Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Modifications & Accessories


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 26th February 2009, 01:51   #1
Senior - BHPian
 
Ravveendrra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 1,391
Thanked: 405 Times
Default Tuning Box versus Remaps (Diesel tuning)

I have a 2 year old Laura L & K.

I wanted to do something to improve its power & FE. I am not for FFEs or Ram Air Filters.

My searches led me to re-mapping and Pete's tuning box. I am not a drag racer and 0-100 times are not that important. But I would like a little more lower end and mid-range grunt for use on the highways and in-city. At the same time I am not willing to forgo FE and an increase in FE would be welcome.

My questions are:

(1) Is it required?

(2) Should I put in a box or get the engine re-mapped?

(3) Can the re-mapping (if that is the recommended course of action) be undone?

(4) Will it effect the reliability and longevity of the car?

(5) How much will it cost?

Besides the engine, I also wanted to know if bi-xenons are available for the Laura. (The stock headlamps have xenons only for the low beam, the hi-beam being traditional lamps).

I also want to know which are good pencil beam auxillary lights, (for really long range lighting) to fit onto the Laura. Of course, if I got bi-xenons, there might be no need for these.

I have already identified the bootlip spoiler (RSC), not the 'RS for Octavia-II' that Autopsyche has fitted, but a smaller one that is like a foil extending out from the top of the boot lid. The local dealer has promsied to source it for me. (I hope he delivers!)

Thanks in advance guys.

Cheers,
Ravveendrra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 11:45   #2
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,729
Thanked: 89,228 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravveendrra View Post
(1) Is it required?

(2) Should I put in a box or get the engine re-mapped?
The Pete's box can do wonders to a diesel car; increased performance is felt from the low to high rpm range. I'd choose the box over a remap, especially for premium cars, since its simpler, plug & play and can be removed within minutes (useful for when the car is going in for a service etc.). Plus, you could always sell it at a later stage. Germans have complex electronics to start with; I'd never want to mess with them.

Quote:
(4) Will it effect the reliability and longevity of the car?
Related discussion (Petes box - Disadvantages?).

Quote:
(5) How much will it cost?
IIRC, his boxes sell for anywhere between 18K - 30K, dependant on car.

Quote:
Besides the engine, I also wanted to know if bi-xenons are available for the Laura. (The stock headlamps have xenons only for the low beam, the hi-beam being traditional lamps).
Word of advice : Don't mess with the Lauras electronics.
GTO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 12:21   #3
Senior - BHPian
 
Ravveendrra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 1,391
Thanked: 405 Times
Default Thanks GTO

Thanks a tonne GTO, you summed it up rather well. All the old threads kinda confused me with their diverse viewpoints and sometimes contradictory advice.

I think I will take your advice and go in for a tuning box and leave the rest of the car alone.

Cheers and thanks again,
Ravveendrra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 12:37   #4
BHPian
 
Ardy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 613
Thanked: 86 Times
Default

I am planning to use a Petes tuning box on my Octavia. I have picked one up from a fellow TBHPian. Expecting to recieve it on Sunday night and hoping to install it on Monday. From the instructions, it is extremely simple to install and you can do it yourself. Will update next week on the improvements and hoping the power at the lower RPMs increase and reduce the initial turbo lag.

Keeping my fingures crossed to get VFM out of the installation.
Ardy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 12:46   #5
Senior - BHPian
 
Invinsible's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bombay
Posts: 1,257
Thanked: 60 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardy View Post
I am planning to use a Petes tuning box on my Octavia. I have picked one up from a fellow TBHPian. Expecting to recieve it on Sunday night and hoping to install it on Monday. From the instructions, it is extremely simple to install and you can do it yourself. Will update next week on the improvements and hoping the power at the lower RPMs increase and reduce the initial turbo lag.

Keeping my fingures crossed to get VFM out of the installation.
How about the filter ? Do make sure you change you filter as well or you wouldn't be surprised it would be smoking like a truck which is nothing but unburnt fuel and to burn that efficiently you would need to replace your filter, better off with green replacement as they kinda less oily compared to the K&N and your MAF sensor will be safe with it.

All the best.
Enjoy your complete new ride.
Invinsible is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 12:47   #6
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Sahil's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 5,202
Thanked: 2,094 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The Pete's box can do wonders to a diesel car; increased performance is felt from the low to high rpm range. I'd choose the box over a remap, especially for premium cars, since its simpler, plug & play and can be removed within minutes (useful for when the car is going in for a service etc.). Plus, you could always sell it at a later stage. Germans have complex electronics to start with; I'd never want to mess with them.

A power box might be more "convient" since you can remove it before service. But the remap delivers better results and can be regarded as "safer" too.
A remap tunes the engine/ecu, while a power box fools the engine/ecu. If a car is out of warranty, its best to go in for a remap even if not there are several remaps that go undetected by the dealership.

Our fellow Bhpian X5india has remapped his ECU from DMS and their software is undetected by BMW diagnostics.
Sahil is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 20:12   #7
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,729
Thanked: 89,228 Times
Default

Quote:
But the remap delivers better results and can be regarded as "safer" too.
Fat chance! Allow me to explain why:

1.In the most basic explanation, a tuning box simply leads to more fuel being injected into the diesel engine. The scope of a remap is much wider : more diesel, higher turbo boost, timing etc.

2.A remap requires a high level of expertise in installation & local support. Something I don’t believe Indian infrastructure is capable of yet, atleast in providing a consistent level of service on each remap sold across the country. Compare that to a powerbox which is tested by its manufacturer and sealed until delivery, and even post-installation. No fiddling around.

3.A powerbox can take me from 141 BHP to 170 BHP (C220). Is that enough? Remember, a powerbox has adjustable settings for more extreme usage too. A remap will give me probably an additional 10 – 15 more horses. However, the more the power, the more the stress on a diesel engine. Remember, if it were so simple, a manufacturer would sell the C220 in a higher state of tune from day one itself (don't bring up the new C, among other things it has an upgraded cooling system). However, the cars existing components & state of tune are designed to handle the power and keep the engine from harm, even in an extreme condition such as climbing a long ghat on a really hot sunny day with a full load of passengers. In a remapped C220 with 190 horses on tap, you can gauge the effect of 40% more horsepower on transmission / cooling etc. components in such conditions. There is a reason why I haven’t boxed or mapped my car yet. If & when I do, it will be a powerbox running in setting 1 as the risk exposure is FAR lower. European cars aren't cheap to maintain, all hell breaks loose when they need repairs!

4.Euros have complex electronics from the factory itself. While a powerbox only leads to altered signals, a remap modifies the ECUs many settings & parameters.....a complex modification by any benchmark. I have yet to see one SINGLE powerboxed car with a problematic install (being how simple it is!). However, post-remap problematic cars are too many to count. Starting with Monkeys RS and his check engine light which wouldn’t go for almost a year!

5.Powerbox = You can go back to stock whenever you want. What is the procedure for getting back to standard ECU tune after a remap?

6.When it’s time to change the car, you could sell the tuning box and the car separately. A tuning box is not a wear & tear item. It will do on day 1000 the exact same thing that it did on day 1. You will understand that a remap can’t exactly be sold separately on a floppy disk.

7.If something goes wrong with the powerbox, you can remove the box on the spot. Its a simple DIY. Good luck with your remapped car showing a hiccup / check engine light when you are with your family in the middle of nowhere.

8.There have been times when a dealer will simply reset your ECU at the time of some major work or a manufacturers “silent install of a new ECU tune”. Translated = your ECU is back to stock. What is the cost of a re-remaping (there, I just invented a new term)?

9.Warranty claims : X5india hasn’t made a warranty claim on his engine. Period. If & when he does, be assured that BMW will thoroughly study his engine and know that it’s been remapped in a matter of minutes. It is NOT difficult to locate a remap when you want to. Remaps either overwrite manufacturer data or reside on an empty part of the chip. Manufacturers have VERY strict procedures before clearing warranty claims. And BMW does know their own car a little better than any aftermarket supplier would.

In consideration of the above-mentioned points, a powerbox is far better suited to someone who is looking at simpler mods / lesser risk for more power. However, if you are getting a bigger turbo, better intercooler, advanced fueling system and going for full-blown mods, then a remap is the way to go as it will consider all parameters and is totally customisable.
GTO is offline   (11) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 20:52   #8
BHPian
 
WAGON_R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: MUMBAI
Posts: 60
Thanked: 0 Times
Default

very well highlighted GTO. indeed powerboxes can be removed easily and the car can be made stock.
mainly in India the aftermarket remapping is damn costly and a cream for any tuner. obviously they charge for what they have learnt.
but say you have just got your car remapped and suddenly your some or the other part which could not hold the extra horses falied? it will be a nightmare and the tuner wont change this in warranty for sure and nor will the company. mainly company will get privilige to rubbish all your clains henceforth even if they are not related to the ECU.
WAGON_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 21:06   #9
Awaiting Email Confirmation
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: India
Posts: 1,745
Thanked: 19 Times
Default

The box is a proven mod by now. The Remap has quite a few disadvantages as GTO has put it.
Remap on a stock engine didnt seem like VFM when compared to the tuning box. On highly modded engines,the remap is the only option.

Racedynamics is cooking up a Diesel ECU
Planning to trial one of those soon, when they become available.
That should have the advantages of both the tuning box and the remap in one system, being removable and reusable like the box and customisable like a remap.
rippergeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2009, 23:22   #10
Senior - BHPian
 
Invinsible's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bombay
Posts: 1,257
Thanked: 60 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WAGON_R View Post
very well highlighted GTO. indeed powerboxes can be removed easily and the car can be made stock.
mainly in India the aftermarket remapping is damn costly and a cream for any tuner. obviously they charge for what they have learnt.
but say you have just got your car remapped and suddenly your some or the other part which could not hold the extra horses falied? it will be a nightmare and the tuner wont change this in warranty for sure and nor will the company. mainly company will get privilige to rubbish all your clains henceforth even if they are not related to the ECU.
Well when I was in a fix between a tbox and remap I did my research spoke to one of the SA at skoda who happend to be close to a friend of mine. Gathered the info spoke to peter, did a lot of research on the net finally went ahead and got the remap done. Well I paid 33k against the 30 of the Tbox not much of a difference. No issues with the car what so ever. Overall prefer the remap anyday against the tbox.

Quote:
it will be a nightmare and the tuner wont change this in warranty for sure and nor will the company.
This could happen with the tbox as well as. As between the tbox and remap is barely about 10% difference here and there. But against which you get better drivability and improvement in torque with the remap.
Invinsible is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th February 2009, 01:25   #11
Senior - BHPian
 
v1p3r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: BLR - chasing cars...
Posts: 4,836
Thanked: 26 Times
Default

GTO, you make some very good points. However, I'd just like to clarify some things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
1.In the most basic explanation, a tuning box simply leads to more fuel being injected into the diesel engine. The scope of a remap is much wider : more diesel, higher turbo boost, timing etc.
Stage 1 remaps also do only fuelling. Also, there is no timing on diesel engines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO
A powerbox can take me from 141 BHP to 170 BHP (C220). Is that enough? Remember, a powerbox has adjustable settings for more extreme usage too. A remap will give me probably an additional 10 – 15 more horses. However, the more the power, the more the stress on a diesel engine. Remember, if it were so simple, a manufacturer would sell the C220 in a higher state of tune from day one itself (don't bring up the new C, among other things it has an upgraded cooling system). However, the cars existing components & state of tune are designed to handle the power and keep the engine from harm, even in an extreme condition such as climbing a long ghat on a really hot sunny day with a full load of passengers. In a remapped C220 with 190 horses on tap, you can gauge the effect of 40% more horsepower on transmission / cooling etc. components in such conditions. There is a reason why I haven’t boxed or mapped my car yet. If & when I do, it will be a powerbox running in setting 1 as the risk exposure is FAR lower. European cars aren't cheap to maintain, all hell breaks loose when they need repairs!
I don't know if you're aware, but the OM611 engine -- your C220 CDI -- starts at about 80 bhp in one of the MB vans, and maxes out at 143 bhp stock in the C. There are no engine or ancillary changes. Even the turbos are the same. Only the mappings are different. Also, the new C uses a totally different engine, not the OM611.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO
Euros have complex electronics from the factory itself. While a powerbox only leads to altered signals, a remap modifies the ECUs many settings & parameters.....a complex modification by any benchmark. I have yet to see one SINGLE powerboxed car with a problematic install (being how simple it is!). However, post-remap problematic cars are too many to count. Starting with Monkeys RS and his check engine light which wouldn’t go for almost a year!
The remap does just that -- re-maph the fuelling chart. It doesn't change anything on the controllers for other vehicle functions. Can you elaborate on Monkey's RS?

I think the RaceDynamics diesel piggyback will be a great intermediate. The convenience of a regular tuning box with the ability to load custom maps.
v1p3r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th February 2009, 15:00   #12
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,729
Thanked: 89,228 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invinsible View Post
Well I paid 33k against the 30 of the Tbox not much of a difference. No issues with the car what so ever.
I'm very happy to hear that. There are several remap customers who haven't had a problem till date.

However, I might add in the same breadth, that:

- Exposure to risk with a remap is higher.
- Number of complaints post-remap is higher.

Quote:
Also, the new C uses a totally different engine, not the OM611.
To be honest - Nope. I wasn't aware that the new C has an entirely different engine. Are you sure that the current engine isn't (basically) a reworked version of the one in mine? They feel awfully similar to drive (the new one only more powerful) and sound similar too.

Quote:
Can you elaborate on Monkey's RS?
Problems with check engine light, idling etc. I remember atleast 10 visits to 4 seasons in less than a year.

Quote:
I think the RaceDynamics diesel piggyback will be a great intermediate. The convenience of a regular tuning box with the ability to load custom maps.
Awaited.
GTO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th February 2009, 20:09   #13
Senior - BHPian
 
v1p3r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: BLR - chasing cars...
Posts: 4,836
Thanked: 26 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
To be honest - Nope. I wasn't aware that the new C has an entirely different engine. Are you sure that the current engine isn't (basically) a reworked version of the one in mine? They feel awfully similar to drive (the new one only more powerful) and sound similar too.
My apologies for being not wholly accurate. The OM611 continues to be in production. There is also the OM651, which is similar in dimensions, and puts out a maximum of 204 bhp. The only visible difference is that the latter has twin turbos. I'm not sure which one the new Indian C has, since I haven't been under the hood yet. Both engines are sold as C 200 and C 220 CDIs, among other designations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO
Problems with check engine light, idling etc. I remember atleast 10 visits to 4 seasons in less than a year.
I didn't know the specifics. It would be nice if he puts up a thread -- if there isn't already one.
v1p3r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2009, 16:33   #14
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,729
Thanked: 89,228 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
My apologies for being not wholly accurate. The OM611 continues to be in production. There is also the OM651, which is similar in dimensions, and puts out a maximum of 204 bhp. The only visible difference is that the latter has twin turbos. I'm not sure which one the new Indian C has, since I haven't been under the hood yet. Both engines are sold as C 200 and C 220 CDIs, among other designations.
If that's the case, then the new C220 runs the same unit as my generation. Had to be, they feel 95% identical!
GTO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2009, 19:09   #15
BHPian
 
sameel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: cochin
Posts: 268
Thanked: 3 Times
Default

lets be frank here!! REMAP is Trouble. I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT! ITS IN MY JOB TO FLASH AND RE-FLASH ECUs daily and test whether the interations done is working properly or not.
now i have got more serious work in my hand.

i do the VIVA test Virtual Integrted Vehicle Analysis the final testing that any ECU goes into before series production. !

when any of the meets come up i will be glad to take a session on these so called modifications! there are good stuff and bad stuff. safe remaps also are there.

i am in a position to remap any vehicle provided i have its cable harness and HEX file. and a standard DCM!! but that will mean i have to use BOSCH LAB Equipments which i shouldnt and wont!

i respect my company and love my job

do ask for any clarifications. i will try to clear them . not in a position to start a seperate thread. am pretty lazy
sameel is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Spider Diesel Tuning Box VS. Pete's Tuning Box - Spider Box feedback on pg 2 Endeavour333 Modifications & Accessories 130 11th September 2017 01:24
Key decision points for Audi A4 versus Mercedes C220 versus BMW 320D ashishkashyap Luxury, Imports & Niche 40 30th April 2017 19:35
Product Review: Pete's Digital Diesel Tuning Box Rtech Modifications & Accessories 239 4th March 2016 13:38
Remote Remaps - Droid Personal Flasher from Code6 Tuning Sankar Modifications & Accessories 27 5th October 2015 12:59
The Dawn of Turbo Diesel Tuning in INDIA - Pete's Tuning Box turboindia Modifications & Accessories 108 17th April 2006 12:33


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 04:26.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks