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Old 8th April 2010, 03:52   #1
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Default Trying to tune a honda city

I plan to start my first car project. At first i was thinking about too much at once. Ideas of a lancer engine swap with an evo, or a gypsy engine swap with a baleno were what my mind was swirling around....

I have quite a broad budget, and i study in America so ordering parts may be easier than trying to acquire them in India owing to the ease of knowledge and JDM connections.
I'm probably going to start minor tuning by the end of this year and spend the rest of next summer doing up the car.
When i do, i plan to document it and put it on here part by part

I finally came to two conclusion:
Firstly that i want a street tuned machine not an off-roader.
Secondly there are too many things to go wrong for my first project, what with the chassis cuts, welds, reinforcements and not to mention trying to figure out the ACD and the slip diffs.

So i figured what better to tune than an old Honda city.
the car itself weighs in at around 950 Killos, that coupled with a good 180- 200 whp would be an amazing machine
I was aiming to start with the suspension and then move to the heart: the engine. I downloaded extensive engine repair manuals listing parts and their working components for all the old Honda upto the year of 2000.

I was going to revamp the car with complete weight loss, dampers coilovers, braces and suspension kits to make it more rigid.
I was also going to change the engine components with a new crank, forges pistons.. and other minors like spark plugs. ending with an ECU reflash.

so i guess questions to start off would be:

1.) I herd that the earlier models of the old city came with independent rear-link suspensions. is that true ?

2.) I know that the engine types are Honda's D15B. I wanted to ask, if this were true, which one of the D15B types is it?

3.) do you know of any other engines that will bolt on ?

4.) Do the old cities run with carburetors or Injectors? since i have a few turbo's lined up..

5.) what would be a good place to start looking for engine parts like pistons or headers ?

once i have the details of the parts down i can start planning.
I've been going through the forums on team BHP and some of them are very informative... I hope i get the same response =)
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Old 8th April 2010, 08:51   #2
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well you can start here:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ohc-1-5-a.html (What is engine type in OHC 1.5?)

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modifi...igh-speed.html (Improving OHC's road dynamics at high speed)

The engines have been MPFI, only bolt on option is the d16, for pistons try Wiseco
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Old 8th April 2010, 09:03   #3
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If you are going FI, go with YCP Vitara pistons and FJ custom-spec rods. These pistons are made for the Suzuki Vitara engine, but they have the same bore size, reduce the static compression ratio to around 8.5 and have been known to hold around 400 whp on D16 Hondas. And compared to aftermarket forged pistons and rods which command a premium, these can be had for peanuts.

The head's a D16Y8, with a Y8AT or Y7 intake manifold, so the first step is to get a better intake manifold from either a Y8 manual or something aftermarket like Skunk2 or Edelbrock. The block is a D15.

~180cc injectors stock, so you'll have to swap to bigger ones if you're going FI.

Where do you want to buy the parts from? If you can source them from the US, all the better. For pistons+rod combo, hop on to FJ Distributors and get the D15B kit which has the pistons, rods, bearings and other stuff that you'll need for the build

Check out xenocron.com. If they have anything you need, don't look elsewhere. The owner of the place, Chris, is a great guy and will be very helpful during your build.
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Old 8th April 2010, 11:24   #4
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I don't think the OHC chassis can really handle anything more than 120-150 BHP.

Even at stock 106 (= redline), it feels dangerously close to accident.

200BHP would surely make it lethal.
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Old 8th April 2010, 11:38   #5
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@alpha1: A very valid point. Any tuning beyond 15% or so often requires upgraded brakes, suspension, etc.
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Old 8th April 2010, 12:35   #6
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Quote:
alpha1 - I don't think the OHC chassis can really handle anything more than 120-150 BHP.

Even at stock 106 (= redline), it feels dangerously close to accident.

200BHP would surely make it lethal.
The OHC chassis is pretty strong, its just the suspension and brakes that need to be upgraded.

Shan2nu
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Old 8th April 2010, 14:48   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
I don't think the OHC chassis can really handle anything more than 120-150 BHP.

Even at stock 106 (= redline), it feels dangerously close to accident.

200BHP would surely make it lethal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
@alpha1: A very valid point. Any tuning beyond 15% or so often requires upgraded brakes, suspension, etc.
ROCAM's OHC handles around 350 (maybe more) horses, so it's a matter of getting the right amount of stiffness from the chassis and enhancing the handling bits like the suspension, tyres and brakes. The thread that Psycho has linked in his post offers a good amount of knowledge if anyone's interested in making the car behave nicely around corners or on straight roads at high speeds.
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Old 8th April 2010, 15:00   #8
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Quote:
ROCAM's OHC handles around 350 (maybe more) horses,
Last i heard it was 400whp (470-500bhp at crank). Hope he can get the traction issue solved. Would love to see this do a sub 12sec run.

Shan2nu
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Old 18th April 2010, 00:45   #9
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Thanks for the quick replies, some excellent inputs.

i tried looking for the post a couple of days after but it was taken down and put up again a week later..... ????

any-who its given me some time to think and tell me what you guys think:

I'm going to strip the car and do a roll cage so the only interiors are going to be the 2 sports seats and the dashboard.
I'll start of with the suspension set up.
To make it more stable tuning the suspension depending on cornering speed and how the back gives out is definetly key.

Turbo-Kits.com 88, 91, 92, 95, 96, 00, 01, 05, 06 Honda Civic, LX, EX, SI & Hatchback Turbo Kits - D15 D16 D17 B16 B18 B20 H22 K20 K24 ZC

I found site that lists turbos along with the matching injectors, pumps and ECU... so as long as i can get a D16 block i should be good.

I want to avoid chassis cuts and welds as much as possible so i guess the last kink in the project would be
1.)whether the D16 series would bolt onto the chassis and transmission?
2.)who can i source an engine from?
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Old 18th April 2010, 07:19   #10
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btw xencron seems like the perfect place to buy a crank, pistons....

and Fj Distributors have a lot of items that are perfect especially the vitaras pistons....
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Old 18th April 2010, 07:50   #11
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Better:
GO-AUTOWORKS Civic CRX Integra Complete Bolt On Turbo Kits

Please upgrade the rods and pistons, the stock D series rods are pencil thin and cannot hold more than 200whp reliably, if that much. Those can be bought from the FJ Distributors site that I linked above. Upgrade to unsaturated/low-impedance injectors, either aftermarket like RC or from OEM Mitsubishis (called DSM injectors, usually flow around 400 cc/min and go for cheap). You will need a resistor box to go from saturated injectors, that should be available from most Honda aftermarket sites. The D16 should mount comfortably.

Depends on whether you want to source the engine from India or abroad. If buying from abroad, way too many places selling D series blocks.
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Old 19th April 2010, 08:32   #12
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I found a city that i'm going to buy this August when i return.
I'm pretty excited about the project and i intend to put up pictures and document the whole experience in a different thread, but i have to return to college in September so i was hoping i could find someone who could source me an engine.

I'm sorry Pranav I should have been more clear...
1.)I meant to ask If anybody could get me in contact with someone who could source me an engine ?

2.) And could you be more specific with which D16 v-tec blocks I would find?

Feel free to correct me on this or direct me to a source that would educate me better:
I've been looking online at the A1, 3, 8, 9, B5, W7, Y1, Y4, Y5, Y7, Y8, Y9, Z5, Z6 & Z9 blocks for the D-series engines

3.)Which one would be a good buy in terms of compatibility?

I've been going through the other forums and the B-series Swap seems like a good buy too.
From what i understand the blocks are listed from B16... A1 through A6.
they seem like excellent engines.

3.) and would i be right in my inference that they would bolt on as well as the D-series.

4.) turbocharging the B-series engine in a city seems to be just asking for trouble (in terms of pushing the limit, handaling and reliability) right?

thanks for all your help so far
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Old 19th April 2010, 09:40   #13
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Lots of good questions. You should be PMing or talking to Jitu (Ford Rocam).

As for turbocharging the B series, they make monumental power with little effort. The problem is getting all those horses on the road. The City is brilliant with it's lightweight chassis, but it's still front wheel drive and even with an LSD, it'll struggle to get grip off the line.

You need to first define what you're going to use the car for. I skimped the thread (apologies), but I see you're planning to strip the car out and install a rollcage. What are you planning to compete in? Rally? Autocross? Drag? Track? There are different setups for each of these applications. You don't need massive horsepower for a trackwhore car. You need slick suspension and balance. However, on a drag car, it's power power power all the way.

Decide what you want to do with the car. Then decide what kind of horsepower you need. Build the suspension and the rest around that goal. Believe it or not, a stock B16 with it's 180 horses will be a wild ride in the flyweight City.

Last edited by ImmortalZ : 19th April 2010 at 09:41.
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Old 19th April 2010, 11:18   #14
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Basically i wanted a car that would do well on the track but better on a tarmac rally platform.In doing this project i aim to build a beast and intensify my tuning experience so that i could do up a baleno after for a rally experience..

I figured a stock B16 would be a handful eliminating the need to turbocharge the D16, but in doing so i would definitely loose out on that yank me out of my seat feel.
As soon as i get the car and plan the engine swap my first priority was going to be the LSD, also the reason i don't want to exceed 180 horses....
I was hoping that with a reasonable LSD and full on rigidity the ride would be very enjoyable
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Old 19th April 2010, 15:27   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROGU3 View Post
I'm sorry Pranav I should have been more clear...
1.)I meant to ask If anybody could get me in contact with someone who could source me an engine ?
If you're buying from the US, Specializing in JDM-USDM Engines & Parts...hmotorsonline.com
If you're buying right here in India itself, find a reputed tuner who can help you get it imported.

Quote:
2.) And could you be more specific with which D16 v-tec blocks I would find?

Feel free to correct me on this or direct me to a source that would educate me better:
I've been looking online at the A1, 3, 8, 9, B5, W7, Y1, Y4, Y5, Y7, Y8, Y9, Z5, Z6 & Z9 blocks for the D-series engines
You can find all of the blocks you've listed. However, Z6 and A6 blocks have been known to be better than most others. Skip the D16Y blocks unless you plan on porting the stock oil pump. It flows horribly and needs to be upgraded or ported when turbocharging the engine.

Quote:
3.)Which one would be a good buy in terms of compatibility?
Hard to say because my knowledge is only limited to USDM cars and I do not know of their compatibility with the Indian City.

Quote:
I've been going through the other forums and the B-series Swap seems like a good buy too.
From what i understand the blocks are listed from B16... A1 through A6.
they seem like excellent engines.
Some of the best engines Honda has made. Still have the maximum aftermarket support along with crate engines and brand-new blocks and heads being manufactured and sold by third parties like Dart.

Quote:
3.) and would i be right in my inference that they would bolt on as well as the D-series.
They do not bolt-on as well as the D. PM Jitu, he has a B16 swap with a turbocharger.

Quote:
4.) turbocharging the B-series engine in a city seems to be just asking for trouble (in terms of pushing the limit, handaling and reliability) right?

thanks for all your help so far
Refer to previous answer. His OHC makes upwards of 420 whp and the chassis, suspension and transmission has been beefed up considerably.
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