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Old 5th August 2009, 01:09   #286
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Originally Posted by iceman91 View Post
exactly..
well i got another one..thats for later.
but this is hilarious!!!
Congrats on the black beauty Amit. You need to start a new thread on that.

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rahul guess you are virtually the jinx buddy no offence
True Amit! I was beginning to wonder so, myself!
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Old 5th August 2009, 10:58   #287
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Looks like a lot of things have been blown out of proportion. The way it actually was -

The car came to us for an ECU, we installed the wiring harness and checked cylinder compressions, which were 110psi, 140psi, 160psi and 140psi. Very bad. We recommend him an engine rebuild, and as the owner wanted a fast street car, suggested a set of mods for exactly that.


The following is the state of the car -
1. Standard baleno pistons (75mm)
2. Static compression pressures are 210psi on all cylinders
3. Stage 2 exedy clutch
4. Lightened flywheel
5. Head ported for slightly wilder cam. ( Stock cam as of now )
6. An intermediate shorter gearbox to test. The owner has options of gearboxes to feel what he would really want.

The car's compression and stress levels are more or less close to stock. It did not need a different ECU to run-in. We did 200km of testing, and as the owner wanted to use the car we instructed him to stay sub 2000RPMs and never to exceed 3000RPM, go easy on the throttle, finish 1000 to 1500km of running-in and get back to us.


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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
.


In short, the car left me very disappointed. I wasn't expecting to hear the engine knock. If only it had the ECU plugged in, most of this could have been avoided. Now don't ask me why the ECU was not on the car. I have no clue.
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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post

If I had even the slightest of clue that the car was running high compression I would have taken a bus to TVM instead of risking driving the car without an ECU.

Amongst all the hooplah of saying I want a street reliable fast car, I know deep inside Karthik wanted to build a car that would be good at the drag strip too. AFAIK, he wanted a car that could beat 16.287 secs on a 1/4 mile (time set by my car and that is what he was promised). The discussion on the build ended there.


Good point, exactly my thoughts. Infact, when I figured the car was knocking I immediately asked Karthik to call up and inform them about the situation and see if they could send a ECU down or advice him to run octane boosters. But he was just asked to drive the car back home without belting it.
I hope all the above will answer your queries

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I kinda agree to your point, but the baleno being a distributorless ignition type only makes it a tad harder. But given the situation, the only way you can stop the knocking is either by using a FPR and pumping in excess fuel or get an ECU to handle everything. I would recommend the later.
I dont know if this was the only way out with the cars you have seen, but there are lots more to it.

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Honestly, Karthik's knowledge about engine related stuff is zero. He didn't even realize his car was knocking even after I mentioned it to him.
Thats exactly why we refrain from disclosing the complete build details. There are dime-a-dozen advices, suggestions and recommendations pouring from all over can get rather frustratingly confusing for him.

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Let me just clear up a few issues here to all parties concerned, the owner, the tuner and the rest. I have heard some people make some comments like "Why do you let Tom, Dick, Harry drive your car" to Karthik. As much as I know it was aimed at me, let me make it very clear that at no point did I try to strain the engine on that car because I am very well aware what happens when your car is knocking. Like I mentioned earlier the top speed I hit was some 115kmph. And that for all those who know me is a joke. Last thing I need is people thinking I belted the car around. Infact it was quite the contrary, I kept asking Karthik to take care of his car and had plenty of arguments on the topic too.

Quote:

Soon I notice that the car is like a diesel turbo. Nice powerband from 2,000-4,000. Engines screams for mercy after that. Note to self: Maybe headers and cam will make up for the loss in high revs?

I get into the drivers seat only to find out that the gear ratios are really really short. Car does 95 kmph at 4,000 in 5th gear. GPS shows a speed of around 109kmph. IIRC my car used to do ~140kmph at 4,000 and 180kmph at 5,000 in 5th. So my guess is this cars top end might not be more than 160-170kmph. A feat I would not want to try, until the car has run around 5,000 kms.



We stop for a fag break, we switch places and before I know GPS shows a top whack of 147kmph. I warn Karthik to back off as the car is knocking badly and it wasn't safe pushing the car.
This is a new engine and it needs running-in, by which we recommended sub 2000RPMs (never over 3000RPM) low load driving, but looking at what you have posted the limits were exceeded, especially after you had already felt something was wrong with the engine. I've always regarded you as someone quite experienced and responsible who has been a part of the scene for a while now, but this is a little strange coming from you...

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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
I didn't expect any mechanical failure on a newly rebuilt engine, specially given the fact that the car was driven under 2k rpm the whole time. So ruled that bit out .

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2. I only suggested that if an ECU was hooked in, maybe we could have had a better control over the fueling and ignition. Atleast that way we could have eliminated that it wasn't due to high compression. I didn't intend to make it look like the guys at RD didn't know what they were doing. RdKarthik, if my post made you feel that way, I am sorry but you misunderstood me. My only question was, why the car delivered without completing the build? And with just 200kms of testing, why was the car allowed to go out of town?

3. I admit there could be various reasons for the knock apart from ignition, fueling but I didn't expect a fully rebuilt engine to show up issues in such a short duration (less than 500kms). But I think its best to wait for the car to come back and have it thoroughly checked. I don't mind being proved wrong.
The above i'm sure will answer these too. I am looking forward for (3) too..

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7. I didn't put up the review to degrade anyone. I just put up what I saw, after duly having communicated the same to the people concerned through Karthik247. At no point, have I had any doubts that Rdk would leave any stone unturned to sort out all the issues on the car. I have great respect for that man and his work. Yet, for some odd reason things are getting blown out of proportion with the name calling et all, that too by people who are in no way concerned with the build or have sat in the car since its been delivered.

Rdkarthik and co, rather than taking this feedback negatively, I request you guys to take it up positively, sort out the niggles on the car and tell us what exactly went wrong and prove me wrong. I just stated what I felt of the car, you are welcome to correct/prove me wrong. I don't see a reason to get worked up and getting personal here.

.
Mclaren, I sincerely appreciate your honesty and transparency in posting your review, nothing taken negative at all hoping the points above will help clear up the confusion..

In the meantime, will post up what exactly the 'knocking' was once we get the car back with us...
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Old 5th August 2009, 13:07   #288
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Originally Posted by rdkarthik View Post
Thats exactly why we refrain from disclosing the complete build details.
Karthik I would tend to disagree here . Unless I know what is running in MY car, it would be nearly impossible for me to analyze what the problem could be (specially when my tuner is not approachable) or even to give an honest feedback to a tuner. For eg, if I am unaware that my gear ratios have altered and in a particular gear I am dropping out of the powerband, I would not even dream what could be wrong, so what feedback can I give to my tuner? Another simple example, higher compression needs better unadulterated fuel. Unless I am told specifically that my compression has been increased, I would fill up at any road side bunk as it would not be a cause of worry for me knowing very well the stock motor can handle it. And we all know how modded engines are sensitive to fuel. The point I am trying to make here is, if I am told what exactly I am running in my car, it will give me a better understanding of how to maintain my car and what necessary things that need to be looked into.

I have always felt, specially for a street build the owners have every right to know what is running on their cars. Specially given that one is paying for the mods and its not some freebies being dished out. I have never understood the whole funda of tuners trying to keep the specs a secret. In that regard, I have deep respect for Ron Chinoy who even put up pics of his P&P head. I mean how many tuners actually do that? If we are to get professional, there has to be more transperancy in this field. But that is just my opinion. Kindly note that this is not aimed at you, but just in general to all the tuners in the country.

Tuning cars is like cooking. You might have the recepie, but a dish my mom makes ends up being more tastier than mine even on using the same ingredients. I would love to see a day, when a tuner X puts out his specs openly and challenges anyone to copy it and better his build.

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I dont know if this was the only way out with the cars you have seen, but there are lots more to it.
Karthik, for the benefit of all why don't you put up the other factors so that it will help many people diagnose should such a problem be seen in their cars. Maybe we can use it as a ready reckoner on the "How to mod/tune your car" thread?

Quote:
This is a new engine and it needs running-in, by which we recommended sub 2000RPMs (never over 3000RPM) low load driving, but looking at what you have posted the limits were exceeded, especially after you had already felt something was wrong with the engine.
Let me clear this bit once for all. For most part of our holiday (lasting 16 days) the car was driven well within 2,000 rpm and rarely hitting 3,000 rpm. But there was a point, when Karthik fell in love with a Fiesta 1.6S and had made up his mind to sell his baleno. We travelled to Cochin and back to check out some Fiesta's and by then the car had already clocked 2,000 kms. So knowing very well he was going to get rid of the car Karthik decided to open the car up a bit (to see what it can do) and it was then he hit a top speed of 147kmph. But once I heard the knocking again, I asked him to ease off & he did. I can vouch for that. And if you know me, you ought to know that I don't have a habit of lying or covering up for someone who ruined my peace of mind for 3 days . So when I say, the car was driven at 2,000 rpm for the first 1,500 kms I expect you to believe me. If you don't, I wont waste my time trying to convince you. Yes the car was pushed a bit, only to check if it was knocking throughout the rev range but it was done only after 1,500 kms.

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I've always regarded you as someone quite experienced and responsible who has been a part of the scene for a while now, but this is a little strange coming from you...
Karthik, honestly I don't see anything strange. I communicated the issues with the car to you guys through Karthik247. All he was told was to "just drive" (atleast that is what Karthik says Pawan told him). On return, I just posted an honest review, if you read my original post I have mentioned clearly that the build is still incomplete and I would like to do a review once everything is done with again. I honestly believe that a car should never be delivered until EVERY aspect of the build is completed. If not, it arises to complications like this. Which is why I specifically asked Karthik247 if he had forced you guys to deliver the car unfinished. To which his reply was "No, I have told them I am going out of town and they said its safe to take the car. Infact they only said, finish the running-in and on returning we will do up the intake, exhaust, ECU". If I had any clue the compression was increased or that you guys were forced into delivering the car due to the customers pressure (Pawan tells me Karthik insisted he wanted the car so that he could go out of town and he couldn't deny him his car), I would have taken a bus to TVM instead. Its just that after a bad experience with my car I would never want to get stranded in the middle of nowhere again, with no cell phone reception, no mechanics around to help. Hope you understand my concern.

Another review by me from the same trip of Jerish's Fiesta:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/1405749-post128.html

I also gave another review of Ripper's swift. Though its on facebook and haven't yet had the time to do my travelogue thread yet. This review was like just any other review I wrote about the cars I drove on this trip.

Quote:
I am looking forward for (3) too..
Kindly feel free to prove me wrong. You know me, if I think I am wrong I will admit it and duly apologize.

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Mclaren, I sincerely appreciate your honesty and transparency in posting your review, nothing taken negative at all
Exactly what I hoped from you Karthik. I have always believed in putting up honest reviews, I won't say I am right/wrong. I just put up what I felt. And always willing to learn something new.

Quote:
In the meantime, will post up what exactly the 'knocking' was once we get the car back with us...
Its very heartening to see this kind of response. Most tuners would shrug their shoulders off but you guys are a lot different. Awaiting to hear the cause of the problem.

Slightly OT, you mentioned a static compression of 210 on all cylinders? IIRC my car is also running 210-210-220-210 too (could be 220-220-230-220, cant recollect). And you told me it was too high and ideally needed higher octane fuel. Infact even Raj uncle told me to use 97 Octane. Is there any factor why my car wont run on a stock ECU though running the same compression?
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Old 5th August 2009, 13:52   #289
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Rahul.
I wonder why the owner is quite and u keep posting your so called "OPINIONS" like a travelogue.
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Old 5th August 2009, 15:38   #290
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One doubt though, is stage 2 clutch really for street use? Wont it be too hard on the legs??

Ok make it two doubts, any stage 1 or a "heavy duty" stock one available for Swift D, maybe i can try it when i go for a change?
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Old 5th August 2009, 15:39   #291
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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
Unless I know what is running in MY car, it would be nearly impossible for me to analyze what the problem could be (specially when my tuner is not approachable) or even to give an honest feedback to a tuner.

I have always felt, specially for a street build the owners have every right to know what is running on their cars. Specially given that one is paying for the mods and its not some freebies being dished out. I have never understood the whole funda of tuners trying to keep the specs a secret.
I do agree with it. If the owner is interested to know what has gone into the build.


Quote:
Tuning cars is like cooking. You might have the recepie, but a dish my mom makes ends up being more tastier than mine even on using the same ingredients. I would love to see a day, when a tuner X puts out his specs openly and challenges anyone to copy it and better his build.
Lol, its happened many a times

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Karthik, for the benefit of all why don't you put up the other factors so that it will help many people diagnose should such a problem be seen in their cars. Maybe we can use it as a ready reckoner on the "How to mod/tune your car" thread?
When i do manage to squeeze some time out, maybe this and more.


Quote:
Slightly OT, you mentioned a static compression of 210 on all cylinders? IIRC my car is also running 210-210-220-210 too (could be 220-220-230-220, cant recollect). And you told me it was too high and ideally needed higher octane fuel. Infact even Raj uncle told me to use 97 Octane. Is there any factor why my car wont run on a stock ECU though running the same compression?
210psi on a race cam would mean about 240-260psi on stock cam, with a conservative tappet setting. Most group N rally cars have compressions hovering around here. And they are happy taking all the abuse on regular (at times spurious) fuel.

Anyway, the car was tested and deemed fit for a journey, it is/was close to stock specs with finer tolerances. The instructions were to run-in the car for 1000-1500km under 2000RPMs and get it back for further work. Will update once we have had a look at the car.
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Old 5th August 2009, 18:28   #292
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Originally Posted by kpzen View Post
Rahul.
I wonder why the owner is quite and u keep posting your so called "OPINIONS" like a travelogue.
True. And with this I think I am going to stop posting on this car.

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
One doubt though, is stage 2 clutch really for street use? Wont it be too hard on the legs??
Yes, Jaggu I felt the clutch is not streetable. Though its a brilliant clutch for drags and races. For street use though, I would stick to stage 1.

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Ok make it two doubts, any stage 1 or a "heavy duty" stock one available for Swift D, maybe i can try it when i go for a change?
There seems to be a lot of demand for clutches for the diesels like the Elantra, Getz and Swift. Unfortunately, there are no manufacturers making any after market clutches for these cars. Due to popular demand and necessity, some of us are looking into getting some custom clutches made in the US that can handle the additional torque and be streetable. Shall keep you informed on this.

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Originally Posted by rdkarthik View Post
210psi on a race cam would mean about 240-260psi on stock cam, with a conservative tappet setting. Most group N rally cars have compressions hovering around here. And they are happy taking all the abuse on regular (at times spurious) fuel.
Karthik, I am running a 272 degree cam and that is hardly a "race cam profile".
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Old 5th August 2009, 21:50   #293
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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
Another review by me from the same trip of Jerish's Fiesta:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/1405749-post128.html

I also gave another review of Ripper's swift. Though its on facebook...
This review was like just any other review I wrote about the cars I drove on this trip.
Lol, are you turning into a journalist or what?

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
One doubt though, is stage 2 clutch really for street use? Wont it be too hard on the legs??
Naw I don't think so. I'm using a clutch for a power level twice as high as stock, and it's still very much streetable. Just buy good stuff and set it up right, never a problem.

ps. didn't Ron say somewhere that the pics of his headwork are WIP and not final, and that he won't be putting up the final pics? What I do know is that he does not reveal cam specs.
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Old 7th August 2009, 11:25   #294
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Gents, why drag another tuners name to this mess? with respect to any purticular tuners products, only their respective users should have the authority to reveal whether the specs were discussed with the owner before doing the car up. In this case it would be CrazyD.
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Old 7th August 2009, 12:31   #295
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Originally Posted by renamo View Post
Gents, why drag another tuners name to this mess? with respect to any purticular tuners products, only their respective users should have the authority to reveal whether the specs were discussed with the owner before doing the car up. In this case it would be CrazyD.
I couldnt agree more with Renamo on this one! We are grossly offtopic here but since its been mentioned I have a obligation to make a few things clear.

After the head is cut on the CNC machine you do not touch much on the head its got to be 90% done by the time you hit the cnc. I have been part of the cutting process from the start where I am showed the flaws in my build then explained what can be done and what will be done, what are the advantages and risks.

I was part of each and every phase of the build, and I knew the following parameters about my build.

1. BHP curve for each option being discused. I chose the option which made it easy to drive but compromising on peak power.
2. Cam duration / lift
3. AFR being run - Both power mode and Eco mode. I was warned not to race with Eco mode on.
4. Amount of metal planed to be cut from head before it was cut
5. Compression of each cylinder when he took deliver of the car - Measured in front of me. Designed for 91 octane.
6. And many many other factors.

There is no obligation to discuss this or reveal it to the world. But as the owner of the car I do know exactly what I am running under the hood. And it is an agreement of Trust between tuner and client.

All this talk about compression is really confusing. I am running 230psi on all four cylinders with a Street Cam with slightly advanced timing. Am I the only one doing this? No I dont have a standalone ECU, I just run the right AFRs for my requirement.

Oh what were we talking again? A modded car thats knocking which is stranded in kerala with a broken gearbox. Now I have read Karthik (race D) reply several times. All that I could understand what that

1. Karthik does not know the root cause of the knocking
2. There is no explanation why a modded gearbox gave away with a 4K launch. 4K launch is not really a drag launch or race launch.

This is the core issue that needs to be addressed here. I have my sympathy with Karthik (owner), who is stranded in kerala now waiting for parts. Now if the knocking is not due to high compression then MASS can check it out and rectify it.

Why does Karthik247 want to sell the car now? A modded baleno will be so strong in its power band that it will make a stock Fiesta look weak.
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Old 7th August 2009, 20:41   #296
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Amazing, nobody's talking static Compression Ratio which is more important in deciding what fuel you wanna run? Compression pressure can vary depending upon Cams,T.B,Intake etc. What static C.R is the car in question running?
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Old 7th August 2009, 21:18   #297
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Originally Posted by Ford Rocam View Post
Amazing, nobody's talking static Compression Ratio which is more important in deciding what fuel you wanna run? Compression pressure can vary depending upon Cams,T.B,Intake etc. What static C.R is the car in question running?
rdKarthik has replied above that the static compression was 210psi on all the cylinders.
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Old 7th August 2009, 21:21   #298
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Joel he is talking compression Ratio.
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Old 7th August 2009, 22:01   #299
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Cool 5L budget - Baleno put through some serious mods

Note from Mod :

Post discussing G16B specifics has been moved to a new thread on request -
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post1421827 (G16B - Technical Specs?)

Last edited by Rehaan : 9th August 2009 at 18:28.
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Old 8th August 2009, 03:03   #300
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you told you wont reply about this car,but really happy to hear from you again.really wanna know about this mod again as m kinda addicted to this thread.may buy a baleno though not plannin anythin on mod,but still wanna hear from all people who has done somethin worth readin about baleno other than the tail light
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