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Old 10th May 2010, 17:01   #16
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What set-up are you running exactly?
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Old 10th May 2010, 18:23   #17
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My first call at low rpm torque would be air intake. If the revision is done professionally you will gain a lot of torque low down.
And also, on the design of the headers / exhaust? I experienced a huge improvement in my Vtec's low rpm response after getting a header from Psycho, and the automech free flow exhaust.
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Old 11th May 2010, 00:51   #18
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And also, on the design of the headers / exhaust? I experienced a huge improvement in my Vtec's low rpm response after getting a header from Psycho, and the automech free flow exhaust.
You would. Honda exhausts are notoriously bad.
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Old 11th May 2010, 12:52   #19
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You got it right.

My first call at low rpm torque would be air intake. If the revision is done professionally you will gain a lot of torque low down.

Unfortunately you won't find an induction kit on the shelf that will sort the torque requirement.

If I get some more info on the engine and engine bay, I can help you sorting it out.

I will take a few pics of my engine bay showing the K&N performance Filter (I havent installed a CAI though) and also post the specs with it.
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Old 11th May 2010, 13:37   #20
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What set-up are you running exactly?
Check out Ford Rocam's car here :

My B16 city review - behind the scenes (My B16 City Review - behind the scene)

1st ever Dyno Graph of my Turbocharged Hybrid OHC (320+ WHP!)

cya
R
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Old 11th May 2010, 14:55   #21
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According to what is being said a Hondata is managing the engine, which means it isn't a standalone ECU. The Hondata is an amalgamation of a standard ECU and a piggy back in a much more clever way. It is a way to extend the ECU. All features of the original ECU are left and problems like the dold running etc are intact and used as on the standard car. The extended electronics allows to cater for the controls the forced induction, which the OE ECU would be unable to control.

A standalone ECU is a different kind of ECU.

I am not trying to split hairs. The reason for bringing it up is that people might get the wrong idea spending lots of money on some wrongly interpreted information.
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Old 11th May 2010, 21:10   #22
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According to what is being said a Hondata is managing the engine, which means it isn't a standalone ECU. The Hondata is an amalgamation of a standard ECU and a piggy back in a much more clever way. It is a way to extend the ECU. All features of the original ECU are left and problems like the dold running etc are intact and used as on the standard car. The extended electronics allows to cater for the controls the forced induction, which the OE ECU would be unable to control.
Not exactly. It would be wront to classify the Hondata, or for that matter, any Honda hardware/software ECU hack, as a piggyback. The "remap"ability of old Honda ECUs has reached amazing levels, to the point where each and every table/map, including various corrections (IAT, ECT, Cranking) can be modified at will. Most of the work is still done by the OE Honda ECU, as can be evidenced by the fact that all the features can be replicated by software (See: eCtune, CROME) and other hardware (Neptune).

However, the level of customisability it offers (aftermarket MAP sensors from 5-10 different manufacturers), rescaling TPS input to accept linear TPS sensors from pretty much any manufacturer/car, fuel and ignition corrections and what-not, makes it a standalone. The only point of argument is that you're getting a tried and tested solution, as opposed to the blank page that a proper Motec or AEM ECU gives you, but beyond that, the Honda ECU will actually give you more features than most aftermarket standalones. The only sticking point is 4 injector drivers and no support for distributor-less ignition.

However, on most cars, agreed that a factory OE is much more suited than a generic standalone that only cares about the important stuff and ignores everything else.
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Old 12th May 2010, 02:26   #23
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Not exactly. It would be wront to classify the Hondata, or for that matter, any Honda hardware/software ECU hack, as a piggyback. The "remap"ability of old Honda ECUs has reached amazing levels, to the point where each and every table/map, including various corrections (IAT, ECT, Cranking) can be modified at will. Most of the work is still done by the OE Honda ECU, as can be evidenced by the fact that all the features can be replicated by software (See: eCtune, CROME) and other hardware (Neptune).

However, the level of customisability it offers (aftermarket MAP sensors from 5-10 different manufacturers), rescaling TPS input to accept linear TPS sensors from pretty much any manufacturer/car, fuel and ignition corrections and what-not, makes it a standalone. The only point of argument is that you're getting a tried and tested solution, as opposed to the blank page that a proper Motec or AEM ECU gives you, but beyond that, the Honda ECU will actually give you more features than most aftermarket standalones. The only sticking point is 4 injector drivers and no support for distributor-less ignition.

However, on most cars, agreed that a factory OE is much more suited than a generic standalone that only cares about the important stuff and ignores everything else.
Same can be done with any OE ECU when the mapper knows how to use winols and other software. Most of the mappers know only how to alter the basic tables for fueling and timing.
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Old 12th May 2010, 12:55   #24
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Same can be done with any OE ECU when the mapper knows how to use winols and other software. Most of the mappers know only how to alter the basic tables for fueling and timing.
Good information, thanks for that. Can you reveal the price, even if only by PM? However, at that point, what is the difference between a generic standalone and an ECU mapped with WinOLS or any other tuning software? Provision for extra injector drivers or PWM components is one advantage of aftermarket standalones. General I/O interfaces too.
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Old 12th May 2010, 13:57   #25
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Good information, thanks for that. Can you reveal the price, even if only by PM? However, at that point, what is the difference between a generic standalone and an ECU mapped with WinOLS or any other tuning software? Provision for extra injector drivers or PWM components is one advantage of aftermarket standalones. General I/O interfaces too.
To start with, what Hondata does with the Honda ECU is unique on ther market. They extend the ECU by integrating hardware and software for specific applications. This makes it as easily programmable as what we commonly call a stand alne ECU.

The Hondata will have the same mapping tables as the original ECU for the Honda engines. These mapping tables are much smaller than what you can do with a stand alone.

All OE ECUs have a mapping grid that is between 10x10 to 12x12 mapping points for each table apart from full throttle tables in some ECUs.

The inputs are all set and the valuations with the inputs are set too. The same goes for the out puts.

These can be changed with software like winols. But working with winols is very complex and needs a lot of training.

Working with aftermarket ECUs (standalone ECUs) is much easier. The software is straight forward and you can select the inputs and outputs freely. The mapping tables on some of the ECUs can be set to up to 100x100 mapping points for each table, which is much more than needed for any application I know off.

Disadvantage of the standalone is that everything has to be done from square one. This is very time consuming as well as very expensive to start with. But you also have to consider safety measures, which are all integrated in the OE ECU.

In modern ECUs you have three paths. If the data logger logs on no fault codes it does go into standard mode (Every time the car is started the ECU checks the data logger for faults). If certain codes are logged on it will go into an emergency program overriding all sensors apart from the rpm sensor and phase sensor if the are separated. Most of the people would not feel the difference to the standard path. Fitting any modification would not make a real difference in performance as the ECU can't adapt because the learning capability of the ECU is in a different path. In some cases the modifications would work adversly in this path.

One more path comes into play when the ECU is made believe that engine and drive train components are in danger, which will swith it to the third path, which most of us would call the limp mode.

In limp mode the car would not be allowed to go above a certain speed, forcing the driver to take decisive action.

In some ECUs you can go for ever with the speed restriction. Others allow you to go a certain mileage before the ECU shuts down. And other ECUs would not allow you to re-start the engine when switched off till the fault is seen to by a dealer or specialist with the right equipment.

Prices for winols, Kess, Race to nme a few start at 4k Euros, but be able to work properly with each you will have to spend closer to 20k plus annual fees, which allow you to use updates on a regular basis.,
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Old 12th May 2010, 18:10   #26
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Originally Posted by CPH View Post
To start with, what Hondata does with the Honda ECU is unique on ther market. They extend the ECU by integrating hardware and software for specific applications. This makes it as easily programmable as what we commonly call a stand alne ECU.

The Hondata will have the same mapping tables as the original ECU for the Honda engines. These mapping tables are much smaller than what you can do with a stand alone.

All OE ECUs have a mapping grid that is between 10x10 to 12x12 mapping points for each table apart from full throttle tables in some ECUs.

The inputs are all set and the valuations with the inputs are set too. The same goes for the out puts.

These can be changed with software like winols. But working with winols is very complex and needs a lot of training.

Working with aftermarket ECUs (standalone ECUs) is much easier. The software is straight forward and you can select the inputs and outputs freely. The mapping tables on some of the ECUs can be set to up to 100x100 mapping points for each table, which is much more than needed for any application I know off.

Disadvantage of the standalone is that everything has to be done from square one. This is very time consuming as well as very expensive to start with. But you also have to consider safety measures, which are all integrated in the OE ECU.

In modern ECUs you have three paths. If the data logger logs on no fault codes it does go into standard mode (Every time the car is started the ECU checks the data logger for faults). If certain codes are logged on it will go into an emergency program overriding all sensors apart from the rpm sensor and phase sensor if the are separated. Most of the people would not feel the difference to the standard path. Fitting any modification would not make a real difference in performance as the ECU can't adapt because the learning capability of the ECU is in a different path. In some cases the modifications would work adversly in this path.

One more path comes into play when the ECU is made believe that engine and drive train components are in danger, which will swith it to the third path, which most of us would call the limp mode.

In limp mode the car would not be allowed to go above a certain speed, forcing the driver to take decisive action.

In some ECUs you can go for ever with the speed restriction. Others allow you to go a certain mileage before the ECU shuts down. And other ECUs would not allow you to re-start the engine when switched off till the fault is seen to by a dealer or specialist with the right equipment.

Prices for winols, Kess, Race to nme a few start at 4k Euros, but be able to work properly with each you will have to spend closer to 20k plus annual fees, which allow you to use updates on a regular basis.,
Thank you. I've learnt more from the few posts in this thread than I have from all of TBHP's threads.
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Old 18th May 2010, 14:34   #27
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@CPH hats off for the info shared seriously good

In addition to people who feel Hondata or Chrome are not Piggybacks please remember the function off a daughterboard and USB driver board, this effectively makes them Piggybacks but have almost the full functionality of a standalone by adding additional sensors to overcome the shhortcomings of the stock ones.

Mapping may seem simple when one goes by hearing 10*10 or 12*12 tables and the support of a Lambda sensor to guide them, but do also realize that there is a lot of additional data that needs to be fine tuned and cannot be done easily in one sitting like:

1) Ignition: most critical when you want more power (fuel, plugs, cam, ambient temp, elevation etc. there are just too many dependencies to just list out here)
2) Cold Start (warm up cycle)
3) Idle control
4) Elevation
5) Battery load compensation etc..

However most of the functions of the auto trannies, ABS, Climate control, central locking, audio etc still tend to get driven by the stock ecu at least in most of the cases I know of.

Although most of the companies that supply Stand alones provide ready maps to get you started it is a step by step process to fine tune based on the set of mods you got and the addons on the given vehicle. The map on one car does not translate directly to a completely functional map on another. This is why you find companies that provide reflashes and rechipping services that have maps optimized for the lowest common denominator rather than the maximum performance possible. At least thats what I have seen and done please correct me if I am wrong.
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Old 18th May 2010, 16:29   #28
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@CPH hats off for the info shared seriously good

In addition to people who feel Hondata or Chrome are not Piggybacks please remember the function off a daughterboard and USB driver board, this effectively makes them Piggybacks but have almost the full functionality of a standalone by adding additional sensors to overcome the shhortcomings of the stock ones.
You do not need to add anything to the stock Honda ECU for the extra functions. Jitu chose Hondata probably because back then, the scene hadn't matured as it has today. CROME and eCtune do the same thing in software. The Hondata is a fancy piece of equipment to do datalogging and emulate an EEPROM with USB connectivity in a single chip. The Moates Demon is a similar and an equally, if not more, sophisticated piece of equipment. You could get the same functionality by burning blank chips and connecting a datalogging wire directly to the ECU's datalogging header.

Last edited by pranavt : 18th May 2010 at 16:31.
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Old 18th May 2010, 18:10   #29
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Originally Posted by pranavt View Post
You do not need to add anything to the stock Honda ECU for the extra functions. Jitu chose Hondata probably because back then, the scene hadn't matured as it has today. CROME and eCtune do the same thing in software. The Hondata is a fancy piece of equipment to do datalogging and emulate an EEPROM with USB connectivity in a single chip. The Moates Demon is a similar and an equally, if not more, sophisticated piece of equipment. You could get the same functionality by burning blank chips and connecting a datalogging wire directly to the ECU's datalogging header.
I agree Pranav, yes the softwares are getting sophisticated but there also need for people who can effectively utilize them.
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