or Used Dzire + CNG kit? NMM What Car? 2 4th February 2013 19:29
Swift Lxi (CNG Fitted) vs Santro GLS (CNG) coolaxe Hatchbacks 18 28th June 2012 16:58


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 20:28.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks