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Old 31st July 2009, 09:21   #256
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Karthik / RAhul, could you guys list out the price list as well.

I fail to see with approx 3L+ how only so much was done?
Or rather with 3L to spare how a TC could not be done?
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Old 31st July 2009, 09:30   #257
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Karthik / RAhul, could you guys list out the price list as well.

I fail to see with approx 3L+ how only so much was done?
Or rather with 3L to spare how a TC could not be done?
Daniel, getting into the price list would spark a debate with someone or the other always quoting that the price paid is too high. So why don't you PM Karthik for the prices?

IIRC, Karthik decided to stick to NA for some odd reason. Maybe he was just scared by some of the members here.
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Old 31st July 2009, 21:02   #258
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why does it feel like that things have not gone right??!!
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Old 1st August 2009, 02:50   #259
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Thanks a ton Rahul. That was a nice write up and things are much clearer now.
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Old 1st August 2009, 03:08   #260
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So basically the car knocks, the owner tried to rev it hard during running in, and the speedo has a crazy error on it, not to mention the engine could be blown. What is the current condition of the car?

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why does it feel like that things have not gone right??!!
Because they haven't!
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Old 1st August 2009, 03:56   #261
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So basically the car knocks, the owner tried to rev it hard during running in, and the speedo has a crazy error on it, not to mention the engine could be blown. What is the current condition of the car?
Akshay, the car was run-in properly, I can assure you that. 300-400 kms of city driving coupled with some highway driving without maintaining constant speeds and shifting at 2,000 each time. Initially when I noticed the car knock, I assumed it could have been due to bad fuel. But even after getting good fuel at TVM (by now the car had clocked nearly 1,200kms) the car didn't stop knocking for the next 14 days. From my experience, I can say that the car shouldn't have been running without the ECU. The ECU could have saved a lot of headaches IMO.

It just reminds me of my own car actually. Which is why I tried to take extremem caution and even asked Karthik to make sure he informs the guys at Race Dynamics that the engine was knocking, gearbox seemed to be spewing out oil. Didn't want to take the risk of blowing up an engine, specially when its just been re-built.

Its a pity because I was hoping to drive a baleno on a long long drive after a very long time. Sadly, all I could manage was a top speed of some 115 because I couldn't put myself through to pushing it any further.

If I were Karthik, I would put in the ECU asap to stop the knocking. Get a different set of ratios, get the suspension setup properly and get the headers and cam so that the car would be fun to drive past 4000 rpm as well.
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Old 1st August 2009, 04:18   #262
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Well, I run my engines in for atleast 2500 km. If the blocks are re-sleeved, which I believe this was (I could be wrong), I would do atleast 3,500 km. So I guess our run-in methods differ, but I've never had any problems with my cars (crossmyfingersandtouchwood ).
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Old 1st August 2009, 04:32   #263
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Well, I run my engines in for atleast 2500 km. If the blocks are re-sleeved, which I believe this was (I could be wrong), I would do atleast 3,500 km. So I guess our run-in methods differ, but I've never had any problems with my cars (crossmyfingersandtouchwood ).
Running-in makes the cars slow Akshay, from my experience . Remember my zen? Never ran it in, was super fast. Ran in the baleno, was slower than other stock baleno's. The first time I moved to the honda pistons I ran in my car for 1000 kms (rather was asked to by my ex tuner). The last rebuild, I ran-in the car for 1000 kms (re-sleeved back to 75mm) and then started to open her up slowly and steadily. Haven't had an issue till now. Car must have run around 7k kms now since the last rebuild. But I religiously follow the run-in instructions given to me.

Infact, I am yet to come across a tuner who says run it in for 2500 kms. 1000 kms is the standard figure I have heard for run-in.

Last edited by mclaren1885 : 1st August 2009 at 04:40.
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Old 1st August 2009, 05:00   #264
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Ok, well obviously, our experiences differ. Ran my brand-new stock car in for 2500 km, and it was a rocket. Then with the new sleeves, did a total running in of over 3000 km, and again, it was a rocket. But I think we're going seriously OT here...
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Old 1st August 2009, 10:25   #265
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Just my two cents,

The number of kms to run in depends on the severity and senstivity of the build. The way you run in your car is what is important more than the number of kms you do.According to me the first 500kms are the most important and the way you bed it in then, is how it would perform for the remainining part of its life.

The term you are actually looking for is "break in", I am sure you are aware that there is a very thin line between running in and breaking in. Overdoing any one can lead to a non performing engine.

Further clarifying,running in is what you did on your Baleno and breaking in is what exactly you did on you Zen. There are "n" number of websites where you will find ppl arguing about this over and over again.

I must admit that I agree with you and that according to me as well breaking in the car is the best way to run it in, however, recently I had a huge debate about this with my tuner and this is what he had to say..

When an engine is made from the factory, they use super precision tools and every aspect is well taken care off, however, when we re-sleve and get the work done locally the work done though good, is definitely not at par with the work done at the factory.

In order to compensate for those imperfections the car has to be run in smoothly and properly. Following the break in method can lead to disastrous results. ( I can vouch for that with my own experience)

All said and done, I had one question for you, did karthik or you go back to your tuner after you finished 500-1000kms for the very important oil change and the preliminary checks. Giving him an opportunity to see if things were okay!!

I am assuming no. So if you guys are showing slack on your part by not doing the most basic things, blaming a tuner for a shoddy work is not a good thing to do maite.

According to me, Karthik wanted something and he explained that to his tuner, the end result is that, he got what he wanted.If not he should have gone back to the tuner first and explained the issues to him then.I am sure things would have been taken care off. Its too late to crib now. I dont think it will be right to blame the tuner at this point in time.

If I am not mistaken, the tuner he went to this time is someone who would not do a shabby shoddy job and try and make a fast one. He is someone who is respected by one and all in this industry and to doubt on his workmanship is something which is unheard off.

Cheers
Shrey

PS: I do not intend to take sides here. Please take things with a pinch of salt.

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Running-in makes the cars slow Akshay, from my experience . Remember my zen? Never ran it in, was super fast. Ran in the baleno, was slower than other stock baleno's. The first time I moved to the honda pistons I ran in my car for 1000 kms (rather was asked to by my ex tuner). The last rebuild, I ran-in the car for 1000 kms (re-sleeved back to 75mm) and then started to open her up slowly and steadily. Haven't had an issue till now. Car must have run around 7k kms now since the last rebuild. But I religiously follow the run-in instructions given to me.

Infact, I am yet to come across a tuner who says run it in for 2500 kms. 1000 kms is the standard figure I have heard for run-in.

Last edited by ssjr0498 : 1st August 2009 at 10:43.
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Old 1st August 2009, 11:18   #266
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Originally Posted by ssjr0498 View Post
There are "n" number of websites where you will find ppl arguing about this over and over again.
since people with far superior knowledge about engines than you and me, with greater access to hands on experience over decades, better technology cant come to a conclusion yet, I shall prefer not arguing with you on this one.

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when we re-sleve and get the work done locally the work done though good, is definitely not at par with the work done at the factory.
I agree once again. Which is why I think if I were to mod another car, I would never touch the engine. Just plonk in a turbo .
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( I can vouch for that with my own experience)
Welcome to the club Shrey! How about you start a new thread and explain in detail the issues faced with your Vtec? It would help others not to make the same mistake.

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All said and done, I had one question for you, did karthik or you go back to your tuner after you finished 500-1000 for the very important oil change and the preliminary checks. Giving him an opportunity to see if things were okay!!
Good point you made there. I infact did remind Karthik that engine oil had to be changed on the car after 1,000 kms. I don't know what his tuner suggested would be the ideal point at which the oil change had to be done, because Karthik said he had it covered. Also, I made it a point to ask Karthik to call up the people in charge of his build and inform them about the car knocking, failing which I wouldn't be driving the car at all and risk it being blown. I think Karthik will be in a better position to tell us what exactly he was asked to do.

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I am assuming no. So if you guys are showing slack on your part by not doing the most basic things, blaming a tuner for a shoddy work is not a good thing to do maite.
Shrey, I haven't "blamed" anyone, so stop reading between the lines. I respect Sanju a lot. Infact given my past experiences I am very picky about my tuner and had even entrusted my own baleno with him a few months back to sort out the niggles. And it doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you are running high compression, you most definitely need an ECU to handle the fuelling and more importantly the ignition (since baleno has a distributorless type). I wasn't aware the compression was upped (heck, infact neither of us are sure even now because when Karthik tried to enquire, he was asked to just drive the car back to Bangalore safely and the rest would be looked after). Had I had a heads up, I would not have taken that car out at all without an ECU or atleast hooked up my ECU for the time being. I know its a risk not worth taking. If you notice, I have already given you a solution that could have solved all this. Plonk in an ECU. I still can't understand why the car left RD without an ECU but with all the wiring completed.

Also what does engine oil change have to do with a car knocking when its done some 700 odd kms? I doubt the knocking had anything to do with engine oil change.

Also I can vouch that atleast I didn't show any "slack" on my part. I kept urging a kid who wanted to show off his newly modded fast car (haven't we all done the same too back when we were young?) to his friends to understand the nuances and made sure he didn't tear the engine apart. I think I did my bit, every step of the way. How many of us can say that we didn't manage to hit top speed on our cars after the running in period? Till the day I left, the top speed that car had done was 147kmph. Tell me how many of us would have held back to see what our car was capable of? If driving the car around slowly, to prevent it from blowing is showing slack on our part, so be it.

Quote:
According to me, Karthik wanted something and he explained that to his tuner, the end result is that he got what he wanted.
Honestly, I don't think Karthik even knows how to identify a knock from the sound coming from his lower arms. He is a first timer to this modding scene and I am wondering what could have happened if he hadn't realized his car was knocking. Anyways, in my post itself I have mentioned that this is "MY" opinion. One that you and even the owner of the car doesn't have to agree with. I just put up what I thought of the car. Like you only said, take it with a pinch of salt, or just ignore it.

Quote:
If I am not mistaken the tuner he went to this time is someone who would not do a shabby shoddy job and try and make a fast one. He is someone who is respected by one and all in this industry and to doubt on his workmanship is something which is unheard off.
Like I said earlier, stop reading in between the lines.

Last edited by mclaren1885 : 1st August 2009 at 11:21.
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Old 3rd August 2009, 11:09   #267
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Thats a good review there Rahul, where is Karthik by the way. I expected him to be excited about the build and to be the first one to tell us how it feels to have his car modded. But he is no where to be seen.

Lemme see if I understood the aim of the build. Even though Karthik had many mind changes at the end all he wanted was a fast street car which was 'Reliable'. I guess that the reason why he dropped FI plans also.

Lets not debate how to runin an engine because we can discuss that for pages and still come to no conclusion. Final call on run in is made by the tuner depending on a few parameters of the build. So Karthik should have got clear cut instructions on running in.

Secondly if a car is not ready, it should never leave the tuner's place. There is no excuse for that.

Lets now come to the car's condition. Why is a street car running high compression so thta it knocks on 91 octane? Why was the owner unaware that he is running hig compression? Why was the owner not instructed on the high octane and the right octane fuel? Street build knocking is unacceptable. How do you expect people to pour in 97 octance plus octane boosters everytime they take out their car to go to office or on a tour?

Cant really give a solution can we, by saying ECU will solve all issues. I dont agree to that. Why increase compression and then back off timing? Kinda beats the whole point.

Now Rahul, coming to suspension understeering. Pedders are just street suspensions. They are not adjustable but VRD. they are better than stock but u can expect track handling from them. But I bet they are comfy.

Shrey, I disagree with you on a few things there. Why are you saying "you guys"? Why is Rahul in the picture? There are only two people responsible for a build: The Owner and the Tuner. Its as simple as that. Karthik asked for something but did he really get what he asked?

Agree with you on the part that he should have gone back to clear all issues. But would a newbie to modding know when his cars knock? Would he know if there was actually an issue. I believe Karthik has neither modded any of his cars before nor has been in many modded balenos.

Whats the obsession with short ration gearboxes anyways? Why would you hvae a short ratio gearbox to end up with a top speed slower than a stock car? I must be really missing something here.

Whats really amuzing is where is Karthik?
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Old 4th August 2009, 00:33   #268
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Whats the obsession with short ration gearboxes anyways? Why would you hvae a short ratio gearbox to end up with a top speed slower than a stock car? I must be really missing something here.
You have to drive a good close-ratio box to understand. There's a reason why everything from a Honda Type R to a Ferrari 355 have a short final (gear) drive. And for most of us, who almost never hit the highway for sustained periods, top speeds are merely academic.
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Old 4th August 2009, 08:13   #269
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Cant compare our cars to the type r or a ferrari. The reason for short ratios on those cars is not the reason to have it on a baleno.

Now the second part I do understand. I agree with you.
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Old 4th August 2009, 10:52   #270
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OK, let me make a post to clear all this confusion here..

A few months back when i got the car, i took it to RD and just told them one thing.. that i need a fast reliable street car. Thats it. The rest was left upto them to do whatever was needed so that i could get what i wanted.

These are the mods that were planned to be done..
1. Ported n polished head
2. Close ratio gearbox
3. Cams
4. Exhaust
5. ECU
6. Suspension
7. Clutch
8. Intake
9. Rebuilt engine

Now once the engine was rebuilt, i had some 1.5-2k kms of running in to do. So anyways since i was planning to go to Kerala, i thought i might as well take the car and get some miles on it and get done with the running in. So when i got the car back from RD, these are the mods that were done.

1. Port n polish
2. Close ratio gearbox
3. Suspension
4. Clutch
6. Rebuilt engine

They had decided to do the intake and the exhaust mods once the running in was complete. The cams were ordered and would take about 20days to arrive so they were also not ready when i got the car. The ECU wiring was done but the ECU WAS NOT CONNECTED.

For the running in, the instructions were simple.. be easy on the throttle, keep it below 3000rpms. Thats it. And thats how it was for a good 1800kms or so.

The knocking was first noticed on the way to TVM. We first thought it must be cuz of bad fuel, but the knocking went on even after filling from one of the best fuel pumps in the city. A call was made to RD and they were informed about the condition of the car, and how it was driving. They were also informed that the car was knocking. They told me once the car is back, everything will be sorted out and the build will be complete.

Now recently, last week when we took the car out for a spin, we just tried launching the car at 4000rpm and the gearbox snapped. 1st gear was gone. It would engage but the car wouldn't move. As the other gears were working fine, we managed to get the car to MASS and get it checked. As of now, the car is still at MASS waiting for the ordered parts to come. They did tell me what all was broken inside the gearbox, but ill just confirm with them about the parts and post it here.

Now about the car, i haven't been in any fast Baleno's before, so i can't comment on how good or how bad it is compared to other similar builds. But then, maybe once all the mods are done and RD does a VBOX run for me, as promised, we'll know how the car is actually performing. Right now, i don't think its right to blame anyone as the build is still incomplete.
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