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Old 21st August 2009, 11:52   #46
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Not arguing with you nor trying to prove a point, but a decently worked NA ohc vtec will kick the downside of any NA B/E/twin cam zen.
I speak from personal experience."Been there done that"

However, a zonda..will take the performance to a different level, having a honda engine sitting on a car which is almost 100+kgs lighter than the OHC's and some other mid sizes, you can be rest assured, nothing will come close!! "Total decimation I say, mind it.."
All said and done, zeesh, what Rahul says is true, get a swap done on the zen, if done correctly its like a pocket rocket amongst the cars..

Secondly, like he said, whosoever said that a carb engine is more reliable than an mpfi one is probably taking you for a ride..

All the best with your mods.

Cheers
Shrey

Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
This is the first time I am hearing that a carb engine is more reliable than an mpfi one. Zeeshan, whoever is feeding you such news is absolutely taking you for a ride. Just get a mpfi baleno/esteem engine like Akshay said. You will have lot less headaches.


Not if done right. E-zen, B-zen, Zonda's are the best bang for the buck for a fast car. No S10, GTX, OHC Vtec, Baleno, Esteem can come close to a bigger engine in a zen (in terms of acceleration). Those who think it isn't worth just haven't driven a fast zen. Thats all.

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Old 21st August 2009, 14:28   #47
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Originally Posted by ssjr0498 View Post
Not arguing with you nor trying to prove a point, but a decently worked NA ohc vtec will kick the downside of any NA B/E/twin cam zen.
I speak from personal experience."Been there done that"
You have obviously driven some badly built E/B zens .

Let us just consider stock engines here & do the math, a stock Vtec puts out around 107bhp/tonne?

A stock bzen puts out 122bhp/tonne. A ezen puts out 113 bhp/tonne. Unless you are trying to tell me a 107bhp/tonne car could be more exciting than a 113/122 bhp/tonne car. Not everyone likes to open their engines and up compression, mod them etc etc. Not everyone can take the risks you and me did. Also lets look at practicality here, not out right drag builds.

Shrey, you need to get out of that bubble that "Honda" is everything and learn to appreciate other stuff as well. Besides OHC is one of the worst handling, powerful cars one can get their hands on. Remember watching the Hyd drag where the B-zen took out the Zonda?

What most people don't realize is that a Zonda is not practical for city use. You have absolutely no torque lower down and the engine comes alive only when the Vtec kicks in. Ordinary people who don't go to drags need torque while driving in town. That is where the e/b/twin cams have an advantage.

Weirdly, the fastest drag car in India also happens to be a Bzen and not a Zonda. Wonder why?

Quote:
"Total decimation I say, mind it.."
Haha! If you call that total decimation, what would you call a Zonda turbo, running 18psi boost? I have driven that car (redlining first 3 gears), nearly even bought it. Trust me, a stock Zonda is NOTHING if you have the guts to drive that car.

Techno, why would anyone convert a mpfi engine to carb to begin with? I think that is what Zeesh has done? I would never advocate converting a carb'd engine to an mpfi unless you have a good tuner at hand. My suggestion would be, buy a complete engine with the gearbox, ECU, wiring the works. All you must do, is plonk it in and get a better clutch. Thats all.

Last edited by mclaren1885 : 21st August 2009 at 14:35.
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Old 21st August 2009, 14:38   #48
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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
You have obviously driven some badly built E/B zens . Shrey, you need to get out of that bubble that "Honda" is everything and learn to appreciate other stuff as well.

Well i would agree with you on that, i have never driven a e/b zen but had a chance of sitting in a ezen next to a maniac, i remeber saying hanuman chalisa even after i was out of the car .

Anyways i belive most of the debates of one being beter than the other is hear-say, There are not many people who have actually been there and done that. The once who have done that dont debate, they just keep quite
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Old 21st August 2009, 15:02   #49
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Originally Posted by pramodkumar View Post
The once who have done that dont debate, they just keep quite
Not necessarily. There are plenty of people putting out mis-guided, biased, totally opinionated views about modded cars these days. Its time the commoners aren't sucked in by such antics and are made aware of the true picture.

Most people with modded cars, never post their dark sides. Thus many people get sucked into this (only reading the positive side of modding), only to find out the picture isn't as rosy as it was painted out to be.

I agree a OHC Vtec is a very quick car. But it doesn't handle half as good as a lancer or a fiesta (ikon & baleno are way better but surely not in the same league as the lancer). Those who say it does, have obviously never driven the other cars. Similarly, people think Cedia is a great handler, honestly it is not even half as close to the Lancer which makes it quite disappointing. But no one will believe it until a Narain Karthikeyan comes and says Cedia is a big let down.

People who are looking for street builds, are advised to buy Vtec's/cars with Vtec engines. Upside is, they are brilliant on highways when you are redlining every gear, but in cities they have no torque. Anyone says they do, haven't driven a torquey car (cedia, lancer, baleno, ikon, fiesta) before in their lives. FIrst thumb rule for a street build is practicality. No high compression, no wild cams, no ITB's, no stage 2 clutches, no lightened flywheels etc. If you want all this, dont expect to call it a street build.

It would be sad to see people getting sucked into this dark side called modding cars without knowing the complete picture. Before a majority lose their trust in the capability of Indian tuners, something has to be done about it. The first step is, to be an educated customer. This in itself goes a long way to prevent hardships down the line.

Last edited by mclaren1885 : 21st August 2009 at 15:08.
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Old 21st August 2009, 15:22   #50
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@MCL U said it all in the most graceful and inoffencive way. Its absolutly true that a lot of boys hear somthing and start debating on it, with out even knowing if they themselves are right, i respect your knowledge, and i know what you mean about people getting sucked out in the modding culture, i have not known any one appart form you modding a baleno evenbefore the warranty is over, so anything coming out of your mouth form me is as good as coming out of the horses mouth. I have driven a vtec and currently own a lancer, my decession was not based only on the huge price difference between the two in the used market. But also the the package it comes with. my car delivers a decent 13 with 100% AC the best vtec's deliver 13-15 with AC. People usually say lancers are very difficult to maintain, how many of them have actually owned one, or lets say driven one. I like the way couple of people spread genuine knowledge, feasibily of an option etc. but the moment someone says mods on a car its always those colourful wires, sparkplugs and airfilters that comes to every ones mind. The esteem is a fast car, a zen with its weight advantage with an esteem engine is surely a pocket rocket, its the most easy and reliable mod that one can think of.

Pramod
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Old 21st August 2009, 16:02   #51
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Cmon guys, Honda vs Suzuki used to be fun some 4-5 years ago (ah those were the days , LOL)

Anything and everything on this topic has been discussed and argued about in the past.

Besides, a stock engined B-Zen, will def be quicker than a stock engined OHC. No surprise there. And with the weight advantage, you can get great performance at a much lesser cost.

And its also true that stock vtec engines are not very peppy at low revvs since they are tuned for economy. This has been mentioned on the forum, in so many threads.

So why fight over things that are already known?

Shan2nu
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Old 21st August 2009, 16:36   #52
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Guys my esteem engine is an mpfi 16v engine originally 07 model manufactured, when i put it in my zen i jus didnt install the ecm, injectors setup, which i am thinking of now, so dont think that would be a problem at all cause thats what the engine was meant for in the 1st place.

But i am concerned for the car, what i was told is that if u convert a car which was originally carb to mpfi there can be issues, hence m worried, if mine was an mpfi zen originally i would never worry at all..
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Old 21st August 2009, 16:38   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
This is the first time I am hearing that a carb engine is more reliable than an mpfi one. Zeeshan, whoever is feeding you such news is absolutely taking you for a ride. Just get a mpfi baleno/esteem engine like Akshay said. You will have lot less headaches.


Not if done right. E-zen, B-zen, Zonda's are the best bang for the buck for a fast car. No S10, GTX, OHC Vtec, Baleno, Esteem can come close to a bigger engine in a zen (in terms of acceleration). Those who think it isn't worth just haven't driven a fast zen. Thats all.
Agreed I have never driven a e-zen.

But the complication, cost , time factor associated is huge.
Its kind of risk , and you cant guarantee the built would be completed within Rs. XX.

I was talking from a practical point of view, the thread starter has budget cap of 50 k , am not sure 50 k is enough for a Zen to bash up , Palio GtX , OHC ..etc etc.
Am not throwing in Palio 1.6 because i own one and want to prove a point.
But if the ultimate aim is cheap thrill.. 1.6 GTX is the best bet i would still stick my neck out and stand by it.

More over driving fast in not about X BHP/ Ton !
Theres lot more to it like tyres, brakes , body balance, etc etc.am sure which you know mare than I do !

Last edited by karizma_devil : 21st August 2009 at 16:40.
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Old 21st August 2009, 16:53   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssjr0498 View Post


All said and done, zeesh, what Rahul says is true, get a swap done on the zen, if done correctly its like a pocket rocket amongst the cars..

Secondly, like he said, whosoever said that a carb engine is more reliable than an mpfi one is probably taking you for a ride..

All the best with your mods.

Cheers
Shrey
I already have the esteem engine in my car, hav jus reopened it to rebore and enlarge piston size, the myth about carb being more relaible over mpfi was 1 which was heard long back, besides m worried that the ecm should not konk off in the middle of the road as it will be a used one, god knows what its gone through, besides you cant overhaul it and a new one is very exp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
You have obviously driven some badly built E/B zens .

Let us just consider stock engines here & do the math, a stock Vtec puts out around 107bhp/tonne?

A stock bzen puts out 122bhp/tonne. A ezen puts out 113 bhp/tonne. Unless you are trying to tell me a 107bhp/tonne car could be more exciting than a 113/122 bhp/tonne car. Not everyone likes to open their engines and up compression, mod them etc etc. Not everyone can take the risks you and me did. Also lets look at practicality here, not out right drag builds.

Shrey, you need to get out of that bubble that "Honda" is everything and learn to appreciate other stuff as well. Besides OHC is one of the worst handling, powerful cars one can get their hands on. Remember watching the Hyd drag where the B-zen took out the Zonda?

What most people don't realize is that a Zonda is not practical for city use. You have absolutely no torque lower down and the engine comes alive only when the Vtec kicks in. Ordinary people who don't go to drags need torque while driving in town. That is where the e/b/twin cams have an advantage.

Weirdly, the fastest drag car in India also happens to be a Bzen and not a Zonda. Wonder why?

Haha! If you call that total decimation, what would you call a Zonda turbo, running 18psi boost? I have driven that car (redlining first 3 gears), nearly even bought it. Trust me, a stock Zonda is NOTHING if you have the guts to drive that car.

Techno, why would anyone convert a mpfi engine to carb to begin with? I think that is what Zeesh has done? I would never advocate converting a carb'd engine to an mpfi unless you have a good tuner at hand. My suggestion would be, buy a complete engine with the gearbox, ECU, wiring the works. All you must do, is plonk it in and get a better clutch. Thats all.
yup thats what i have done, and just to let you guys know when i had rebuild my engine earlier just after the swap and after the run in i had dragged with a stock ohc and trust me we were neck to neck always, and yeah that driver was a pretty good one.
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Old 21st August 2009, 17:08   #55
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Hmmm...

Looks like you guys are right... mmm but then!!

What do you have to say for this!! (Plz look at the 1600cc indian open category, Since you mentioned that the fastest car is a Bzen and not a honda. I took the Jan results of the hyd drag cuz Ashu runs a B zen, so it will be easy for you to compare as I think some of the REAL fast cars did not go to hyd this time round )




from what I can see, all of them are honda engines!!

Looks like you guys havent driven a "well built honda" .


Cheers
Shrey

PS: some more answers and questions in bold
Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
You have obviously driven some badly built E/B zens .

Let us just consider stock engines here & do the math, a stock Vtec puts out around 107bhp/tonne?

A stock bzen puts out 122bhp/tonne. A ezen puts out 113 bhp/tonne. Unless you are trying to tell me a 107bhp/tonne car could be more exciting than a 113/122 bhp/tonne car. Not everyone likes to open their engines and up compression, mod them etc etc. Not everyone can take the risks you and me did. Also lets look at practicality here, not out right drag builds.

Shrey, you need to get out of that bubble that "Honda" is everything and learn to appreciate other stuff as well. Besides OHC is one of the worst handling, powerful cars one can get their hands on. Remember watching the Hyd drag where the B-zen took out the Zonda? // when? jan or the last one?//

What most people don't realize is that a Zonda is not practical for city use. You have absolutely no torque lower down and the engine comes alive only when the Vtec kicks in. Ordinary people who don't go to drags need torque while driving in town. That is where the e/b/twin cams have an advantage.

Weirdly, the fastest drag car in India also happens to be a Bzen and not a Zonda. Wonder why? // which car are you reffering too?//

Haha! If you call that total decimation, what would you call a Zonda turbo, running 18psi boost? I have driven that car (redlining first 3 gears), nearly even bought it. Trust me, a stock Zonda is NOTHING if you have the guts to drive that car.

// we were talking about NA b/e/twin cam zens and vtec's. From where did a turbo come into picture, so much for b/e zen's, then why wasn't this contraption done on a suzi engine. Why use a honda block//

Techno, why would anyone convert a mpfi engine to carb to begin with? I think that is what Zeesh has done? I would never advocate converting a carb'd engine to an mpfi unless you have a good tuner at hand. My suggestion would be, buy a complete engine with the gearbox, ECU, wiring the works. All you must do, is plonk it in and get a better clutch. Thats all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pramodkumar View Post
Well i would agree with you on that, i have never driven a e/b zen but had a chance of sitting in a ezen next to a maniac, i remeber saying hanuman chalisa even after i was out of the car .

Anyways i belive most of the debates of one being beter than the other is hear-say, There are not many people who have actually been there and done that. The once who have done that dont debate, they just keep quite
Quote:
Originally Posted by pramodkumar View Post
@MCL U said it all in the most graceful and inoffencive way. Its absolutly true that a lot of boys hear somthing and start debating on it, with out even knowing if they themselves are right, i respect your knowledge, and i know what you mean about people getting sucked out in the modding culture, i have not known any one appart form you modding a baleno evenbefore the warranty is over, so anything coming out of your mouth form me is as good as coming out of the horses mouth. I have driven a vtec and currently own a lancer, my decession was not based only on the huge price difference between the two in the used market. But also the the package it comes with. my car delivers a decent 13 with 100% AC the best vtec's deliver 13-15 with AC. People usually say lancers are very difficult to maintain, how many of them have actually owned one, or lets say driven one. I like the way couple of people spread genuine knowledge, feasibily of an option etc. but the moment someone says mods on a car its always those colourful wires, sparkplugs and airfilters that comes to every ones mind. The esteem is a fast car, a zen with its weight advantage with an esteem engine is surely a pocket rocket, its the most easy and reliable mod that one can think of.

Pramod

Last edited by ssjr0498 : 21st August 2009 at 17:23.
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Old 21st August 2009, 17:31   #56
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I am beginner when it comes to mods and powers generated by the engine.

I want to know how much percentage of the power generated by the car is transferred to the wheels, 90-95%, won't it vary from car to car?
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Old 21st August 2009, 17:37   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssjr0498 View Post
Hmmm...

Looks like you guys havent driven a "well built honda" .

Cheers
Shrey

PS: some more answers and questions in bold

I have driven a regular zen, and had been driven by a maniac in a Ezen, the question here is you have a zen and 50k to modify it. Do you think zonda is a possibility here. i have never said honda engines are not that good as compared to suzuki engines, my only comparison was with a lancer and a vtec. secondly let me actually point out something from your own fact. having a powerful car alone is not a recipe to be a winner, driving skills are more important than a powerful car. in a quater mile drag any experianced racer can beat a noob like me in my lancer vs a NA zen. Just look at the circled time in the pic, same driver different times.


Zen prep for hi-performance street driving-untitled.jpg <br />
BTW @zee try hunting more i am sure you can find these components from a totalled car. and i dont feel reliability would be much of a concern if done from a competent workshop you can contact karan shah from KS motorsport.<br /> <br />
Pramod</div>   <div style=

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Old 21st August 2009, 19:08   #58
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Err.. Pardon me guys.

Thread title is "Zen prep for hi-performance street driving"
So, all this E/B/S-Zen's and Zonda's are street legal ??

I think there will be too many legal complications and red tape involved to get it stamped "street legal".
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Old 21st August 2009, 21:07   #59
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Hi,
my responses in bold

Quote:
Originally Posted by pramodkumar View Post
I have driven a regular zen, and had been driven by a maniac in a Ezen, the question here is you have a zen and 50k to modify it. Do you think zonda is a possibility here.
//Well no one mentioned 50K in the first place, anywaycheck my ad in the classifieds, a zonda in 50 is possible.. //
I have never said honda engines are not that good as compared to suzuki engines, my only comparison was with a lancer and a vtec.
//We were talking about suzi's and honda's, now where did a mitsu come in from?//
secondly let me actually point out something from your own fact. having a powerful car alone is not a recipe to be a winner, driving skills are more important than a powerful car. in a quater mile drag any experianced racer can beat a noob like me in my lancer vs a NA zen. Just look at the circled time in the pic, same driver different times.

// Thanks for the headsup! didn't know that, but save the favour and do one thing, take your car and time it for 5 consequtive runs and then tell us the times, let see if you can do identical times. Anyway, what is the difference there did you see! its 0.066 of a second. Big difference naa!! But what were you trying to say here, that the drivers in the suzi's were newbies, I dont think so! Some of those names are well heard off in the drag circuit and have been in the scene for quite a while now. //


Attachment 178389

BTW @zee try hunting more i am sure you can find these components from a totalled car. and i dont feel reliability would be much of a concern if done from a competent workshop you can contact karan shah from KS motorsport.

Pramod
Some people say, I cant see beyond a honda, well , I very well can! But some people will go all the way to prove that a apple is not an apple, it's a orange. I am not one of those who goes by feel and drive cars that are elusive and nocturnal.. (cuz some crazy and very powerfull cars are driven and tested by ppl here, but never turn up at any of the events, they clean sweap the streets in the midst of the dark night when no one can see it!!. So I cant really say anything about that) I go by numbers and talk only about things that I have done and/or seen.


So many of us have attended so many drag meets, show me one event when a suzi has outdone a honda, racing in the same category.

This for some of us fellow members, for the upteenth time, honda made the Vtec engines with a objective in mind, economy+power hence the vtec having a less lower end torque. If you want torque then take the std 1.5 non vtec and see, you will be satisfied.

I am out of here.

Sorry for going grossly OT.

Cheers
Shrey

Last edited by ssjr0498 : 21st August 2009 at 21:10.
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Old 21st August 2009, 22:57   #60
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Originally Posted by ssjr0498 View Post
So many of us have attended so many drag meets, show me
Shreyans, while you're a nice fellow, I must correct you.

The fastest Indian car is a 1600 Baleno-engined Zen built by Raj Hingorani, and owned and driven by Ashuthosh Shetty. At Torque Nite, it clocked a 12.5 second runtime, not only annihilating Hondas of all kinds, but a Nissan GT-R as well.
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