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Old 25th April 2008, 04:00   #1
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Post So many options to increase power, what about braking?

Hi guys,

A brief intro, I have an 800 and it is stock. For a long time now (as long as I have been in T bhp) I wanted a more powerful car. The reason being I use my car mainly for highway jaunts and the 800 is notoriously under powered there. I have been long plagued by dilemma of whether to go for a more powerful car or to stick with this one ( I almost got a bolero once, but couldnt due to various reasons). Now I do not have the money (just 23)to go for a swift which is what I would want to buy if I do upgrade, and I wont go for a Santro or a wagon R etc since I think they dont handle well IMO and not the kind of power if i was to freshly invest 3-4 lakhs.

So after long deliberation, I finally decided if I can't buy a new car, I will make the car I have a pleasure to drive and own. Hence from all the research here I have decided on various mods( can list them if you want) both on performance and ICE (I have a few questions for that as well but thats a different post).

BUT, where Im stumped is braking. 800 has awful braking. no matter any bleeding, cleaning..doesnt improve the braking. Now if i was to increase the power, god save me or whomever I'm gonna run over on the highway.

So gurus and experts here is my question, what can be done to improve the braking and safety of my car? If it was to be a good highway car, I believe braking is more important than speed. I don't mind pulling all stops for these two factors!

Thanks in advance for the advice.
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Old 25th April 2008, 05:35   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiery enzyme View Post
Hi guys,

A brief intro, I have an 800 and it is stock. For a long time now (as long as I have been in T bhp) I wanted a more powerful car. The reason being I use my car mainly for highway jaunts and the 800 is notoriously under powered there. I have been long plagued by dilemma of whether to go for a more powerful car or to stick with this one ( I almost got a bolero once, but couldnt due to various reasons). Now I do not have the money (just 23)to go for a swift which is what I would want to buy if I do upgrade, and I wont go for a Santro or a wagon R etc since I think they dont handle well IMO and not the kind of power if i was to freshly invest 3-4 lakhs.

So after long deliberation, I finally decided if I can't buy a new car, I will make the car I have a pleasure to drive and own. Hence from all the research here I have decided on various mods( can list them if you want) both on performance and ICE (I have a few questions for that as well but thats a different post).

BUT, where Im stumped is braking. 800 has awful braking. no matter any bleeding, cleaning..doesnt improve the braking. Now if i was to increase the power, god save me or whomever I'm gonna run over on the highway.

So gurus and experts here is my question, what can be done to improve the braking and safety of my car? If it was to be a good highway car, I believe braking is more important than speed. I don't mind pulling all stops for these two factors!

Thanks in advance for the advice.
I believe you can put the esteem brake [boost] cylinder on the 800 ; - thats sounds great and pads too are available not sure on the details.
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Old 25th April 2008, 09:30   #3
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U can add brake boosters to your car to improve braking performance. Dunno if it is true or not but have heard that brake boosters can be fitted only to MPFI cars

You can also check this out -

Car Parts Wholesale,Engine Carburetor Parts,Car Engine Parts Supplier,Carburetor Parts Supplier,Car Engine Parts Wholesale

They state they have parts for cars like the 800, alto, swift etc. And they make brake pads and shoes along with various other parts for these cars. Since it seems locally made i dont think it will be too expensive either. ....Hope it helps
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Old 25th April 2008, 09:38   #4
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tyres?? anyone??

i have seen in quite a few threads, where goods tyres upgrade is attributed for better braking.
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Old 25th April 2008, 14:16   #5
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when I was in college, my mechanic had bolted on a zen's brake booster on my 5speed 800. was a straightforward fit. considerably improved braking and my confidence.did not have to stand on the brakes to stop the car.
cost me around 5000k then. not sure about now.

make sure your tyres are good, inflated to the right pressure.
suspension has to be in good condition for brakes to be effective.

the M800 brakes best with minimum passengers.

would you please tell us what performance mods you have in mind? just curios thats all.
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Old 25th April 2008, 16:20   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rippergeo View Post
when I was in college, my mechanic had bolted on a zen's brake booster on my 5speed 800. was a straightforward fit. considerably improved braking and my confidence.did not have to stand on the brakes to stop the car. cost me around 5000k then.
You mean 5k and not 5000k.
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Old 25th April 2008, 16:37   #7
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Tyres! I upgraded to Potenza tubeless (on original rims) 165/60R12 and the difference it made to handling and braking was amazing. Cost less than 8k for 4 tyres. Tyre noise increased and performance drops a bit. Need to run it at 30 psi or above always (to reduce the drop in performance).
However, the good part is that it gives almost the same mileage on highways as the originals and since it has reduced profile, the car starts off from rest easily when a/c is on (the speedo error is close to 4%) - because of reduced effective diameter of the tyres.
However if you want comfort then opt for higher profile tyres
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Old 25th April 2008, 16:52   #8
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Quote:
tyres?? anyone??

i have seen in quite a few threads, where goods tyres upgrade is attributed for better braking.
This will only help if the braking is bad due to the wheels locking up. But if the brakes are so weak that they can't lock the stock wheels, there is no way you can improve the braking unless you increase the braking force itself.

Quote:
However, the good part is that it gives almost the same mileage on highways as the originals
Not really true. If your odo is wheel rpm dependant then you're travelling a smaller distance for a certain number of wheel revolutions as compared to your stock tyres. The odo wont differenciate between wheel size (unless you calliberate it for the new wheel diameter and circumference). It only takes the wheel rpm into account.

When your odo says 500kms travelled, you're actually covering less distance than what you would have covered with your stock tyres. Thats why you feel the FE hasn't changed.

So in reality, you're using the same amount of fuel to travel a shorter distance (which your odo doesn't show you).

Shan2nu

Last edited by Shan2nu : 25th April 2008 at 17:02.
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Old 25th April 2008, 17:11   #9
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Default Very valid point

Not many discuss deceleration with the same enthusiasm they do acceleration.
On bikes it's mostly stainless braided hoses and ceramic/mixed compound pad materials, and of course larger rotors, ventilated discs and enhanced calipers (6-piston for instance), and then, all things being equal, some manufacturers are preferred over others (Lockheed, Brembo etc.) to enhance performance, so I imagine it's not very different for 4-wheels.

That said, the weakest link remains the tyres IMO. Like rubber puts the horses down, it also facilitates scrubbing them away. The fanciest braking upgrades cannot better your braking beyond what the section and compound of your tyres offers, so the buck does stop there. However, like someone said earlier on in this thread, putting on swankier rubber will not improve your braking.
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Old 25th April 2008, 17:13   #10
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For the 800, I'm not too sure. But normally, better compound brake pads go a long way in helping. Other things like SS hoses, better fluid, larger and/or slotted and drilled rotors are basically to prevent brake fade, which is crucial if you live in the hills or on a racetrack.

And yes, tyres go a long long way in helping.
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Old 25th April 2008, 18:00   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n_aditya View Post
You mean 5k and not 5000k.
oops!
typo.obviously.5000k in college...I wish! had to make do with 2000Rs for petrol every month.

and like shantanu said
the tyres need to be upgraded only if the they are are locking up and leaving skid marks.
in my M800, that happened only after the boosters were added.but by that time, I ran out of money for tyre upgrades

if there is no lock up, it means you need better discs, pads, rotors boosters whatever.
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Old 25th April 2008, 18:51   #12
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Also change the brake pads to KBX it will make a considerable difference if you're used to the TVS Girling pads. TVS Girling pads last long but grip less.
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Old 25th April 2008, 21:53   #13
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OK, I should have made it clear, I have already planned the tyres, G III potenzas. I agree with all the valid points above, however the changes you have mentioned give only a nominal difference.
Booster cylinders will only increase the response time but not the actual braking (it does help in decrease braking distance). The alto has a booster however i feel the braking when compared to other cars like the swift or Santro leaves a lot to be desired (you can attribute it to the bigger wheels but santro is only just one size up), so is that the best we can do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
For the 800, I'm not too sure. But normally, better compound brake pads go a long way in helping. Other things like SS hoses, better fluid, larger and/or slotted and drilled rotors are basically to prevent brake fade, which is crucial if you live in the hills or on a racetrack.

Could you give some more detail, so we laymen could get better idea?
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Old 25th April 2008, 22:00   #14
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what is the pcd size of the 800 if its 114.3 then esteem type 1 or zen brakes type3 but zen brakes are very bad and have grip after some hard braking they get worn out fast.
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Old 25th April 2008, 22:01   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funkydevil View Post

You can also check this out -

Car Parts Wholesale,Engine Carburetor Parts,Car Engine Parts Supplier,Carburetor Parts Supplier,Car Engine Parts Wholesale

They state they have parts for cars like the 800, alto, swift etc. And they make brake pads and shoes along with various other parts for these cars. Since it seems locally made i dont think it will be too expensive either. ....Hope it helps
Thank you for the link.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rippergeo View Post

would you please tell us what performance mods you have in mind? just curios thats all.
I'm planning on the stage1 mods however going slow due to financial reasons as well as improving the braking and safety aspect.

so initially it will be the usual:
K&N or Green filter, Free flow (3 X 1 LOL), and alloys with Bridgestone G IIIs

Once i get them done and if I can do something about the braking, I'm thinking of experimenting with a tri-phase.

Also at the same time I want to add power windows and some good ICE (which reminds me I have to start the other thread)

@ Pawan: The PCD afaik is 114. So you are suggesting I replace the whole braking system with a zen's?. WIll that improve braking because the weight of an 800 is less? Is that the logic behind it?

guys: So you think 13" wheels will help?

Last edited by fiery enzyme : 25th April 2008 at 22:07.
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