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Old 16th July 2007, 09:26   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath View Post
Do you guys think it makes economic sense for KS to post numbers of stock cars on a public forum? I dont think it does.
Hi,

I dont know about the economic sense but BUSA does have a valid point. Other than people getting wrong notions of what certain mods will offer gains the tuners also may get wrongly accused. BUSA's example below is a classic one. Take my OHC Vtec. I have done XYZ mods to it and expect that it delivers for e.g. 25 bhp over stock so my car should be close to 130bhp. Now if it shows up as say 110 or 115 bhp where is the culprit. The performance parts, the tuning?, the porting or the exhaust.

As per the rates provided I am not clear as to what it would cost me to diagnoise what mod/modification gives what gains.

Would appreciate it if KS would clarify how much it would cost to come to the above conclusion.

Viper
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Old 16th July 2007, 10:50   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viper View Post
Hi,
I have done XYZ mods to it and expect that it delivers for e.g. 25 bhp over stock so my car should be close to 130bhp. Now if it shows up as say 110 or 115 bhp where is the culprit. The performance parts, the tuning?, the porting or the exhaust.
Why not the dynamometer itself? That can be out-of-whack too.
Who is to calibrate it and certify it and against what standard?

A thought...
Considering the fact that so many urban gyms have second hand treadmills that indicate off-whack heartrates and stepspeeds, can't a lab in the western world get rid of a worn out dyno and export it off to some warm-weather place with neither statutes nor resources for testing and certifying dynos?

After all, a gullible public waits in the wings to shell out money for a number printed on a certificate.
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Old 16th July 2007, 10:57   #63
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Guys, lets not jump all over someone who has put in big bucks to provide a service we have all been asking for. Instead of sitting here and assuming the negative, go and give it a try. Or atleast wait till someone we know has and lets hear their report.

Give credit where its due, and KS being the first person in the country to shell out big bucks for this should be given credit, and at the very least, given a chance to prove the results without already deciding on its fate.

And for all those who doubt the dyno's results, you do have an option - get one for yourself!
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Old 16th July 2007, 11:04   #64
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Originally Posted by Rtech View Post
Give credit where its due, and KS being the first person in the country to shell out big bucks for this should be given credit, and at the very least, given a chance to prove the results without already deciding on its fate.

And for all those who doubt the dyno's results, you do have an option - get one for yourself!

RT,

Well said, but the point here is we are not doubting the dyno. We are discussing the issue of rates and say a stock spec sheet vs a modded car.

At the end of the day its his money and he know the economics better than anyone of us. I'm sure he has made some calculations and only then decided on these rates. Its upto the public if you afford it get your car tested there else like RT said get your own or wait till someone else gets an affordable one(doubtful).

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Old 16th July 2007, 11:11   #65
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The best way to use the dyno is comparatively.

Even if you want to test the difference a K&N makes on your otherwise stock ride, the best practice is to run the car twice; once with and once without, and that too on the same day, within a short time of each other.

Too many external factors can affect the readouts otherwise (weather, dyno calibration, car's state of tune (down to the level of oil there might be in the engine, etc etc).

The question is - what does KS consider as "one run"? Is it time based?

Also, the price of : Rs 3,000 per run, which translates into $65 sounds like a steal in other countries!

cya
R
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Old 16th July 2007, 11:35   #66
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How do you test the car on a dyno? I figured out the part of the front wheels on the roller and the back wheels clamped.

The rollers will have sensors which can measure the torque depending on the force exherted on it.

But what are the results like? Do you change the gears on the dyno? Is it like just first gear and accelerate till red line?
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Old 16th July 2007, 11:54   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
The best way to use the dyno is comparatively.

Even if you want to test the difference a K&N makes on your otherwise stock ride, the best practice is to run the car twice; once with and once without, and that too on the same day, within a short time of each other.

Too many external factors can affect the readouts otherwise (weather, dyno calibration, car's state of tune (down to the level of oil there might be in the engine, etc etc).

The question is - what does KS consider as "one run"? Is it time based?

Also, the price of : Rs 3,000 per run, which translates into $65 sounds like a steal in other countries!

cya
R
Thank you Rehaan.
This is exactly for what i have got the dyno."comparatively"
I do understand that to diagnos a car would take more than 5-6 runs.But the cheaper i make the runs,people will waste more time on the dyno.I would want poeple to finish thier tunning on the road,and then come here and do 4 or 5 runs to fine tune the machine.

Regarding the calibration....laws of physics dont change over time. Its an Inertia Dyno.Once u feed in the weight of the roller,the computer takes care of everything else.So till the roller doesnt lose any weight( ) it doesnt need to be calibrated.
Before spending so munch money on the dyno,I visited 5 dyno makers in USA,checked each ones software and then decieded.Once I even made 2 guys talk over the phone from different co. over conference.I sould have recorded that conversation,they would have come to blows had they been facing each other.

In short,the dyno is just a tool.The user has to know what to read and look for.A bad user can give the dyno a bad name.
Will a Minardi be any better if MSchumacher was driving it?
Its all down to the user.

Thank you
Karan.
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Old 16th July 2007, 12:01   #68
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Thanks for the response KS.

I was hoping it would be an interia dyno! Good investment. (For those who are unaware, this (vs. a brake dyno) is more consistent over a long period of time, so effectively reduces the % of error that the dyno will cause from one run to another, hence proving to be a better means of comparing.)

Check out this old thread, and the link in it! (Great Article on measuring Horsepower)

cya
R

Last edited by Rehaan : 16th July 2007 at 12:03.
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Old 16th July 2007, 12:50   #69
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exactly.
i think even a zero tecchie person like me can tell you, if you wanna know the real changes, do a run stock. do a run with your changes. see the diff.

and even more importantly, we can then see if the manufacturers original claims are true / reasonably accurate to start with
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Old 16th July 2007, 13:10   #70
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Robin, shelling out big bucks is allright. But one must also realize that calibrating a dyno is another task all together. It has a zillion parameters, I guess Atul has already mentioned a few. Unless a dyno is calibrated perfectly it will never show the accurate results. I am sure Karan would have already been made aware of this.

Though the point here is whether we as customers would be satisfied to see the BHP figures comparatively lower than expected. Only solution to such cases is to make them understand the effect of transmission losses etc. I for certain would pay for a run or two. If the calibration is done right, then this will go a long way into helping tuners tune better or also bust the claims and put an end to speculation.
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Old 16th July 2007, 13:18   #71
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at the end of the day, what is one interested in? and you are allowed to want either

are you interested in pure figures, bragging rights and a pissing contest winner?

the above case is for you, if you are intersted in hitting a number

or,

if you are interested, simply in getting your car more powerful and faster than it was yesteday ??


if this is the case,?(which is what i personally want) comparison will do nicely thank you, and in the comparison itself, you can see,if the changes/mods are working , and the power gain more or less accurately reflected

Ps... i must add KS, for from a personal point of view (take it as a kinda customer feedback), i would really hate having to pay up 6 k for 2 runs to see if a filter that cost me 4 k , had any effect!! ( but i would pay the 3k for the same job, just out of curisosity, more than good sense to see what happened)

Last edited by Revvhead : 16th July 2007 at 13:20. Reason: wanted to add my ps!!
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Old 16th July 2007, 18:34   #72
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hey Karan...

Do a "1st run free" promo mate...you would get the response you seek...from the knowledgeble and from the dreamers...

a lot of tuners offer a couple of free runs here in OZ..as long as you spend a decent amount on a performance upgrade that really requires a dyno readout...or are real good buddies with the owner or the mechanic..

Cheers to KS..for his efforts..
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Old 16th July 2007, 21:22   #73
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What is all this about calibrating the dyno (not refering only to Mclaren)? Its an inertia dyno for god's sake.

The computer knows the weight of the wheel, its knows how much time the engine took to accelerate it from one known speed to another, and it calculates the power from that. What is there to calibrate?

I am pretty sure the computer even has inputs on ambient temperature, pressure & RH (humidity) so it can give out what is known as "SAE Corrected Horsepower". If anyone has seen atleast one dyno chart in their lives, they know what this means.
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Old 16th July 2007, 21:31   #74
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Even if it was a non calibrated dyno (setting aside the fact that its an Inertia dyno), before and after readings will give you the indication that the mods have done something to your car. You can then back calculate the percentage gain to the ones specified by the manufacturer. No big deal.

Only problem is, 2 runs would be needed and hence quite costly.

In anycase I would do before and after acceleration runs on a free strech on early mornings at almost the same weather conditions (to tell me if the mods are working)
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Old 16th July 2007, 22:27   #75
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Ananth correct me if I am wrong.

I have heard that dyno's from different manufacturers with the same numbers set for different parameters put out different figures. Some higher, some lower. This in itself can turn around quite a few tables. Now which one would you believe if you were to know the real BHP of your car?

Also, doesn't one have to feed in the values for barometric readings, total weight, axle weight, vehicle's rotating mass, gear ratios, co-efficient of drag, vehicle frontal area, tire size, dyno roll mass etc? Now what if a common man who has no clue what CD his car has, or what his gear ratios do?

Also in which gears do you peak out to check the final output? Does it depend on a particular dyno? Or are there any standard rules? Also aren't inertia type dyno's less accurate compared to load type dyno's? If so, how will this translate into measuring HP say for a common man like me?

Also, cant dyno's be manipulated? Easiest ways are:

1. Entering the wrong set of values for air temperature & density.
2. Depending on which gear you take the run. Is it possible to do a dyno run just in 2nd gear? Suppose we do a run in 3rd gear wont the figures change? Also is there any standard procedure to this?
3. Getting the engines upto optimum temperatures for comparative runs.
And so on. I am sure you will be aware of all this.

I did infact read that KS had mentioned it to be a Inertia Dyno only after I had posted. Agreed ID doesn't need much of a calibration except for setting of the air gap between the Hall Effect sensor and the trigger wheel.

But my question is since there are too many IF's & BUT's how does one go about it? Suppose KS' dyno shows my car putting out 130bhp @ crank and tomorrow another tuner gets another dyno that shows 110bhp @ crank whom am I to believe? All parameters being the same.

How do I go about if I were to get a definitive indication of my cars HP without having to think twice.

PS: I do not have much clue about this, so kindly request you and the others to explain in detail if I have gone wrong somewhere. Thanks.
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