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Old 5th April 2010, 16:05   #46
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Originally Posted by techn0l0gist View Post
IMHO ECU is not always neccesary - you can get away with a simple fuel enrichment mechanism. Yes , that will mean we donot run at the 100% optimal state of tune - but then our aim anyway is to go fast without spending much
Sorry, but this is totally wrong advice. This is the way to kill the engine successfully.

Other than adjusting the amount of fuel injected the ignition timing has to be adapted and a proper boost control needs to be in place.

The turbos you are talking about are yesteryears technology.


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Also a piggy back for the stock ECU to get fuelling and timing right wouldn't cost much to design and build if one knows their way around electronics or has a friend/student who can build it - won't cost more than 5k !
Whether you can build it yourself or buy it from the shelf it does need proper mapping, which you can only do on the rr combined with road testing.
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Old 5th April 2010, 16:55   #47
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Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
Apt video for the thread. LoL

Some of the results were interesting.

Shan2nu

Very good video, sir. He inists on changing the intake manifold rather than meddling with the exhaust manifold (like lot of us - headers + Muffler). Is that because of time contraint he had or intake manifold modification gives better (read faster) results than an header modification ?

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@techn0l0gist & @Mi10: The most basic addon required, the ECU is no where in the estimation???

Agreed sir - Without a proper ECU change / piggy back, No major engine modification would be 100% complete
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Old 5th April 2010, 18:23   #48
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He inists on changing the intake manifold rather than meddling with the exhaust manifold (like lot of us - headers + Muffler). Is that because of time contraint he had or intake manifold modification gives better (read faster) results than an header modification ?
A correctly calculated inlet manifold gives you as much as a properly calculated exhaust manifold.
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Old 5th April 2010, 19:07   #49
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When talking in account money spent and 0-100 acceleration, the easiest way, Get a bike .
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Old 5th April 2010, 19:19   #50
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When talking in account money spent and 0-100 acceleration, the easiest way, Get a bike .
At the cost of your limbs?
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Old 5th April 2010, 20:16   #51
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Originally Posted by CPH View Post
Sorry, but this is totally wrong advice. This is the way to kill the engine successfully.

Other than adjusting the amount of fuel injected the ignition timing has to be adapted and a proper boost control needs to be in place.
@CPH, you are absolutely correct, however in the indian context(think 87 octane fuel, G13/G16 engines from the swift/esteem/baleno), what I said does work - it _IS_NOT_ the best setup, and I agree with you.

A stock Maruti-Suzuki ECU does work with boost till around 4-5 psi where it starts to lean out and when run with a 5th injector referenced from boost with a MAP sensor, you can go upto 7psi. This is all the setup I'm talking about - anything more, as in optimal and precise setup would need an ECU/piggyback to control both fueling as well as timing retard.

And about the bit about succesfully killing engines, well things do go wrong sometimes don't they?

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The turbos you are talking about are yesteryears technology.
I am talking of turbos sold in india, today, over the counter and manufactured in india by Honeywell(garett) and TEL(KKK) , don't know if they are yesteryears technology - well this is what is available in India and it works well. I believe these are the same turbo's that are sold in current model production cars as well.

Also the Hugh McInnes book is old-school, but the theory still holds true, and for the large number of carburetted cars that have been sold in india(we got EFI for the masses only post 2000) - that book is a good resource for going about adding a turbo - and that too without blowing up the engine ! I believe if one reads and follows this book, chances of blowing up an engine while doing a turbo job are minimal !

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Whether you can build it yourself or buy it from the shelf it does need proper mapping, which you can only do on the rr combined with road testing.
@CPH, yes, however from the Indian perspective, there is not much access to dynos, so road testing is the only option

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Do you have someone who has implemented this?
Yes ! Its a simple circuit with a 8-bit micro-controller reading O2,Map sensors and RPM and triggering an additional injector and controlling advance, anyone who knows electronics and micro-controllers would be able to do this.

Last edited by techn0l0gist : 5th April 2010 at 20:31.
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Old 6th April 2010, 01:19   #52
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@ techn0l0gist - I am not out for a fight. Performance tuning is my business. In all the years of practising my profession I have seen many projects ending in tears because of the turbo applications.

Even I, with all mt experience have to watch it.

BTW the turbos fitted to current production in India are latest technology and this is why I was making the statement.

Hugh McInnes relates most of the information to huge turbos. Small applications are a bit more tricky. The beauty on carbs is that they are easy to fuel and distributors are much easier to set.

I know that everything is doable, but most of it requires a lot of experience and some people think it is a walk in the park.

And I want to say this (with due respect) that most of the people in India spend the same amount of money on components as we do in Europe, but we in Europe have the advantage that we have a higher income on average. Still, it hits most of us hard to loose their hard earned cash. How much harde is it hitting the enthusiast that earns less?

I would feel sorry if I see somone loosing all its enthusiasm and getting deeply frustrated because they think wrongly.
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Old 6th April 2010, 10:00   #53
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Originally Posted by techn0l0gist View Post
I am talking of turbos sold in india, today, over the counter and manufactured in india by Honeywell(garett) and TEL(KKK) , don't know if they are yesteryears technology - well this is what is available in India and it works well. I believe these are the same turbo's that are sold in current model production cars as well.
One point to note most of the turbos sold in India do not tend to have water cooling lines as they are primarily meant for diesel engines where exhaust gas temp and exhaust velocity is much lower than a similar cc petrol vehicle. Hence you are forced to choose larger turbo's than the required size so that you don't end up over-spooling them.


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Originally Posted by techn0l0gist View Post
Also the Hugh McInnes book is old-school, but the theory still holds true, and for the large number of carburetted cars that have been sold in india(we got EFI for the masses only post 2000) - that book is a good resource for going about adding a turbo - and that too without blowing up the engine ! I believe if one reads and follows this book, chances of blowing up an engine while doing a turbo job are minimal !

Yes ! Its a simple circuit with a 8-bit micro-controller reading O2,Map sensors and RPM and triggering an additional injector and controlling advance, anyone who knows electronics and micro-controllers would be able to do this.
Been down the carb turbo route myself before i gave up key reasons:
- Blowthrough setups tend to loose carb gaskets and collapsing floats, yes I know that this is fixable
- Jetting is tricky and varies drastically with intake temperatures, so to have a car running for long durations posed quite a challenge
- The distributor requires quite a bit of tinkering around before you can get an optimal retard
- You will still need an MPFI pump and a rising rate FPR for the carb
- I am not saying it is not doable, I have personally seen 2 cars pulling this off very well

Other option in MPFI with a piggy back like eManage(not the full wiring harness):

- I have managed to pull close to 12 psi with slightly bigger injectors and a fpr
- Hardly any control on the ignition
- However it manages to run on a Honda perfectly fine till 10 psi, and a baleno till about 7psi (ignition remains a bit retarded than optimal)

eManage Full wiring harness:
- 17 psi but realised 20% variance was the most that I could get accurately
- Ignition still remained tricky
- Needed additional sensors

Then the RaceDynamics ECU:
- have pulled upto 21psi
- can control extremely high flowing injectors
- altitude correction
- ignition and injection control on the current version RD901 is close to under a .01% variance hence much more accurate mapping
- and can use stock sensors with the stock ecu as a backup
- have used this ecu on a zen turbo, esteem turbo, na cedia, turbo cedia, swift turbo, na honda vtec, Skoda RS without any problems

Trust me it has been a long learning curve, just to make sure that engines do not blow up because of the wrong ignition and fuelling curves. As for the ignition advance circuitry it is easy once you look only at advance but the challenges start when you need to retard before the base ignition setting. Fifth injectors help but require to dump more fuel than required as the flow rates through the manifold to individual cylinders are not accurate, hence you tune to be rich just for the safety of the engine while loosing on a optimal tune.

Last edited by Psycho : 6th April 2010 at 10:03.
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Old 6th April 2010, 17:22   #54
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At the cost of your limbs?
No, but first learn how to ride properly.
riding a bike does not mean loosing limbs.
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Old 6th April 2010, 22:05   #55
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Originally Posted by Psycho View Post
One point to note most of the turbos sold in India do not tend to have water cooling lines as they are primarily meant for diesel engines where exhaust gas temp and exhaust velocity is much lower than a similar cc petrol vehicle.
TEL i believe makes a water cooled K03, costs somewhere around 25k INR or so. The oil cooled version costs around 15K or so.

Last edited by techn0l0gist : 6th April 2010 at 22:06.
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Old 6th April 2010, 22:49   #56
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No, but first learn how to ride properly.
riding a bike does not mean loosing limbs.
Don't mean to argue, but knowing how to ride a bike doesn't guarantee your safety if the rest of the people on the streets are absolute morons. Best to ask owners of superbikes about the pedestrians on our roads And sorry for going offtopic.
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Old 6th April 2010, 23:55   #57
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- have used this ecu on a zen turbo, esteem turbo, na cedia, turbo cedia, swift turbo, na honda vtec, Skoda RS without any problems
Thanks for forgetting the last car you did.
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Old 7th April 2010, 08:41   #58
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Thanks for forgetting the last car you did.
well I wasn't advertising, just plain simple forgot.
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Old 7th April 2010, 19:00   #59
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Can somebody tell me, what exactly is the nature of work revolving around the Intake manifold for improved performance ?
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Old 7th April 2010, 20:09   #60
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Can somebody tell me, what exactly is the nature of work revolving around the Intake manifold for improved performance ?
Porting the manifold, though that will improve top-end performance more than bottom-end. That also includes smoothening the flow areas. If possible, having a tapering intake diameter. That's all I can remember at the top of my head, will add more when I remember.
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