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Old 6th May 2010, 16:37   #1
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Default ECU Remapping for MPFi Esteem - Where & how to get it done?

I am looking at remapping my ECU for higher torque and pick-up (as per Carls suggestion) as a Pete's box is not available for Petrol engines. Any suggestions on where I can get it done in Bangalore and how much it will cost? Will it alter mileage drastically, although its not too big a deterrent? Petrol prices seem to be going sky high in Bangalore!

I am looking at getting this done as I am not at all happy with the esteems performance right now. I have had 2 esteems before this, a 94-95 Black Suzuki engined one (this was a rocket!) and a 98 Esteem (although good like the previous one, made into a rocket with a K&N & FFE). I feel both the carburated ones were much better than the MPFi version. I really regret selling the 95 one though!
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Old 7th May 2010, 14:07   #2
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Since you are in Bangalore, and the car in question is an Esteem, I highly recommend a Race Dynamics box to you. RD's support in other cities still has a question mark, but all Bangalore customers have ended up satisfied as the company is based in the same city. I believe Karthik (from Race Dynamics) has awesome experience in motorsport Esteems, that's to your benefit. If I were you, I'd ask RD to focus on low-end power delivery (that's exactly where the Esteem could do with more punch).

IIRC, the cost is about Rs. 25,000. Look his contact details up from our Tuner Database
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Old 7th May 2010, 14:55   #3
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@GTO: What does an upgrade on a Petrol imply, Reprogramming the ECU, replacing the PROMs or whatever?
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Old 8th May 2010, 18:12   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
@GTO: What does an upgrade on a Petrol imply, Reprogramming the ECU, replacing the PROMs or whatever?
Either a standalone or a piggy back ECU, you can choose. Full details here.
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Old 9th May 2010, 08:19   #5
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anyone tested the new RD9010 ecu. Has RD also developed piggyback ecu?
i heard that karthik was in mumbai for installations.
so member please post your reviews...


cheers
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Old 9th May 2010, 13:51   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
@GTO: What does an upgrade on a Petrol imply, Reprogramming the ECU, replacing the PROMs or whatever?
On the petrols you can go piggy back:

On some ECUs (some of the Marellis and Hitachis come to mind) You have processor and memory in the same chip, which means they can't be taken out and being read. They can't be read via OBD connectors either. The only way using the OE ECU would be a piggy back. On normally aspirated ECU we have measured not more than 2.5% performance gain.

On turbo petrols you can gain more but will soon run into ignition timing problems, which in turn can lead to destruction of the engine.

If performance and economy reasons are the issue I would not advise to go for a piggy back on petrols.

Stand alone ECUs:

Standalone ECUs (unless they are made by Solaris, Pectel or some Motec ones) are inferior to OE ECUs. Their advantage is that you can freely program them and set your tables much more defined. The disadvantage is that everything needs to programmed. This involves one of the most tricky parts, which is the warm running cycle. Warm running requires a lot of balancing values due to the extra fueling required when running warm,

Standalone ECUs are usually used for extreme performance but aren't really suitable for day to day running.

The advantage of the free programming is that all sensors needed can easily integrated and all sensors not needed don't need to be kept.

One more advantage is the possibility of live mapping, which can't be done on all OE ECUs.

OE re-mapping:

The disadvantage of the OE ECU is the number of mapping planes. Re-organising them is fairly involved and leads to compromises, but this is not all that much of an issue for non race modifications. The manufacturer has spent a lot of time to get a very good compromise. Building on this is quite a good foundation, making it easily possible to optimise performance to the local conditions (climatic conditons, fuel conditions etc.). Modifications implemented can easily integrated in the mapping process.
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Old 10th May 2010, 10:52   #7
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Very insightful reply, CPH! Thanks. Some of us are thinking of progressing beyond free flows & air intakes to piggybacks / remaps. This couldn't have come at a better time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH View Post
Standalone ECUs are usually used for extreme performance but aren't really suitable for day to day running.
Agreed. For Stage 1 types who intend to use their car on a daily basis, I guess Standalones are avoidable.

Would you recommend a proven remap over a piggyback system? Or...
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Old 10th May 2010, 11:06   #8
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Remap over piggybacks. Any day.
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Old 10th May 2010, 11:55   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH View Post
Standalone ECUs are usually used for extreme performance but aren't really suitable for day to day running.
Sorry, i don't agree with that, A street car i.e daily driven & running custom turbo setup & high flow injectors, a standalone is mandatory for proper fueling & ignition and running part throttle closed loop operation. It runs like a factory tuned car.
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Old 10th May 2010, 12:03   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Would you recommend a proven remap over a piggyback system? Or...
On the petrol you need to alter ignition timing along the fueling to get the best power increase. This is even more important on petrol turbos.

The piggy back can't do it. A proven re-map will be much better because it is possiblr to adjust ignition timing.

On turbo Diesel engines it is not quite the same. When altering the fueling the ECU can compensate to a certain degree, but when over fueling, which is difficult to monitor the ECU is not in full control as it is tricked, which leads to long term damage, which can happen with a poor re-map too.

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Originally Posted by Ford Rocam View Post
Sorry, i don't agree with that, A street car i.e daily driven & running custom turbo setup & high flow injectors, a standalone is mandatory for proper fueling & ignition and running part throttle closed loop operation. It runs like a factory tuned car.
Not correct. Even my competitors would disagree with you.

One of them runs a factory ECU on a Clio 172 (normally aspirated) and has doubled the power on the stock ECU (with force induced system). I have seen the car running.

The stock ECU is much more complex than a standalone ECU. You won't get the cold running right. Such cars aren't driven in daily traffic.

The flow rate of an injector has no bearing on the OE ECU. Injector duty cycles can be varied.

The bigger the injector the more difficult it is to get the low rpm running smooth and even more so if you haven't got a variable injector rail pressure.

Another friend of mine had his 205 1.9 turbo charged and to get the running right for racing (no smooth idling etc.) nearly 2,400 litres of fuel were needed. The car was done by Webber Alpha themselves!

Last edited by Rehaan : 11th May 2010 at 13:52. Reason: Merging consecutive posts.
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Old 10th May 2010, 13:14   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford Rocam View Post
Sorry, i don't agree with that, A street car i.e daily driven & running custom turbo setup & high flow injectors, a standalone is mandatory for proper fueling & ignition and running part throttle closed loop operation. It runs like a factory tuned car.
I think we are forgetting that a custom turbo setup alongwith high flow injectors is in itself an extreme setup, so standalone's are required. Honda or Suzuki have not themselves used turbos.
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Old 10th May 2010, 14:42   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Since you are in Bangalore, and the car in question is an Esteem, I highly recommend a Race Dynamics box to you. RD's support in other cities still has a question mark, but all Bangalore customers have ended up satisfied as the company is based in the same city. I believe Karthik (from Race Dynamics) has awesome experience in motorsport Esteems, that's to your benefit. If I were you, I'd ask RD to focus on low-end power delivery (that's exactly where the Esteem could do with more punch).

IIRC, the cost is about Rs. 25,000. Look his contact details up from our Tuner Database

Thanks GTO. However after reading CPH's post I am just wondering if it will be worth getting it as he says it will just be a gain of 2.5%. Or maybe I got it wrong. also, yes I am looking for low end torque as that is what is lacking in the Esteem. You are absolutely spot on. Looks like I will have to make a trip to Raj to get me a silent FFE system and then maybe go on to a box.
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Old 10th May 2010, 15:07   #13
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@sarmarishi,

Its good you outlined what exactly you want. Low end torque is an issue with esteems.

Well tuned header's is the answer for improving that. I have driven esteem's in stock condition and with different variables of header pipe length so can tell you that a header which can give you lower end torque will do wonders to the cars driveability. Downshifts will be much less, and actually you wont lose on fuel efficiency because you would rev the engine less.

Dont go for a filter change unless you really are convinced off the performance increase. Drive an esteem which has a performance filter and decide for yourself.

And since you know who to go to for the FFE. We'll wait for the outcome.
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Old 10th May 2010, 15:38   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarmarishi View Post
Thanks GTO. However after reading CPH's post I am just wondering if it will be worth getting it as he says it will just be a gain of 2.5%. Or maybe I got it wrong. also, yes I am looking for low end torque as that is what is lacking in the Esteem. You are absolutely spot on. Looks like I will have to make a trip to Raj to get me a silent FFE system and then maybe go on to a box.
You got it right.

My first call at low rpm torque would be air intake. If the revision is done professionally you will gain a lot of torque low down.

Unfortunately you won't find an induction kit on the shelf that will sort the torque requirement.

If I get some more info on the engine and engine bay, I can help you sorting it out.
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Old 10th May 2010, 16:57   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH View Post
Not correct. Even my competitors would disagree with you.
My post was in reference to your this comment
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH (ECU Remapping for MPFi Esteem - Where & how to get it done?)
Standalone ECUs are usually used for extreme performance but aren't really suitable for day to day running.

It hardly matters to me if your competitors agrees or not, cause i am running that setup on my Honda on daily basis, this is my personal experience hence i tend to disagree with you that standalone are not suitable for day to day running,maybe its got to do with the type of standalone hardware/software & on type of car you are running it on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH View Post
One of them runs a factory ECU on a Clio 172 (normally aspirated) and has doubled the power on the stock ECU (with force induced system). I have seen the car running.

The stock ECU is much more complex than a standalone ECU. You won't get the cold running right. Such cars aren't driven in daily traffic.

The bigger the injector the more difficult it is to get the low rpm running smooth and even more so if you haven't got a variable injector rail pressure.

Another friend of mine had his 205 1.9 turbo charged and to get the running right for racing (no smooth idling etc.) nearly 2,400 litres of fuel were needed. The car was done by Webber Alpha themselves!
I don't have any such problem, i can still extract 9 to 10km/l average by keeping my foot light.
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