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Old 20th January 2010, 10:20   #16
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very true..
@speedfreak:the wolf got there in time with a lot of effort and overcoming a lot of failures..
everyone wants to get there and in time i will too!

@Shan: shabbir was just an example. well there are other zondas too with almost the same specs as the wolfs city and yet they arent even close... any reason for that? i know of 2 such cars with similar tunes (-) the ITBs.
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Old 20th January 2010, 10:20   #17
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IF you can implement wolf's engine, gearbox, suspension & Tune, setup in a Zen it will be a killer N.A setup.

Remember my starting word ''IF''
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Old 20th January 2010, 10:31   #18
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so yes. for such a set up in the zen it would need better shoes and rock solid suspension thereby not making it sereetable.
thanks jitu..
so yes the obvious choice would be the OHC.

@ Jitu , Shan & Speed : what id it that differentiates engines...
lets take a 1.3 Sohc putting out about 85 bhp and a 1.4 Dohc putting out 94.3 bhp

yes the gearbox and ratios are a major factor in the performance of a car and yes the ecm tune and ofcourse the weight of the car..!...
anything else?

ok plain and simple.. how would an aveo 1.4 stand against the esteem? apart from the fact that the esteem is about 850 kgs and the aveo is about 1050..
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Old 20th January 2010, 10:48   #19
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Quote:
@Shan: shabbir was just an example. well there are other zondas too with almost the same specs as the wolfs city and yet they arent even close... any reason for that? i know of 2 such cars with similar tunes (-) the ITBs.
See if you consider wolf's engine to be around 145bhp on a chassis weighing close to 1000kgs and then compare it to a Zonda with a 145bhp engine on a chassis weighing around 750kgs.

There is no way Wolf's car (145bhp/ton) should be able to beat the Zonda (193bhp/ton).

So if Wolf is beating a NA Zonda, it either means the engine on the Zonda is not good enough or the car is very inefficient in putting down its power to the ground. I mean a bone stock 106bhp VTEC engine on a 750kg Zen chassis itself gives it 141bhp/ton.

As Rocam has mentioned, putting a VTEC engine on a Zen is no big deal. Converting that setup into performance is a diff story altogether.

BTW, the pro stock record for an OHC VTEC is held by RD's other VTEC which did 14.9secs. Then comes Mihir's time of 15.1 or 15.2. Wolf's official timing is 15.4 secs.

Shan2nu

Last edited by Shan2nu : 20th January 2010 at 10:49.
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Old 20th January 2010, 10:56   #20
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Quote:
@ Jitu , Shan & Speed : what id it that differentiates engines...
lets take a 1.3 Sohc putting out about 85 bhp and a 1.4 Dohc putting out 94.3 bhp

yes the gearbox and ratios are a major factor in the performance of a car and yes the ecm tune and ofcourse the weight of the car..!...
anything else?

ok plain and simple.. how would an aveo 1.4 stand against the esteem? apart from the fact that the esteem is about 850 kgs and the aveo is about 1050..
Things that affect acceleration are max power, power curve, max torque, torque curve, gearing, rotational mass, rolling resistance, aerodynamic resistance, cam, ecu, intake, exhaust, comp ratio, comp pressure, weight of the engine internals, weight of the chassis etc etc....

There is really no limit to it. The reason why records keep getting beaten every year, is bcoz people are coming up with new ways to make a car go faster.

Shan2nu

Last edited by Shan2nu : 20th January 2010 at 10:57.
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Old 20th January 2010, 11:02   #21
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Heres what happens when a tuner knows what he is doing.



Shan2nu
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Old 20th January 2010, 11:07   #22
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yes so its a long way there...
lets see how it goes...
thanks Shan..
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Old 20th January 2010, 11:41   #23
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Putting all these P to W numbers aside for a bit, anyone who has driven even a bone-stock engined B-Zen will vouch for the fact that it isn't very confidence inspiring. If you compare its braking and turning capabilities to a VTEC, the latter seems like a sports saloon. One can't drive the Zen fast just about anywhere, like a VTEC.

Regardless of whatever suspension/brakes upgrade the B-Zen goes through, its basic chassis dimensions and dynamics, which include the wheelbase, rear torsion bar suspension, narrow track etc. make it a hairy experience at even half-decent speeds. A VTEC with good suspension setup can stay planted at 200kph, can brake and change lanes from those speeds when required. Stock brakes are VERY good and though a tad over-assisted, one gets used to it. Forget about these antics in a Zen, even at 150kph it feels flighty. A brake upgrade is absolutely essential, which does NOT mean an Esteem Type II swap, but something bigger and better, or you might as well be playing Russian Roulette

However, a lot of work into a Zen can indeed produce results. The 1.3 Zens running on the track are as competitive as an equally-powered Esteem. Those cars have extensive work into them, which includes a rear Esteem subframe wedged in to allow a rear multilink setup from the saloon to fit in. The track has been widened as well. After all this work and a lot of chassis reinforcements by way of a rollcage and stabaliser bars, it still can't keep all four wheels on the ground through the cambered double-apex C1 of the KMS track, due to its inherently short wheelbase, which can't be changed, whereas a half-decently setup Esteem clears it with all wheels on terra-firma for most part while the Zen is a tripod almost from entry till exit, which is when the steering lock is unwound.

B-Zen Vs built up na Vtec-_mg_40631.jpg

In a drag setup, Zens have a huge advantage in terms of weight, so if you're building a race-only car then the Zen maybe suitable. But if one has any intention of driving AND enjoying it on the road, might as well pass it up. A stock-engined Zonda with stock/Esteem TII brakes is scary on the road even in a straight line. Its not just the power to weight, its the fact that you know you can't stop when you need to. I would value that over that 0.5 second saved in a quarter-mile.

Last edited by doomsday : 20th January 2010 at 11:47.
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Old 20th January 2010, 12:05   #24
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totally agree..
very well put there doomsday..!
cheers..!
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Old 20th January 2010, 14:18   #25
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Hi Speedfreak,

just fyi please go through shantanu's quoted post!! That Vtec (14.9 sec)was built in less than 2 weeks and in the same place as Wolf's vtec was done!!

So, nothing is impossible, to prepare a monsterous DRAG machine you need
1. Money
2. The correct parts
3. Most importantly a tuner who know what he is doing. Thats all!!

IMO, a DRAG machine is all about showcasing the "Mettle of a Tuner" (Not taking away the credibility of the driver to handle and drive that car on the strip, but it aint as complicated as driving for a record lap on a track!!). Due credits should be given to him, which unfortunately does not happen.

The better the tuner and more the money, the better off is your car. For eg. there is a tuner in Japan called "G-Force" who is pumping 160ps out of a 1.3liter city engine and is revving upto 10,000 rpm!! That thing theoretically should be able to easily go below the 14.9 sec quat mile time.

So, its not that things are not possible its just that many of us have not seen it and fewer have been able to do it the right way!!

@wildchild4life: IMO a decently done up vtec engine on a zen chassis should be the right way to go to prepare a quick drag car. Oh! BTW. Shabbir's zen does not have a Vtec engine in it. It is non vtec 1.5 mill.

Cheers
Shrey


PS: Karthik when are you coming back to Blr!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by speedfreak View Post
@wildchild4lyfe:

Wolf's car is a MONSTER ! i dont think its possible to build another car like his PERIOD ! even if u did, its going to take a lot of time, patients and skill to handle such a car like that on indian roads.

i personally drive a stock vtec, and am amazed at the way wolf's car moves. it just looks like i am driving a santro when he pulls off from me
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post

BTW, the pro stock record for an OHC VTEC is held by RD's other VTEC which did 14.9secs. Then comes Mihir's time of 15.1 or 15.2. Wolf's official timing is 15.4 secs.

Shan2nu

Last edited by ssjr0498 : 20th January 2010 at 14:26.
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Old 21st January 2010, 02:32   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedfreak View Post

wolf's knowledge about his car and his driving skills are one of the main reason for the unbelievable timings that he is clocking.
@karthik - Unbelievable timing? I dont think 15 secs to a quarter is stunning by any means to run for cover. Even 14 secs flat is not unbelievable. FYI, their own stablemate clocked late 14 secs.
Unbelievable by racing standards for a 1.5L NA is more like 12-13 secs.

Nevertheless, a properly souped VTEC will be good fun in a Zen to make a proper drag car.

@wildchild - Forget circuit racing with the Zen. Thats the last thing you wanna do around a corner. Being an Ex-Zen owner and being at the circuits for every race, I know what I'm talking.
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Old 21st January 2010, 10:14   #27
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nah fieroid i wouldnt take the car to a circuit just the strip..
so i guess a city is the all round winner here...!
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Old 21st January 2010, 10:16   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssjr0498 View Post
Hi Speedfreak,

just fyi please go through shantanu's quoted post!! That Vtec (14.9 sec)was built in less than 2 weeks and in the same place as Wolf's vtec was done!!
hey is it your vtec youre talking about??


ok if you guys are in lets talk about the various mods that can be done to make the vtec a monster as you guys put it..

we have the basics , the filter and a well calculated FFE.
a port polish, ECM, ITBs

so now how are the gear ratios changed??
are there sprokets available in other honda models that you can use to change them? as like the Suzis?

and one more thing is that how much would it cost if you have an ecm say the RD in one car and want to shift it to another?... the tuning cost..

Last edited by wildchild4lyfe : 21st January 2010 at 10:31.
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Old 21st January 2010, 12:59   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildchild4lyfe View Post
hey is it your vtec youre talking about??


ok if you guys are in lets talk about the various mods that can be done to make the vtec a monster as you guys put it..

we have the basics , the filter and a well calculated FFE.
a port polish, ECM, ITBs
A regular conical and ITBs are mutually exclusive since the ITBs usually have 4 open/individual intakes unless you go for an airbox with a single intake pipe. There is a lot more you can do. Starting from the intake (ITBs or well calculated intake manifold), to the intake ports (porting, 3 angle valve job, valves themselves), increased compression (pistons), valvetrain upgrades (cams, adjustable pulley, titanium retainers and valvesprings), exhaust (FFE, port polishing). On to the transmission, the engine we have is a D15 with a VTEC head (Ignore the bs about it being a B15 engine. Honda has put together the City by scavenging various parts bins across their product range and across their cars from various years. For example, the intake manifold we have is one from a D16Y7 engine, but the head closely resembles a Y8 head. The distributor exterior is similar to a non-VTEC OBD2 engine's distributor, but the internals are just like those from an OBD1 VTEC D15B/D16Y8 engine), so many aftermarket/stock parts made for other engines are bolt-ons, including the transmission itself. I am not talking about FI engines since there's a whole lot more that goes into an engine properly tuned for forced induction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildchild4lyfe View Post
and one more thing is that how much would it cost if you have an ecm say the RD in one car and want to shift it to another?... the tuning cost..
Tuning, wiring and labour costs I suppose. Though if you have a Honda, I'd much rather recommend you to go for a chipped Honda ECU than an RD, no offense to RD.

Last edited by pranavt : 21st January 2010 at 13:03.
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Old 21st January 2010, 13:14   #30
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hey thanks pranav..!
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