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Old 4th August 2009, 11:01   #271
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Originally Posted by ssjr0498 View Post
All said and done, I had one question for you, did karthik or you go back to your tuner after you finished 500-1000kms for the very important oil change and the preliminary checks. Giving him an opportunity to see if things were okay!!

I am assuming no. So if you guys are showing slack on your part by not doing the most basic things, blaming a tuner for a shoddy work is not a good thing to do maite.
No, i couldn't as i was a few hundred kms away from BLR. But calls had been made to RD giving an update on the situation. Its not like i didn't inform then about how the car was running.


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Originally Posted by ssjr0498 View Post
According to me, Karthik wanted something and he explained that to his tuner, the end result is that, he got what he wanted.If not he should have gone back to the tuner first and explained the issues to him then.I am sure things would have been taken care off. Its too late to crib now. I dont think it will be right to blame the tuner at this point in time.

Cheers
Shrey
You can't say i have got what i wanted as a lot of work is still left, and probably once the car is in BLR the rest of the work will be done.

And the only main issue with the car was that it was knocking. I wasn't told about the high compression build. Its not that i have a problem with it, but maybe it would have been best if something was done to prevent it when i took car car from RD.

Last edited by karthik247 : 4th August 2009 at 11:04.
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Old 4th August 2009, 11:45   #272
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Originally Posted by crazydiablo View Post
Even though Karthik had many mind changes at the end all he wanted was a fast street car which was 'Reliable'. I guess that the reason why he dropped FI plans also.
Yup! Karthik can be influenced very easily IMO. And he normally wishes to make the wrong decisions . Like going and picking up 17'' for a baleno.

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Secondly if a car is not ready, it should never leave the tuner's place. There is no excuse for that.
Completely agree on that one. If I had even the slightest of clue that the car was running high compression I would have taken a bus to TVM instead of risking driving the car without an ECU.

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Why is a street car running high compression so thta it knocks on 91 octane?
Amongst all the hooplah of saying I want a street reliable fast car, I know deep inside Karthik wanted to build a car that would be good at the drag strip too. AFAIK, he wanted a car that could beat 16.287 secs on a 1/4 mile (time set by my car and that is what he was promised). The discussion on the build ended there.

One more thing, at some point when Karthik wasn't able to find out what compression he was running, I asked him to go get the in cylinder compression tested from MASS, that way we could know if the knocking was due to higher compression or some other issue. But he didn't do that either.

Quote:
Why was the owner unaware that he is running hig compression?
Good point, exactly my thoughts. Infact, when I figured the car was knocking I immediately asked Karthik to call up and inform them about the situation and see if they could send a ECU down or advice him to run octane boosters. But he was just asked to drive the car back home without belting it.

Quote:
Why was the owner not instructed on the high octane and the right octane fuel?
I did ask Karthik to pick up some octane boosters from Peter at Cochin. But he didn't bother paying head to my words. After trying to knock sense into him a couple of times I gave up.

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Cant really give a solution can we, by saying ECU will solve all issues. I dont agree to that. Why increase compression and then back off timing? Kinda beats the whole point.
I kinda agree to your point, but the baleno being a distributorless ignition type only makes it a tad harder. But given the situation, the only way you can stop the knocking is either by using a FPR and pumping in excess fuel or get an ECU to handle everything. I would recommend the later.

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Now Rahul, coming to suspension understeering. Pedders are just street suspensions. They are not adjustable but VRD.
IIRC, Karthik tells me he was told they are adjustable. I don't know how far this is true, but seeing that his knowledge about most things apart from bling is next to zero he could have misinterpreted it completely.. And I did try to hint at him that they weren't adjustable but he kept arguing, so I gave up. If I were him, if I could afford to spend 50k on suspension, I would have gone a bit further and picked up J.Anand's suspension. Atleast its tried and tested and the best we can buy in this country apart from DMS.

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Shrey, I disagree with you on a few things there. Why are you saying "you guys"? Why is Rahul in the picture? There are only two people responsible for a build: The Owner and the Tuner. Its as simple as that. Karthik asked for something but did he really get what he asked?
Honestly, I don't think Karthik at any point of time knew what he wanted. He just kept swaying with different opinions by the minute.

Quote:
But would a newbie to modding know when his cars knock? Would he know if there was actually an issue. I believe Karthik has neither modded any of his cars before nor has been in many modded balenos.
Honestly, Karthik's knowledge about engine related stuff is zero. He didn't even realize his car was knocking even after I mentioned it to him. At the same time I can confidently say that had I not been around to keep warning him, he would have blown that engine to bits. I was more like his speed limiter . Which is why I would not take lightly to some of Shrey's comments accusing me of not going back to the tuner. I made sure Karthik called up his tuner and mention to him about the issues with the car.

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Whats the obsession with short ration gearboxes anyways? Why would you hvae a short ratio gearbox to end up with a top speed slower than a stock car?
I must say even I used to think the same earlier. But once I switches to a shorter ratio gearbox I actually loved it. But I also prefer not loosing out on the top end too much. IMO, I got the best setup for my car. Short enough, yet keeps my car around a 200kmph elantra.

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Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
You have to drive a good close-ratio box to understand. And for most of us, who almost never hit the highway for sustained periods, top speeds are merely academic.
I agree with his first statement, but since I am one of those guys who loves driving on the highway top speeds do matter a lot to me.

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Originally Posted by crazydiablo View Post
Cant compare our cars to the type r or a ferrari. The reason for short ratios on those cars is not the reason to have it on a baleno.
I agree with the logic. The only reason to run a short ratio gearbox would be to see if you like it. Not because some Ferrari or Porsche is running one.

Let me just clear up a few issues here to all parties concerned, the owner, the tuner and the rest. I have heard some people make some comments like "Why do you let Tom, Dick, Harry drive your car" to Karthik. As much as I know it was aimed at me, let me make it very clear that at no point did I try to strain the engine on that car because I am very well aware what happens when your car is knocking. Like I mentioned earlier the top speed I hit was some 115kmph. And that for all those who know me is a joke. Last thing I need is people thinking I belted the car around. Infact it was quite the contrary, I kept asking Karthik to take care of his car and had plenty of arguments on the topic too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karthik247
Now recently, last week when we took the car out for a spin, we just tried launching the car at 4000rpm and the gearbox snapped. 1st gear was gone. It would engage but the car wouldn't move.
This incident happened the day I was in Cochin.

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Right now, i don't think its right to blame anyone as the build is still incomplete.
True! But the point we are trying to make is, why was the car out with the build incomplete? Did you force them saying you had to be at TVM with the car? Leaving them with no choice but to deliver the car? If my worst fears are true and you do have a blown engine who is going to take the responsibility for it? If I were you, I would do the following:

1. Get the ECU fitted first.
2. Get the cams and headers to boost up your top end of the rev range.
3. Change the ratios.
4. Go back to a stage 1 clutch.

More importantly, I would first ask myself what I want from a build and stick to it than changing my mind every 2 secs. I remember you telling me you wanted to go turbo just before I left TVM. And kindly learn to respect your car. Launching at 4,000 rpm knowing your car is knocking is plain stupid. Specially given the situation you had to go through in the previous few days to this incident I am even surprised you have the guts to try all this. Karthik, when will you learn a lesson?

Last edited by mclaren1885 : 4th August 2009 at 11:47.
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Old 4th August 2009, 12:13   #273
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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
Amongst all the hooplah of saying I want a street reliable fast car, I know deep inside Karthik wanted to build a car that would be good at the drag strip too.
Yes, i definately did. But that would have just been a bonus. Like i said, i wanted a car built for steet and not drags or tracks. But if its good enough to be on a drap strip then great.


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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
I did ask Karthik to pick up some octane boosters from Peter at Cochin
I could have bought a few octane boosters, sure. But then, what would i do for the rest of the days i was at TVM? Keep tanking up and putting in octane boosters? Its not practical and not exactly economical.


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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
But the point we are trying to make is, why was the car out with the build incomplete? Did you force them saying you had to be at TVM with the car? Leaving them with no choice but to deliver the car?
No, it was not like i forced them to deliver the car. They gave me a date on which i could take the car and i planned the trip based on that.

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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
Launching at 4,000 rpm knowing your car is knocking is plain stupid.
Yes, it maybe be stupid. But still, whatever happened with the box' shouldn't have happened that too on a modded gearbox.


And about the suspension, i mainly wanted adjustable lowering springs. I told them i want the Pedders ONLY if they are like that and only later realised they weren't adjustables.

Last edited by karthik247 : 4th August 2009 at 12:17.
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Old 4th August 2009, 12:20   #274
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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
Completely agree on that one. If I had even the slightest of clue that the car was running high compression I would have taken a bus to TVM instead of risking driving the car without an ECU.
does a high comp setup absolutely require a different ECU to keep it safe? my car was high comp'd and I drove it back to Hyderabad, ran it in, fooled around for two months, got it back to RD and *then* connected the 0601 with no problems throughout.

the fuel was almost always Shell Super Unleaded but there were a couple of occasions where I had to settle for regular fuel. still nothing happened.
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Old 4th August 2009, 12:26   #275
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Honestly, tell me one thing!! Do you know why a engine knocks!!

Just FYI!! and the intelligent being who told you that its only because of high comp that your engine is knocking!! I would like to tell you that having HIGH COMP is not the only reason why a car would knock.

Even if you dont have a HIGH COMP engine there are a whole lot of things that can lead to an engine knocking and yeah.. plz dont comeback telling me that the other reason is "bad fuel". Everyone is aware of that.

Anyway, in your case none of the above was the reason for your car to knock!!

To be frank with you, It's not my car neither my build and I have nothing in it. I have been following you thread and have heard about this whole "building a fast car" deal right from the days of you searching and deciding on which car to buy. It looks like that you have no clue as to what's going on and what should you do and not!!

IMO, if you have any issues with the car, speak directly to your tuner and not many "google it " stars and wannabe's.

The reason for me posting this on your build thread in this manner is that, only ONE side of the story is being told to so may fellow bhpian's who are religiously following this thread! Directly or indirectly you are blaming your tuner for no fault of his! Thereby bringing a bad name to him!

There are ppl on this forum who would SWEAR by his build and to let the other few bhpian's know, the guy who build this car is the same guy who did WOLF's Vtec, the fastest OHC Vtec in India which coincidently is also Wolf's daily drive. He has more experience in engine building and has been building rally cars and drag machines even before you and me were born!!

So cut some slack here my friend!

Had it been his fault, you WOULD (SHOULD) have been dancing on his head by now.

So, stop this blame game and its a sincere request as a fellow bhpian, once your car is done with whatever's happening to it, please take it to your tuner and sort it out with him and no one else. No point in all this mudslinging.

Cheers
Shrey

PS: please take this post in a postive way, I do not intend to demean anyone here!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by karthik247 View Post
No, i couldn't as i was a few hundred kms away from BLR. But calls had been made to RD giving an update on the situation. Its not like i didn't inform then about how the car was running.




You can't say i have got what i wanted as a lot of work is still left, and probably once the car is in BLR the rest of the work will be done.

And the only main issue with the car was that it was knocking. I wasn't told about the high compression build. Its not that i have a problem with it, but maybe it would have been best if something was done to prevent it when i took car car from RD.

Last edited by ssjr0498 : 4th August 2009 at 12:36.
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Old 4th August 2009, 12:50   #276
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Originally Posted by ssjr0498 View Post
Honestly, tell me one thing!! Do you know why a engine knocks!!
No, i don't know why it knocks and all. But i surely know it shouldn't knock, whatever the reason is. Also it would be nice if you could explain the reasons besides high comp. and bad fuel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssjr0498 View Post
IMO, if you have any issues with the car, speak directly to your tuner
Like i've been saying over and over... I've been doing that. And like i said before, the only issue as such was the knocking, and i had informed the concerned people about it just 2days after i took the car.

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Originally Posted by ssjr0498 View Post
Directly or indirectly you are blaming your tuner for no fault of his! Thereby bringing a bad name to him!
Shrey, i don't know whats making you think im BLAMING the tuner. If you read my previous posts, i very clearly mentioned that 'im not blaming anyone right now as the build is still incomplete'. Guess you missed that line.

I do not intend to defame anyone here or put the blame on anyone. Since a few members have seen and driven the car, they posted their review about the car. And what i've posted was about what happened with the car in the past month.

So instead of blaming me by saying i showed slack on my part and all, its best if we all take all this in a positive way, just like you said

Last edited by karthik247 : 4th August 2009 at 12:59.
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Old 4th August 2009, 12:56   #277
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That's the spirit my friend! Not many would have been so cool about it and yeah if I missed that line, too bad for me.

Looking forward to see you at RD soon!!

Cheers
Shrey

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Originally Posted by karthik247 View Post
No, i don't know why it knocks and all. But i surely know it shouldn't knock, whatever the reason is. Also it would be nice if you could explain the reasons besides high comp. and bad fuel.


Like i've been saying over and over... I've been doing that. And like i said before, the only issue as such was the knocking, and i had informed the concerned people about it just 2days after i took the car.


Shrey, i don't know whats making you think im BLAMING the tuner. If you read my previous posts, i very clearly mentioned that 'im not blaming anyone right now as the build is still incomplete'. Guess you missed that line.
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Old 4th August 2009, 13:37   #278
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Originally Posted by karthik247 View Post
Yes, i definately did. But that would have just been a bonus. Like i said, i wanted a car built for steet and not drags or tracks. But if its good enough to be on a drap strip then great.
Karthik, honestly. A street setup can never be good on a strip and vice versa.

Quote:
I could have bought a few octane boosters, sure. But then, what would i do for the rest of the days i was at TVM? Keep tanking up and putting in octane boosters? Its not practical and not exactly economical.
You are right. Its not practical/economical. But it would anyday be cheaper than the need to have another rebuild should something go wrong? I wouldn't have thought twice to use octane boosters if I were you.

Quote:
Yes, it maybe be stupid. But still, whatever happened with the box' shouldn't have happened that too on a modded gearbox.
You are lucky (I am hoping) to get away with just a busted gear box. You could have blown the engine to bits. All the testing should have been done "after" you got the issues sorted out back at Bangy.


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Originally Posted by ssjr0498 View Post
Honestly, tell me one thing!! Do you know why a engine knocks!!
Looks like you have a lot of experience with knocking. Why don't you enlighten us Shrey?

Quote:
Just FYI!! and the intelligent being who told you that its only because of high comp that your engine is knocking!! I would like to tell you that having HIGH COMP is not the only reason why a car would knock.
Since you are referring (taking a dig to be more appropriate) at me being the "intelligent being" can you explain to me why a "newly rebuilt" engine should knock otherwise? Either it can be due to bad fuel, high comp, or incompetence shown while rebuilding the engine or bad plugs? I doubt that later is true (sine I know Sanjay would not have left any loose ends) and since the first reason was eliminated I was assuming the second would be true. To clarify my point I asked Karthik to get a compression test done.

Quote:
Even if you dont have a HIGH COMP engine there are a whole lot of things that can lead to an engine knocking and yeah..
Yes, you are right. But doesn't that mean whoever worked on the engine didn't do a good job at it? Maybe didn't check the condition of the plugs, maybe left something inside the engine by mistake, there could be a million reasons. I can understand that an engine that has done thousands of kms knocking, but a newly rebuilt engine to knock for reasons other than bad fuel and high comp only says one thing. Something went wrong somewhere. Unless that is what you are hinting at? Is there something you know that we don't Shrey?

Quote:
Anyway, in your case none of the above was the reason for your car to knock!!
So can we have your expertise on this issue please? You claim to know what we don't. So enlighten us.

Quote:
It looks like that you have no clue as to what's going on and what should you do and not!!
Yup! You are right on that one though. I have been telling Karthik the same since day 1. Also might I add that you are no way better? Advocating and arguing over the cross drilled rotors thing? It would help if you stopped misleading people into carrying out mods that could put their lives into danger. Feel free to try it on your own car.

Quote:
IMO, if you have any issues with the car, speak directly to your tuner and not many "google it " stars and wannabe's.
Let me make another thing clear here. Calls were made to Pawan to inform him of the situation repeatedly. But instead of telling Karthik if he was running on high comp or giving us a solution to the issue all he said was "drive the car back to Bangalore without belting it?". What if the engine could have blown at any point on the highway and we could have been stranded in the middle of nowhere? Its not a pleasant thing Shrey and I don't expect you to understand my concern here.


Quote:
The reason for me posting this on your build thread in this manner is that, only ONE side of the story is being told to so may fellow bhpian's who are religiously following this thread! Directly or indirectly you are blaming your tuner for no fault of his! Thereby bringing a bad name to him!
I mentioned this earlier and saying it again, stop adding fuel to a fire that doesn't exist. And has anyone stopped RDkarthik or pawan from posting on this thread? They are active members here, why is it that you are speaking on their behalf?

Quote:
Had it been his fault, you WOULD (SHOULD) have been dancing on his head by now.
So what is it that you are hinting at again? I don't have a habit of beating around the bush. So can you be direct?
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Old 4th August 2009, 15:48   #279
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Before this turns into a battle of misunderstandings let me make my points very clear.

1. When I drove the car, I heard it knocking. Initially I assumed it to be because of bad fuel, but that got eliminated after we filled up some good fuel and the knocking continued. Then my next suspicion was high comp, because the knocking sounded very familiar to that on my car, only lesser in volume. But there was no way we could be sure and all attempts to find out if the car was running on high comp failed. I didn't expect any mechanical failure on a newly rebuilt engine, specially given the fact that the car was driven under 2k rpm the whole time. So ruled that bit out .

2. I only suggested that if an ECU was hooked in, maybe we could have had a better control over the fueling and ignition. Atleast that way we could have eliminated that it wasn't due to high compression. I didn't intend to make it look like the guys at RD didn't know what they were doing. RdKarthik, if my post made you feel that way, I am sorry but you misunderstood me. My only question was, why the car delivered without completing the build? And with just 200kms of testing, why was the car allowed to go out of town?

3. I admit there could be various reasons for the knock apart from ignition, fueling but I didn't expect a fully rebuilt engine to show up issues in such a short duration (less than 500kms). But I think its best to wait for the car to come back and have it thoroughly checked. I don't mind being proved wrong.

4. Karthik was asked to come back with the car after a running-in of 1000 kms it seems. Somehow this wasn't communicated to me. Makes me wonder, if the car had to be back, how was it allowed to go for a out of town trip? Knowing Trivandrum is 900 kms one way.

5. Honestly, at hindsight it looks like it was a bad idea to take the car out on an outstation trip unless you clock atleast a 1000 kms to test & rectify the niggles. Atleast the issues could have been addressed and looked into immediately if the car was in town. Must remember to add this point to the "How to modify your car thread".

6. At every step I made it a point to make sure Karthik communicated to his tuner what was happening with the car. At every step I made sure he didn't redline the car. And what do I get in return? Gyan from someone who doesn't practice his own preachings and to better it a blame that I was talking rubbish.

7. I didn't put up the review to degrade anyone. I just put up what I saw, after duly having communicated the same to the people concerned through Karthik247. At no point, have I had any doubts that Rdk would leave any stone unturned to sort out all the issues on the car. I have great respect for that man and his work. Yet, for some odd reason things are getting blown out of proportion with the name calling et all, that too by people who are in no way concerned with the build or have sat in the car since its been delivered.

Rdkarthik and co, rather than taking this feedback negatively, I request you guys to take it up positively, sort out the niggles on the car and tell us what exactly went wrong and prove me wrong. I just stated what I felt of the car, you are welcome to correct/prove me wrong. I don't see a reason to get worked up and getting personal here.

I have mentioned this in my first post and repeat it again. These are "MY" opinions and observations.

Last edited by mclaren1885 : 4th August 2009 at 15:51.
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Old 4th August 2009, 22:13   #280
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Wah wah, what a fun thread. Just like the old days.

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Originally Posted by crazydiablo View Post
Cant compare our cars to the type r or a ferrari. The reason for short ratios on those cars is not the reason to have it on a baleno.
Ok, I didn't mean it that way. I meant that a shorter gear will always equal faster acceleration. Period. It's physics. And the 150-175 hp Type Rs and ZRs are pretty close to some of our modded cars in terms of performance, and they run 4.3-4.4 FDs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885
Karthik, honestly. A street setup can never be good on a strip and vice versa.
I beg to disagree.

Last edited by v1p3r : 4th August 2009 at 22:29.
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Old 4th August 2009, 22:30   #281
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Cant compare our cars to the type r or a ferrari. The reason for short ratios on those cars is not the reason to have it on a baleno.
Infact, its the other way around. Our Indian cars have to do with a much lower power to weight ratio, so in order to make up for this lack of power/torque, it makes all the more sense to get the gearing sorted out such that the most amount of torque/power is transfered to the wheel at a given vehicle speed.

Changing to a shorter FD is just one part of the mod, you will also need to get the gears closer, so that when you upshift, the engine rpm doesn't drop too low (as is the case in most cars).

In the OHC Vtec itself, shifting at 7100 in 1st drops the revvs all the way to 4200rpm in 2nd. While this is ok when you're driving normally, on a track/drag strip it does make a diff.

Shan2nu

Last edited by Shan2nu : 4th August 2009 at 22:32.
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Old 4th August 2009, 23:10   #282
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dont know what to say!!!
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Old 4th August 2009, 23:40   #283
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dont know what to say!!!
lol. A "balenoholic" doesn't know what to say!!!
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Old 4th August 2009, 23:42   #284
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dont know what to say!!!
Still trying to recover from the past are we Amit?
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Old 5th August 2009, 00:08   #285
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exactly..
well i got another one..thats for later.
but this is hilarious!!!


rahul guess you are virtually the jinx buddy no offence

Last edited by iceman91 : 5th August 2009 at 00:11.
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Some questions serious ones...? S350L-E240 Technical Stuff 33 7th May 2004 19:59


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