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Old 29th May 2010, 14:36   #16
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I think its more related because of availability of part. Few vehicle on the road, so few mechanics who know about the cars. General idea of FIATs being unreliable and horrible service stations.
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Old 29th May 2010, 15:44   #17
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A common misconception. Go through EuroNCAP when you have time.

I can think of several Japanese sedans and coupes which will whip an M3 on the track and are still sedate, docile daily drivers. But I'd rather not start on that here. The M3 is an icon, but it's not the be all and end all of performance sedans.

The reason people stay away from modding FIATs in India is simply because of the horrible availability of parts. If you break something - as you inevitably will doing R&D work - you are going to go through hell procuring the simplest of nuts and bolts. That and the tuning scene in India is more snake oil and destructive experimentation on customer vehicles than actual passion and science.
The M3 E30 is stell holding now for many years the drifting world championship title.

Also I have seen many cars being crashed on tracks. One of the most impressive crashs I have witnessed was on a trrackday, where an M3 convertible was rolling several times and the driver and a passenger just got out with a shock.

M3 are usually easily be beaten on the track, because most of the drivers can't drive them. I also have seen a 1600cc Corsa C with about 170bhp set-up by an amateur racer beating Nissan Skylines, Evo 400s and the likes. It was very huniliating for the other drivers and the crowds were just laughing (including me).

Regarding R&D I don't need to do a lot as I have done for quite some years on these engines, but I understand where you are coming from. This explains the situation.

I just wonder whtehr people would have an interest me bringing the Fiat know how over to India?

Or is it better to concentrate on other marques?
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Old 29th May 2010, 23:09   #18
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Originally Posted by CPH View Post
I just wonder whtehr people would have an interest me bringing the Fiat know how over to India?

Or is it better to concentrate on other marques?
Fiat has started to re-establish itself in India. If you're serious about a Fiat-specific tuning shop, you might have to wait for some more time till some of the issues mentioned earlier get corrected.

As far as opening brand-agnostic tuning shops, you need to figure out what your USP needs to be, to be able to compete with the established tuners already entrenched here, while keeping in mind that tuning in India has quite some way to go to be considered as a predictable option.
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Old 30th May 2010, 02:09   #19
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Fiat has started to re-establish itself in India. If you're serious about a Fiat-specific tuning shop, you might have to wait for some more time till some of the issues mentioned earlier get corrected.

As far as opening brand-agnostic tuning shops, you need to figure out what your USP needs to be, to be able to compete with the established tuners already entrenched here, while keeping in mind that tuning in India has quite some way to go to be considered as a predictable option.
It doesn't look like that there is a Fiat or Italian car tuner in India. Even on the other marques it seems that only universal parts are being fitted. There is a lot of talk about FFEs, but what does it really mean.

An FFE has got to be specific to work with the car to its optimum. Chgange ther cams and it all goes out of the window.

In Europe there is hardly anyone looking into professional air intake revisions, which is one of the things I do as a daily business. Neither is it looked at in India. Air intake is as much part of the engine as is the exhaust, but both parts are overlooked or even dismissed as imoortant by many so called tuners.

I read in a number of threads that people are going for performance tuning items, that are not designed to work together ,but being advised to combine them. I find this rather sad as it costs needlessly money for something that never can be the best with the budget at hand.

I am happily giving free advise, but at the same time I do not want to support any tuner that doesn't really acts in the interest of the enthusiasts and give them the best for their money.

I will earn my money either way, whether I give the advise or not. What I would like to know is whether it is wanted to get the know how or should I look rather into totally different makes?
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Old 30th May 2010, 09:09   #20
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CPH,

I guess the most scientific way that question can be answered is for a poll to be started here, with the following criteria:

1. No. of Fiat owners on the forum
2. % of those that want go in for a performance modification

Although the outcome of the poll cannot translate to the entire's country's preference, it would still be the next-best thing for having been sampled in an auto enthusiast's community, which is expected to contain the highest concentration of performance-inclined car users.

Please feel free to start such a poll in a new thread. I'm eager to know the results myself !
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Old 30th May 2010, 09:57   #21
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CPH, don't restrict yourself to just Fiats. You should think about other European cars on sale here particularly Fords and Skodas. There are lots of them running in major Indian cities. I have seen very few souped up Fiestas in India. For some reason they seem to be difficult to tune as well. Even on this forum, I have seen only one modded Fiesta running an FFE that cost a bomb. I am not sure how tune-able Skodas are. The ones available here already seem to be running on a high state of tune right out of the factory.
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Old 30th May 2010, 10:06   #22
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IMO the tuning industry in India is going to take a different turn when the government steps in with their strict norms.
When it comes into effect , all the small time tuners will be driven out or forced to go mainstream. But as mentioned by some, this is a boon as we will have more high class tuners and road safe vehicles running on our roads.

The market for Tuning Fiats is rather limited IMO. While on the other hand japs tuners have suzuki,honda,mitsu,toyota to play around with.

You may make a lot of fiat lovers happy by setting up camp here (including me) but it doesn't seem like a profitable venture in the long term.
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Old 30th May 2010, 11:21   #23
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Originally Posted by theMAG View Post
CPH,

I guess the most scientific way that question can be answered is for a poll to be started here, with the following criteria:

1. No. of Fiat owners on the forum
2. % of those that want go in for a performance modification

Although the outcome of the poll cannot translate to the entire's country's preference, it would still be the next-best thing for having been sampled in an auto enthusiast's community, which is expected to contain the highest concentration of performance-inclined car users.

Please feel free to start such a poll in a new thread. I'm eager to know the results myself !
Thanks for the suggestion, theMAG. I will start a poll.

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Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
CPH, don't restrict yourself to just Fiats. You should think about other European cars on sale here particularly Fords and Skodas. There are lots of them running in major Indian cities. I have seen very few souped up Fiestas in India. For some reason they seem to be difficult to tune as well. Even on this forum, I have seen only one modded Fiesta running an FFE that cost a bomb. I am not sure how tune-able Skodas are. The ones available here already seem to be running on a high state of tune right out of the factory.
Gilead, I am not wanting to restrict myself to Fiat. It is just that I lived in/grew up with Fiats and found them great cars to tune because of handling and engines. Also I am tooled up for most of the Fiats for the production of silicone hoses for the air intake revisions.

I ma aware that Alfa Romeo virtually does not exist, which means I won't even bother to ask.

Ford is a marque I only ventured out into last year and have made some good progress first of all on the petrol side, which might be of less interest.

Currently I am looking into the Suzuki Swift as well.

Skodas are tuneable as are the other Volkswagen group engines.

What I don't want to do is just churn out any product.

I develop packages with proven results (all is dyno and road/track tested) in order to have it on 'the shelf' and people do not need to spend the earth on it nor go into unknown territory.

I am open to any suggestion whether an M800 or a Jaguar. I would like to provide what people want and can afford. Performance tuning is not about the big stuff. It is often comparatively little effort that makes a difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
IMO the tuning industry in India is going to take a different turn when the government steps in with their strict norms.
When it comes into effect , all the small time tuners will be driven out or forced to go mainstream. But as mentioned by some, this is a boon as we will have more high class tuners and road safe vehicles running on our roads.

The market for Tuning Fiats is rather limited IMO. While on the other hand japs tuners have suzuki,honda,mitsu,toyota to play around with.

You may make a lot of fiat lovers happy by setting up camp here (including me) but it doesn't seem like a profitable venture in the long term.
Vinaydas, Whatever direction I will take I am sorting your Fiat.

The Jap cars are much more common than European cars and it is logical that tuners are most of the time working on these. But then I have no intention to compete with them rather than complementing them.

Tight regulations is what the government in Britain threatens the industries for many years. I don't know whether it ever will come, but I would appreciate it as it forces the ones out of the market that aren't supplying safe, reliable and environmentally sound modifications. And I am certainly not opposed to see them in India either.

I am not too worried about the profit. I have a variety of things I am doing. For me it is more a challenge to provide high quality products for an acceptable amount and see the know how being applied. It is enough to make my living.
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Old 30th May 2010, 11:23   #24
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Originally Posted by CPH View Post
I will earn my money either way, whether I give the advise or not. What I would like to know is whether it is wanted to get the know how or should I look rather into totally different makes?
If you have something to offer for the 1.2 motor in my Palio, I am a definite customer I always wanted to get more horses out of that engine - with all that weight the car lugs around, it's sluggish, but sometimes it does the job when rev'ed hard.

If there is a simple and easy mod which makes this engine little more powerful, I guess majority of the 1.2 owners would want to do that.

Last edited by clevermax : 30th May 2010 at 11:27.
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Old 30th May 2010, 12:21   #25
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Originally Posted by CPH View Post
This is a video of a 3.0l modified BMW engine in a Norma M20.


Thats a cool video mate

Do you know the route before? Looks like you were doing upwards of 120 kph.

Sorry this is completely OT:

BTW, FIAT and other european cars in India have not got fame on the tuning scene because of availability of parts when compared to the Japs. Singapore is just 3 hours away while Europe is atleast 7.

Hope you get the drift!
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Old 30th May 2010, 13:59   #26
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Do you know the route before? Looks like you were doing upwards of 120 kph.
They do indeed. These events are organised very well and drivers are only allowed when they have done their practising there before the actual hill climb. And they return there year after year.

The particular car actually took place in Le Mans. The exact top speed I do not know on this hill climb, but the car goes round some of the hairpin bends with more than 80lph and on the straighter parts is in sixthe gear, which means if you double the 120kph your are closer to the top speed there. Power to weight ratio is about 700bhp per ton. A Hayabuse would stand no chance against this car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by headers View Post

BTW, FIAT and other european cars in India have not got fame on the tuning scene because of availability of parts when compared to the Japs. Singapore is just 3 hours away while Europe is atleast 7.

Hope you get the drift!
Hmmm...You want me to push Europe closer to India?
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Old 31st May 2010, 09:44   #27
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Originally Posted by CPH View Post
It is often comparatively little effort that makes a difference.
Bingo! This is exactly what a larger audience would be looking at, a slight bump to the already existing setup rather making an monster of it.

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Originally Posted by clevermax View Post
If there is a simple and easy mod which makes this engine little more powerful, I guess majority of the 1.2 owners would want to do that.
One more 1.2 8V customer here waiting to see how this works out!
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Old 31st May 2010, 09:52   #28
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CPH, Question to you, can the 1.2 motor be converted to a DOHC? is there a bolt on head available? if yest can the stock ECM handle the change or we require and ECM as well?

I dont own a fiat as of now but i like the palio(stile) very much.


Pramod
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Old 31st May 2010, 11:39   #29
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CPH: I've heard that a simple remap would bring up the power up in a GP T-Jet to something close to 147 Bhp. Question: Can we reach 200 bhp on T-JEt with an Abarth turbo and probably with a few more modifications? (I've read it somewhere)

Was just imagining what it will be like, driving a 200 horse power GP with a bit more stiffened suspension, and a low pro tire

And yes, waiting for your answers on the 1.2 8V SOHC queries

Last edited by clevermax : 31st May 2010 at 11:42.
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Old 31st May 2010, 14:43   #30
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Bingo! This is exactly what a larger audience would be looking at, a slight bump to the already existing setup rather making an monster of it.

This is what I don't like on programs like top gear. The way they look at tuning is big things and patronise us - who can't afford these cars.

On the 1.2 Grande Punto a properly designed air intake revision makes it possible (have proven it on numerous cars) that you can in top gear accelerate from 1400 on a slight incline. Overall power increases to a bit, which makes the car that little bit more pleasurable to drive not even at the cost of your kidney.

One more 1.2 8V customer here waiting to see how this works out!
I look forward to my visit in just two weeks to see the Palio in the flesh with an open bonnet for a change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pramodkumar View Post
CPH, Question to you, can the 1.2 motor be converted to a DOHC? is there a bolt on head available? if yest can the stock ECM handle the change or we require and ECM as well?

I dont own a fiat as of now but i like the palio(stile) very much.

Pramod
The block of the DOHC is identical with the block of the SOHC. The differences ayre the oil pump housing because of the wider timing belt. This requires a wider tining belt pulley on the crank. The oil pump housing doesn't need to be changed if you can manage to move the rpm sensor about 15mm away from the engine and securely attach it. It is needed because the phonic wheel moves further out with the crank pulley.

You also need to change the timing belt tensioner, inlet manifold, exhaust manifold, some wiring and if you have cable throttle the cable.

Depending on what year Palio you have, the engine might have cable or electronic throttle. To keep it on the more simple side you better stay with one oer the other. Try not to change from cable to electronic or vica versa.

Also it is imperative to use the 16v head bolts. And preferably use the metal head gasket over the old type. This would require different torque setting and a different tightening procedure (which I can tell you when it comes to it).

Internally are a few differences too. The pistons need some pocketing or replacing by the 16v ones with 16v conrods.

Re-mapping of the ECU can be a bit of a dog and depends largely on which of the heads/inlet manifolds you are using.

Considering the cost involved for the machining, it might be much more advisable to keep the 8v head and do some magic to it. Within reasonable cost, your engine can easily be brought to what the 16v does out of the box and 100 - 120bhp is possible without touching the bottom end.

Alternatively you could look for an engine out of a rear ended GP or Linea ,where you can either pick up the 8v, which is a fairly straight job or you get the Linea 16v and have it ready to go in only with adding the external bits.

More infoon tuning you can find here: :: Performance Fiat :: What's Under Your Bonnet? ::



Quote:
Originally Posted by clevermax View Post
CPH: I've heard that a simple remap would bring up the power up in a GP T-Jet to something close to 147 Bhp. Question: Can we reach 200 bhp on T-JEt with an Abarth turbo and probably with a few more modifications? (I've read it somewhere)

Was just imagining what it will be like, driving a 200 horse power GP with a bit more stiffened suspension, and a low pro tire

And yes, waiting for your answers on the 1.2 8V SOHC queries
The T-Jet being a turbo is much easier to improve in performance than a normally aspirated. Unfortunately the 120 engine is not going above 160bhp because the turbo runs out of puff, no matter how good the air intake and the exhaust is. The 120 are usually around the 130 - 135bhp.

With the Abarth turbo/Bravo 150 we have with different modifications reached in excess of 185bhp. This is where the turbo is at its limit.

Currently I am working on a friend of mine's T-Jet that we have converted to a Abarth SS, which is at the moment at 207bhp. Due to the problems with the ECU, which means much more than re-mapping we have not been able to finish it. We are looking forward to extract about 225 - 230bhp before we need to upgrade the turbo.

If someones pockets are deep enough over 350bhp can be achieved. I have got on package ready for it.

BTW, I am working on your enquiry.
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