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Old 26th February 2009, 12:47   #31
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The Pete's box can do wonders to a diesel car; increased performance is felt from the low to high rpm range. I'd choose the box over a remap, especially for premium cars, since its simpler, plug & play and can be removed within minutes (useful for when the car is going in for a service etc.). Plus, you could always sell it at a later stage. Germans have complex electronics to start with; I'd never want to mess with them.

A power box might be more "convient" since you can remove it before service. But the remap delivers better results and can be regarded as "safer" too.
A remap tunes the engine/ecu, while a power box fools the engine/ecu. If a car is out of warranty, its best to go in for a remap even if not there are several remaps that go undetected by the dealership.

Our fellow Bhpian X5india has remapped his ECU from DMS and their software is undetected by BMW diagnostics.
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Old 26th February 2009, 12:55   #32
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Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
How about the filter ? Do make sure you change you filter as well or you wouldn't be surprised it would be smoking like a truck which is nothing but unburnt fuel and to burn that efficiently you would need to replace your filter, better off with green replacement as they kinda less oily compared to the K&N and your MAF sensor will be safe with it.

All the best.
Enjoy your complete new ride.
Thanks, Invisible.

Will bear that in mind and pick up the Green Cottons too
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Old 26th February 2009, 20:12   #33
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But the remap delivers better results and can be regarded as "safer" too.
Fat chance! Allow me to explain why:

1.In the most basic explanation, a tuning box simply leads to more fuel being injected into the diesel engine. The scope of a remap is much wider : more diesel, higher turbo boost, timing etc.

2.A remap requires a high level of expertise in installation & local support. Something I don’t believe Indian infrastructure is capable of yet, atleast in providing a consistent level of service on each remap sold across the country. Compare that to a powerbox which is tested by its manufacturer and sealed until delivery, and even post-installation. No fiddling around.

3.A powerbox can take me from 141 BHP to 170 BHP (C220). Is that enough? Remember, a powerbox has adjustable settings for more extreme usage too. A remap will give me probably an additional 10 – 15 more horses. However, the more the power, the more the stress on a diesel engine. Remember, if it were so simple, a manufacturer would sell the C220 in a higher state of tune from day one itself (don't bring up the new C, among other things it has an upgraded cooling system). However, the cars existing components & state of tune are designed to handle the power and keep the engine from harm, even in an extreme condition such as climbing a long ghat on a really hot sunny day with a full load of passengers. In a remapped C220 with 190 horses on tap, you can gauge the effect of 40% more horsepower on transmission / cooling etc. components in such conditions. There is a reason why I haven’t boxed or mapped my car yet. If & when I do, it will be a powerbox running in setting 1 as the risk exposure is FAR lower. European cars aren't cheap to maintain, all hell breaks loose when they need repairs!

4.Euros have complex electronics from the factory itself. While a powerbox only leads to altered signals, a remap modifies the ECUs many settings & parameters.....a complex modification by any benchmark. I have yet to see one SINGLE powerboxed car with a problematic install (being how simple it is!). However, post-remap problematic cars are too many to count. Starting with Monkeys RS and his check engine light which wouldn’t go for almost a year!

5.Powerbox = You can go back to stock whenever you want. What is the procedure for getting back to standard ECU tune after a remap?

6.When it’s time to change the car, you could sell the tuning box and the car separately. A tuning box is not a wear & tear item. It will do on day 1000 the exact same thing that it did on day 1. You will understand that a remap can’t exactly be sold separately on a floppy disk.

7.If something goes wrong with the powerbox, you can remove the box on the spot. Its a simple DIY. Good luck with your remapped car showing a hiccup / check engine light when you are with your family in the middle of nowhere.

8.There have been times when a dealer will simply reset your ECU at the time of some major work or a manufacturers “silent install of a new ECU tune”. Translated = your ECU is back to stock. What is the cost of a re-remaping (there, I just invented a new term)?

9.Warranty claims : X5india hasn’t made a warranty claim on his engine. Period. If & when he does, be assured that BMW will thoroughly study his engine and know that it’s been remapped in a matter of minutes. It is NOT difficult to locate a remap when you want to. Remaps either overwrite manufacturer data or reside on an empty part of the chip. Manufacturers have VERY strict procedures before clearing warranty claims. And BMW does know their own car a little better than any aftermarket supplier would.

In consideration of the above-mentioned points, a powerbox is far better suited to someone who is looking at simpler mods / lesser risk for more power. However, if you are getting a bigger turbo, better intercooler, advanced fueling system and going for full-blown mods, then a remap is the way to go as it will consider all parameters and is totally customisable.

Last edited by GTO : 26th February 2009 at 20:29.
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Old 26th February 2009, 20:52   #34
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very well highlighted GTO. indeed powerboxes can be removed easily and the car can be made stock.
mainly in India the aftermarket remapping is damn costly and a cream for any tuner. obviously they charge for what they have learnt.
but say you have just got your car remapped and suddenly your some or the other part which could not hold the extra horses falied? it will be a nightmare and the tuner wont change this in warranty for sure and nor will the company. mainly company will get privilige to rubbish all your clains henceforth even if they are not related to the ECU.
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Old 26th February 2009, 21:06   #35
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The box is a proven mod by now. The Remap has quite a few disadvantages as GTO has put it.
Remap on a stock engine didnt seem like VFM when compared to the tuning box. On highly modded engines,the remap is the only option.

Racedynamics is cooking up a Diesel ECU
Planning to trial one of those soon, when they become available.
That should have the advantages of both the tuning box and the remap in one system, being removable and reusable like the box and customisable like a remap.
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Old 26th February 2009, 23:22   #36
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Originally Posted by WAGON_R View Post
very well highlighted GTO. indeed powerboxes can be removed easily and the car can be made stock.
mainly in India the aftermarket remapping is damn costly and a cream for any tuner. obviously they charge for what they have learnt.
but say you have just got your car remapped and suddenly your some or the other part which could not hold the extra horses falied? it will be a nightmare and the tuner wont change this in warranty for sure and nor will the company. mainly company will get privilige to rubbish all your clains henceforth even if they are not related to the ECU.
Well when I was in a fix between a tbox and remap I did my research spoke to one of the SA at skoda who happend to be close to a friend of mine. Gathered the info spoke to peter, did a lot of research on the net finally went ahead and got the remap done. Well I paid 33k against the 30 of the Tbox not much of a difference. No issues with the car what so ever. Overall prefer the remap anyday against the tbox.

Quote:
it will be a nightmare and the tuner wont change this in warranty for sure and nor will the company.
This could happen with the tbox as well as. As between the tbox and remap is barely about 10% difference here and there. But against which you get better drivability and improvement in torque with the remap.
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Old 28th February 2009, 01:25   #37
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GTO, you make some very good points. However, I'd just like to clarify some things.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
1.In the most basic explanation, a tuning box simply leads to more fuel being injected into the diesel engine. The scope of a remap is much wider : more diesel, higher turbo boost, timing etc.
Stage 1 remaps also do only fuelling. Also, there is no timing on diesel engines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO
A powerbox can take me from 141 BHP to 170 BHP (C220). Is that enough? Remember, a powerbox has adjustable settings for more extreme usage too. A remap will give me probably an additional 10 – 15 more horses. However, the more the power, the more the stress on a diesel engine. Remember, if it were so simple, a manufacturer would sell the C220 in a higher state of tune from day one itself (don't bring up the new C, among other things it has an upgraded cooling system). However, the cars existing components & state of tune are designed to handle the power and keep the engine from harm, even in an extreme condition such as climbing a long ghat on a really hot sunny day with a full load of passengers. In a remapped C220 with 190 horses on tap, you can gauge the effect of 40% more horsepower on transmission / cooling etc. components in such conditions. There is a reason why I haven’t boxed or mapped my car yet. If & when I do, it will be a powerbox running in setting 1 as the risk exposure is FAR lower. European cars aren't cheap to maintain, all hell breaks loose when they need repairs!
I don't know if you're aware, but the OM611 engine -- your C220 CDI -- starts at about 80 bhp in one of the MB vans, and maxes out at 143 bhp stock in the C. There are no engine or ancillary changes. Even the turbos are the same. Only the mappings are different. Also, the new C uses a totally different engine, not the OM611.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO
Euros have complex electronics from the factory itself. While a powerbox only leads to altered signals, a remap modifies the ECUs many settings & parameters.....a complex modification by any benchmark. I have yet to see one SINGLE powerboxed car with a problematic install (being how simple it is!). However, post-remap problematic cars are too many to count. Starting with Monkeys RS and his check engine light which wouldn’t go for almost a year!
The remap does just that -- re-maph the fuelling chart. It doesn't change anything on the controllers for other vehicle functions. Can you elaborate on Monkey's RS?

I think the RaceDynamics diesel piggyback will be a great intermediate. The convenience of a regular tuning box with the ability to load custom maps.
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Old 28th February 2009, 15:00   #38
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Well I paid 33k against the 30 of the Tbox not much of a difference. No issues with the car what so ever.
I'm very happy to hear that. There are several remap customers who haven't had a problem till date.

However, I might add in the same breadth, that:

- Exposure to risk with a remap is higher.
- Number of complaints post-remap is higher.

Quote:
Also, the new C uses a totally different engine, not the OM611.
To be honest - Nope. I wasn't aware that the new C has an entirely different engine. Are you sure that the current engine isn't (basically) a reworked version of the one in mine? They feel awfully similar to drive (the new one only more powerful) and sound similar too.

Quote:
Can you elaborate on Monkey's RS?
Problems with check engine light, idling etc. I remember atleast 10 visits to 4 seasons in less than a year.

Quote:
I think the RaceDynamics diesel piggyback will be a great intermediate. The convenience of a regular tuning box with the ability to load custom maps.
Awaited.

Last edited by GTO : 28th February 2009 at 15:01.
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Old 28th February 2009, 20:09   #39
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
To be honest - Nope. I wasn't aware that the new C has an entirely different engine. Are you sure that the current engine isn't (basically) a reworked version of the one in mine? They feel awfully similar to drive (the new one only more powerful) and sound similar too.
My apologies for being not wholly accurate. The OM611 continues to be in production. There is also the OM651, which is similar in dimensions, and puts out a maximum of 204 bhp. The only visible difference is that the latter has twin turbos. I'm not sure which one the new Indian C has, since I haven't been under the hood yet. Both engines are sold as C 200 and C 220 CDIs, among other designations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO
Problems with check engine light, idling etc. I remember atleast 10 visits to 4 seasons in less than a year.
I didn't know the specifics. It would be nice if he puts up a thread -- if there isn't already one.
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Old 1st March 2009, 16:33   #40
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Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
My apologies for being not wholly accurate. The OM611 continues to be in production. There is also the OM651, which is similar in dimensions, and puts out a maximum of 204 bhp. The only visible difference is that the latter has twin turbos. I'm not sure which one the new Indian C has, since I haven't been under the hood yet. Both engines are sold as C 200 and C 220 CDIs, among other designations.
If that's the case, then the new C220 runs the same unit as my generation. Had to be, they feel 95% identical!
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Old 1st March 2009, 19:09   #41
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lets be frank here!! REMAP is Trouble. I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT! ITS IN MY JOB TO FLASH AND RE-FLASH ECUs daily and test whether the interations done is working properly or not.
now i have got more serious work in my hand.

i do the VIVA test Virtual Integrted Vehicle Analysis the final testing that any ECU goes into before series production. !

when any of the meets come up i will be glad to take a session on these so called modifications! there are good stuff and bad stuff. safe remaps also are there.

i am in a position to remap any vehicle provided i have its cable harness and HEX file. and a standard DCM!! but that will mean i have to use BOSCH LAB Equipments which i shouldnt and wont!

i respect my company and love my job

do ask for any clarifications. i will try to clear them . not in a position to start a seperate thread. am pretty lazy
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Old 1st March 2009, 19:47   #42
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Right. Aren't you the guy that said Elantras run 7 psi stock, and boost controllers inject a bit of extra fuel? Lol.
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Old 1st March 2009, 20:14   #43
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that for petrol turbo charged vehicles dude! elantra stock is 1 bar! 14.5 psi to be exact. dont shoot of random comments dude!! boost controller alters the wastegate input signal!!
and yes in gasoline engines if more feul is not given in accordance with increased boost to maintain the Srochio ratio!! you know what happens next
mechanical boost controllers cant be precise!! electronic boost controllers are more precise!
you sound as if you know the ecu Hex files top to bottom. lol.
i dont mean to be rude.
but trust me when a serious issue comes up. the OEM guys try two things. either reflash the ECU if erassing error codes is not possible ( as in like even aftert they are reset, they set on again) when replacing costly components are involved they do a full check on the ECU they will find out even if 4kb ( thats the typicall detectable increase or decrease in DATA size) is different, they take the ECU to factory and connect it to a Closed loop Lab car and RUN a European Driving cylce Test! the recorded torque levels and injected feul mass on the FMTC Mapp will be way off the required limits!! they will just generate a DCM file from the current hex file and viola!! all remap effects will be seen. this is how in foreign countries OEM guys escape form customers suing them for selling defective products!!( the whole thing starts when the car starts giving trouble after a remap!!)
am already having 15 infraction points so not interested in gettin personel but dont act over smart i have no issues getting banned!!
dude lets not shoot from the hip here okkk peace!!
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Old 1st March 2009, 21:40   #44
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Sameel, one of the lovely features of TBHP -- as compared to most other forums -- is that the search function actually works.

This is where you've said the Elantra CRDi runs 7 psi in stock form.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/871455-post53.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by sameel
i am interested in hyundai vehicles and there fore lets take into consideration the elantra engine.. its a crdi unit. and still at 7psi normal turbo boost. it gives at 112ps . thats 110bhp.
And this is where you've said that boost controller give extra 'feul' into the engine.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/921321-post57.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by sameel
the boost controller essentially controls the boost ( at the same time gives just that extra bit of feul into the cylinder so as to not give a VERY LEAN MIXTURE which can blow your ENGINE. too much oxygen will cause much much higher explosive charge which can blow the engine
So you see, these aren't random comments.

I'm going to ask you nicely to check what you post, because believe you me it comes back to bite you in the behind. And if you want to go and get banned, no problem. But please try and post true information
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Old 2nd March 2009, 18:24   #45
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Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
There is also the OM651, which is similar in dimensions, and puts out a maximum of 204 bhp. The only visible difference is that the latter has twin turbos. I'm not sure which one the new Indian C has, since I haven't been under the hood yet.
OM651 has just started production. There are different variants and the twin turbos is only on the 204 bhp variant. Base around 170. Indian C has the 170 bhp version of the 611. I think they will eventually replace all 611 applications with OM651 and transfer the tooling to Force Motors.
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