Tuning Box versus Remaps (Diesel tuning)

[v1p3r]

Right. Aren't you the guy that said Elantras run 7 psi stock, and boost controllers inject a bit of extra fuel? Lol.

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

There is also the OM651, which is similar in dimensions, and puts out a maximum of 204 bhp. The only visible difference is that the latter has twin turbos. I'm not sure which one the new Indian C has, since I haven't been under the hood yet.

OM651 has just started production. There are different variants and the twin turbos is only on the 204 bhp variant. Base around 170. Indian C has the 170 bhp version of the 611. I think they will eventually replace all 611 applications with OM651 and transfer the tooling to Force Motors.

[bikefreak]

Slightly OT but I needed some info as I was looking to buy a re-mapped 1.8 turbo . . . .

- How much does the bhp increase from the stock 150 after a stage I remap ?
- How much (approx) does the stage I remap cost totally (along with other required mods like a typhoon intake) ?
- Where does one do these stage I remaps in Mumbai ?
- Does it affect the engine life ? increase maintenance costs ?
- I was told the remapped car still gives around 8kmph in the city and 11 on highways. Is this possible in a car claimed to have 220 bhp even if it maintained very well ?
- Any specific points to be looked at when examining a stage I remapped 1.8 turbo ?
- If it is so much fun and not too costly, why does Skoda not come out with an official variant . . . the "stage I vrs" ?!
- Last but not the least . . . how much should such a stage I remapped 2005 1.8 rider that has done around 60k kms cost ?!

Thanking you all in anticipation of the answers

[Ardy]

Originally Posted by bikefreak

Slightly OT but I needed some info as I was looking to buy a re-mapped 1.8 turbo . . . .

- How much does the bhp increase from the stock 150 after a stage I remap ?

Stage 1 ECU remap increases BHP by 50 taking vRS to 200 BHP.

- How much (approx) does the stage I remap cost totally (along with other required mods like a typhoon intake) ?

Petes charges around 38K for Stage I remap taking the BHP to 200. Along with this they recommend Diverter Valve and Filters which will cost you around 16-17K.

- Where does one do these stage I remaps in Mumbai ?

Contact www.petes.in

- Does it affect the engine life ? increase maintenance costs ?

Can't comment as I am also contemplating the mods.

- I was told the remapped car still gives around 8kmph in the city and 11 on highways. Is this possible in a car claimed to have 220 bhp even if it maintained very well ?

As far as I know, most of the additional power is going to come at higher RPMs and so driving normally would not hamper much of FE figures.

- Any specific points to be looked at when examining a stage I remapped 1.8 turbo ?

Nothing really. The electronics should not have any faults.

- If it is so much fun and not too costly, why does Skoda not come out with an official variant . . . the "stage I vrs" ?!

Well, 2001-2005 vRS in Europe was sold as 200 BHP stock car. In India, the car was detuned for some reasons. I believe one of the reasons was FE.

- Last but not the least . . . how much should such a stage I remapped 2005 1.8 rider that has done around 60k kms cost ?!

It should cost the same irrespective of the age of the car and mileage it has clocked.

Thanking you all in anticipation of the answers

Responses inline in Italics and Underlined.

[v1p3r]

Stage 1 remap is to 180 bhp, not 200. And the car should cost you around 6 lakhs.

[Invinsible]

Originally Posted by bikefreak

Slightly OT but I needed some info as I was looking to buy a re-mapped 1.8 turbo . . . .

- How much does the bhp increase from the stock 150 after a stage I remap ?
You can expect it upto 190bhp after stage 1 along with the change in filter.

- How much (approx) does the stage I remap cost totally (along with other required mods like a typhoon intake) ?
around 35-40K for the remap, addtitional 10k or so for the typhoon kit.

- Where does one do these stage I remaps in Mumbai ?
It's done at four season's, tardeo they deal with Pete's products, who does the custom code remap, UK.

- Does it affect the engine life ? increase maintenance costs ?
It depends how good you take care of it. With additional torque and bhp there would be less stress on in gear acceleration but the more you keep redlining it you would even any normal engine's life span being affected. No maintenance costs accept that your fuel cost would go slightly higher as you wouldn't be able to resist yourself from flooring the pedal.

- I was told the remapped car still gives around 8kmph in the city and 11 on highways. Is this possible in a car claimed to have 220 bhp even if it maintained very well ?
Yes, with added torque you may be downshifting less as you have additional boost in torque. Also, you would be flooring the pedal way less than you would with a stock engine. This way your drivability would be improved. But, as I said if you keep flooring the pedal you mileage go down towards south.

- Any specific points to be looked at when examining a stage I remapped 1.8 turbo ?
The engine should be in a healthy state, especially the turbo. Many RS engines are abused and the one that gets abused more is the turbo.

- If it is so much fun and not too costly, why does Skoda not come out with an official variant . . . the "stage I vrs" ?!
That's against the company law's which are governed by restricted ARAI rules.

- Last but not the least . . . how much should such a stage I remapped 2005 1.8 rider that has done around 60k kms cost ?!
I wouldn't give more than 5.5Lakhs for that.

Thanking you all in anticipation of the answers

You will find many sites here which have discussed on various upgrade options for the RS. It might help you if you go through them.

Also, have a read at this interesting article, I tell this to everyone thinking of upgrading their 1.8tpi engine. Turbo Information for the VW GTI 1.8T Turbo Engine - swankmonkey.com

[Ravveendrra]

Hi,

Thanks each one of you in this thread, you have given me great information, it was a bit of an overload and it took me a while to digest all the fundas that you guys seem so familiar with.

I was looking to buy a Palio 1.6, so I put off the work on the Laura. The 1.6 thing is not working out so I decided to work on the Laura.

I decided to go with the Pete's tuning box rather than a re-map for the following very simple reasons.

1. I understand that the re-map has to be done perfectly by a very competent person. I am not sure I will be able to get it done in Hyderabad. The Pete's box, on the other hand is available off the shelf.

2. Re-remapping, or un-remapping if you will, is well nigh impossible. On the other hand a Pete's box can be disconnected by me, making the car stock again!

3. GTO and my regular independant mechanic could not stress enough on the inadvisability of fiddling with the Skoda's electricals and electronics. (That includes no Lightforce bar and lights.)

I popped into the dealer for Pete's in Hyd and placed an order for the tuning box. It costs Rs.31,200/- and should be here in two days.

Now I have to follow up with Skoda about the spoiler.

Thanks again guys and I promise to keep you posted.

Cheers,

[Ardy]

Originally Posted by Ravveendrra

Hi,

Thanks each one of you in this thread, you have given me great information, it was a bit of an overload and it took me a while to digest all the fundas that you guys seem so familiar with.

I was looking to buy a Palio 1.6, so I put off the work on the Laura. The 1.6 thing is not working out so I decided to work on the Laura.

I decided to go with the Pete's tuning box rather than a re-map for the following very simple reasons.

1. I understand that the re-map has to be done perfectly by a very competent person. I am not sure I will be able to get it done in Hyderabad. The Pete's box, on the other hand is available off the shelf.

2. Re-remapping, or un-remapping if you will, is well nigh impossible. On the other hand a Pete's box can be disconnected by me, making the car stock again!

3. GTO and my regular independant mechanic could not stress enough on the inadvisability of fiddling with the Skoda's electricals and electronics. (That includes no Lightforce bar and lights.)

I popped into the dealer for Pete's in Hyd and placed an order for the tuning box. It costs Rs.31,200/- and should be here in two days.

Now I have to follow up with Skoda about the spoiler.

Thanks again guys and I promise to keep you posted.

Cheers,

Great to hear that you are spicing up your Laura ... Tuning Box is a good option if you want to increase the bottom end performance. I have the tuning box on my Octavia and I find the difference in the 1st and 2nd gears mostly making life a little easier in city driving conditions. Please note that the top speeds would not change.

Do not forget to replace your air filters with Green Cotton. They would reduce the level of smoke.

With respect to the remapping, Petes would have been glad to come over to Hyderabad to remap your Laura. I intend to speak to Peter today to discuss the remapping of my vRS that I want to take up in early April. If you want to talk to Peter and take a look at Remap Vs. Tuning Box, PM me and I shall give you his number.

[ACM]

GTO just found your below pasted post. It's very detailed and explains a lot of what i was looking for, yet would like to know your take on my scene below:

Originally Posted by GTO

Fat chance! Allow me to explain why:

1.In the most basic explanation, a tuning box simply leads to more fuel being injected into the diesel engine. The scope of a remap is much wider : more diesel, higher turbo boost, timing etc.

2.A remap requires a high level of expertise in installation & local support. Something I don’t believe Indian infrastructure is capable of yet, atleast in providing a consistent level of service on each remap sold across the country. Compare that to a powerbox which is tested by its manufacturer and sealed until delivery, and even post-installation. No fiddling around.

3.A powerbox can take me from 141 BHP to 170 BHP (C220). Is that enough? Remember, a powerbox has adjustable settings for more extreme usage too. A remap will give me probably an additional 10 – 15 more horses. However, the more the power, the more the stress on a diesel engine. Remember, if it were so simple, a manufacturer would sell the C220 in a higher state of tune from day one itself (don't bring up the new C, among other things it has an upgraded cooling system). However, the cars existing components & state of tune are designed to handle the power and keep the engine from harm, even in an extreme condition such as climbing a long ghat on a really hot sunny day with a full load of passengers. In a remapped C220 with 190 horses on tap, you can gauge the effect of 40% more horsepower on transmission / cooling etc. components in such conditions. There is a reason why I haven’t boxed or mapped my car yet. If & when I do, it will be a powerbox running in setting 1 as the risk exposure is FAR lower. European cars aren't cheap to maintain, all hell breaks loose when they need repairs!

4.Euros have complex electronics from the factory itself. While a powerbox only leads to altered signals, a remap modifies the ECUs many settings & parameters.....a complex modification by any benchmark. I have yet to see one SINGLE powerboxed car with a problematic install (being how simple it is!). However, post-remap problematic cars are too many to count. Starting with Monkeys RS and his check engine light which wouldn’t go for almost a year!

5.Powerbox = You can go back to stock whenever you want. What is the procedure for getting back to standard ECU tune after a remap?

6.When it’s time to change the car, you could sell the tuning box and the car separately. A tuning box is not a wear & tear item. It will do on day 1000 the exact same thing that it did on day 1. You will understand that a remap can’t exactly be sold separately on a floppy disk.

7.If something goes wrong with the powerbox, you can remove the box on the spot. Its a simple DIY. Good luck with your remapped car showing a hiccup / check engine light when you are with your family in the middle of nowhere.

8.There have been times when a dealer will simply reset your ECU at the time of some major work or a manufacturers “silent install of a new ECU tune”. Translated = your ECU is back to stock. What is the cost of a re-remaping (there, I just invented a new term)?

9.Warranty claims : X5india hasn’t made a warranty claim on his engine. Period. If & when he does, be assured that BMW will thoroughly study his engine and know that it’s been remapped in a matter of minutes. It is NOT difficult to locate a remap when you want to. Remaps either overwrite manufacturer data or reside on an empty part of the chip. Manufacturers have VERY strict procedures before clearing warranty claims. And BMW does know their own car a little better than any aftermarket supplier would.

In consideration of the above-mentioned points, a powerbox is far better suited to someone who is looking at simpler mods / lesser risk for more power. However, if you are getting a bigger turbo, better intercooler, advanced fueling system and going for full-blown mods, then a remap is the way to go as it will consider all parameters and is totally customisable.

Originally Posted by sameel

lets be frank here!! REMAP is Trouble. I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT! ITS IN MY JOB TO FLASH AND RE-FLASH ECUs daily and test whether the interations done is working properly or not.

when any of the meets come up i will be glad to take a session on these so called modifications! there are good stuff and bad stuff. safe remaps also are there.

i am in a position to remap any vehicle provided i have its cable harness and HEX file. and a standard DCM!! but that will mean i have to use BOSCH LAB Equipments which i shouldnt and wont!

do ask for any clarifications. i will try to clear them . not in a position to start a seperate thread. am pretty lazy

Sameel what's your take on my scene mentioned below? have read your posts?

Originally Posted by ACM

Yep Four Seasons no longer does Pete. (Custom code) But they do offer MTM remap for Rs. 44,000, K&K filters, extra, They also provide a sprintbooster for Rs. 18,000.

Felt the costs were too high.

Ravveenddra What design spoiler have you choosen? (there is a design with a flat srip that sits right on the boot edge and sticks to it end to end, and there is another design which has a contact only at the two ends with visible 3inches of space between the spoiler and the boot) and how much did you order the same from Skoda. Which dealer?

GTO/ Others do you feel this way regarding Remaps vs tuning box for Laura, (tuining box being prefered), I could not locate your post that mentions this? JUST FOUND THAT PERTICULAR POST AS PASTED ABOVE. I was planning for a Remap from "Kiirus" this weekend(145bhp). Cost about 22K compared to other options. Seems to be a good deal. Have searched for them on TBHP forum but there is no feedback, (neither negative or positive). They REMOVE the ECU and reprogram it.

Petes team was very fast to respond by phone, email and sms but quoted: Rs. 39,000 in an email to me last september through four seaons, which now quotes 44,000 for MTM, while the new pete dealer in mumbai Neville@Comart quoted 42,000. No discounts from either. Felt these were a bit high, for a situation were we do not actually get any hardware.



Any updates on your box performance, Ravv?

In the price range for me the options seem to be Kiirus 22K remap vs Pete 31.2K tuning box. MTM drove me away on pricing, Kiirus offer ends on March 31st. Am seriously not able to decide on either. Also ,am quite surprised to see no better pricing even in such a market situation.

Any other tuners that I should consider?

HELP needed.

[GTO]

Ravveendrra : Great to hear about your positive initial impressions.

@ ACM : I'd go for a petes box on the Laura. Tried & tested.

[ACM]

Thanks GTO for the feedback, have one more question for you & Ravveenddra and others who have either remaped their Skoda Laura or

Post Remap / Tuning box, does one need to use only Turbojet / Hi-Speed diesel or ExtraMile Diesel?

Currently for the Skodas of years 2006-2007 Skoda recommends only normal Diesel and strictkly instructs NOT to use Premium diesel.

While the Tuner whom I have been in touch with insists that post tuning the car would be able to take Premium Diesel and I should preferably use only Premium Diesel. Though normal diesel would not be a problem, performance would be noticed mainly with premium diesel.

Or rather would using premium diesel cause any problems?

Skoda Lauras for Year 2008 onwards are recommended to use Premium diesel - What changes would they have done?

The tuner mentioned that earlier the map would be detuned to work only with normal diesel and if premium were use it would result in unburnt diesel and increased heat and this is taken care of when one gets the car tuned and hence post tuning the car has the capacity to burn premium diesel.

Is this a valid argument?

[Ravveendrra]

Originally Posted by ACM

Thanks GTO for the feedback, have one more question for you & Ravveenddra and others who have either remaped their Skoda Laura or

Post Remap / Tuning box, does one need to use only Turbojet / Hi-Speed diesel or ExtraMile Diesel?
the car has the capacity to burn premium diesel.
Is this a valid argument?

From the various threads here on premium fuel and fuel quality, I understand that 'premium' Diesel oils in India are the same as regular Diesel with certain additives added to make it 'flow' better and clean the internals. Therefore, the fuel per-se remains the same, it only has 'detergents' and 'flow improvers' added.

Opel insisted that additives needed to be added. Skoda used to advise that additives/fuel premixed with additives not be used as it fouls the pumps and other components in the fuel system.. (There is a post somewhere about Mobil 2T oil fouling the system). The Laura has a complicated fuel injection system with 4 fuel pumps. I therefore would think twice before putting any thing into my fuel tank. I would of course prefer to put in Diesel oil with better calorific value if it were available, unfortunately the additives in 'premium' Diesel oils do not add to the calorific value. There are also several posts about how member's cars perform better & give better FE with regular fuel. I therefore will stick to the plain vanilla Diesel without any additives.

Cheers,

[GTO]

Originally Posted by ACM

Post Remap / Tuning box, does one need to use only Turbojet / Hi-Speed diesel or ExtraMile Diesel?

Unlike some premium petrols, where the octane rating is higher, premium diesel is EXACTLY the same as normal diesel. The only difference is that it will have some additives (including detergents).

I have consulted with several automotive engineers, including many from the big car brands. Not a single person has recommended premium diesels to me. Pure regular diesel is the way to go. I can't stress enough on the purity part.

[maverick030581]

Originally Posted by GTO

Unlike some premium petrols, where the octane rating is higher, premium diesel is EXACTLY the same as normal diesel. The only difference is that it will have some additives (including detergents).

I have consulted with several automotive engineers, including many from the big car brands. Not a single person has recommended premium diesels to me. Pure regular diesel is the way to go. I can't stress enough on the purity part.

+1 to that. I have recently installed the Pete's box plus Green filter on my Elantra and Peter himself said there is no need for premium diesel, the car is running perfectly on the regular brew.In fact, even when stock, everyone I consulted (including other Elantra owners, the previous owner of my Elantra as well as the Hyundai guys) said its best to stick to normal diesel.
The purity part is very essential, stick only to reliable pumps. Found this out the hard way when I had to refuel at the foodcourt pump on the Mumbai-Pune expressway, the car ran out of breath at 160 kph, the CEL came on and stayed on till I got it rectified by a hi-scan.

[Invinsible]

As I mentioned earlier I have been using the remap on my fabia for last 18000kms now. Car has done 23000kms. During my second service I had made a complain of low pick up and mileage. This mainly happened coz of DPF(Diesel partical filter), EGR valve, and intake manifold choked due to carbon/soot.
Once they cleaned it during 2nd service with chemical cleaning, the pick up has improved tremendously. Much better than day one I had got the remap one. Mileage has gone high too by 15% or so.
The carbon accumulation is common with diesel cars. More so it happens often due to unburnt fuel and when you can see your car smoking under heavy acceleration. This is nothing but the unburnt fuel. With tuning box is some cars there is heavy smoke that is noticed initially. This is coz tuning box mainly changes fuel mapping to generate more power. Excessive smoke will lead to early soot/carbon.
My ECM has been diagnosed thoroughly during this process to check for errors. Luckily it has not been detected till now.
Compared to Remap a tuning box is always safer option but than everything has it's negative. Just like with remap there are chances of it being detected, tuning box there are chances of seeing excessive smoke.
There are advantages and disadvantages of whether it's remap or tuning box.
Tuning box being safer option, no doubt a remap would give better drive ability with changes to turbo boose as well. It all depends on what you looking for.

Here is a link that talks all about the VW diesel engine, their characteristics, modification, precaution and all.
The below link explains the carbon accumulation and care to be taken.
Cleaning the intake manifold of carbon build up Difficulty

I have tried both Diesel and hispeed diesel and have not noticed any change in performance. Hi speed diesel uses additives which are not healthy for PD engines. The injectors may become prone to stickiness and may be in longer run damage the fuel pump or so. I noticed more smoke coming out when used with hi speed diesel.