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Old 21st October 2010, 10:02   #31
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@sgiitk:The remap we are toking about right now is not from GTOs Civic.Read carefully
Its m4ugr8's remapped civic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom_rider View Post
Strictly speaking from the numbers in the graph, your remap doesn't seem to be doing any good.

Look for yourself:
Torque ........ Stock(RPM) ........ Remapped(RPM)
20 .............. 400 ..................... NA
40 .............. 600 ..................... NA
60 .............. 600-650 ............... 1300
80 .............. 800-900 ............... 1600
100..............1200 ..................... 4000

Max Torque: Between 4K-5K RPM in both the machines. Clearly any decent torque available is only after 2000 RPM, unlike the stock civic that hits 100 at as low as 1200RPM (80 comes even lower)!!!

Something isn't right here. The stock curves for both Torque and BHP seem to suggest a more responsive engine & if GTO is complaining about low end Torque with these figures...
Please look at the graphs carefully and you'll notice that torque and power in the stock civic owned by GTO come in after 2000 rpm where as m4ugr8's Dyno shows them from 1000 rpm onwards.

Note from the Team-BHP Support Team : Please use the "edit" button if posting within 20 minutes of the first post, instead of creating another back-to-back post.

Last edited by Technocrat : 22nd October 2010 at 00:12. Reason: Please read the note in your post, thanks
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Old 21st October 2010, 10:19   #32
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Sorry, Octane1002. Missed the qualifier.

I agree that m4ugr8's remap giving him decent torque well below 2000rpm while stock comes in only above 2200 rpm. So obviously driveability in town is greatly enhanced. On the flip side the torque curve is somewhat flatter in stock.
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Old 21st October 2010, 10:46   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m4ugr8 View Post
Wait a minute, If these figures are from a STOCK civic, can somebody explain how this matches with the remapped civics dyno figure?? The total BHP in both the cases is almost the same ~117 BHP. I am in a fix here, because I am running the same remap which is giving me a gain of 0.3 BHP.
Sorry to say, but upsized wheels or no wheels, the remap certainly isn't as impressive as I'd have thought. Except for minor changes in the torque delivery, the outright BHP rating is more or less the same. While the remap'ed Civic does seem to have li'l more torque at lower rpm, and that's a good thing, the stock Civic makes MORE peak torque.

I would have expected a remap to bring atleast 10 - 12 BHP more to the table. But that is clearly not the situation here. I can't see more than a marginal difference, and doubt it makes any difference in the real world.

I was sitting on the fence between a remap & a race dynamics box (with race dynamics mapping); this comparo is tilting me toward the race dynamics now. Anyways, both cost about the same $$$.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancer_rit View Post
In GTO's graph, the torque crosses 80 (as in y-axis label) @2200rpm, while in the remapped dyno graph, the torque crosses 80 @ ~1800rpm!
Ignore the rpms; they aren't the most accurately calibrated & you can expect a 2 - 5% difference. Karan took the car to 3,000 rpm (from inside the car) and then asked Rehaan to hit a computer button (outside the car) to calibrate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom_rider View Post
Strictly speaking from the numbers in the graph, your remap doesn't seem to be doing any good.

Look for yourself:
Torque ........ Stock(RPM) ........ Remapped(RPM)
20 .............. 400 ..................... NA
40 .............. 600 ..................... NA
60 .............. 600-650 ............... 1300
80 .............. 800-900 ............... 1600
100..............1200 ..................... 4000

Max Torque: Between 4K-5K RPM in both the machines. Clearly any decent torque available is only after 2000 RPM, unlike the stock civic that hits 100 at as low as 1200RPM (80 comes even lower)!!!

Something isn't right here. The stock curves for both Torque and BHP seem to suggest a more responsive engine & if GTO is complaining about low end Torque with these figures...
We were also having a discussion on another Civic thread about the way that Honda has tuned the drive-by-wire. I think the poor low end driveability is the outcome of torque as well as a dead throttle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragger View Post
did you check the wheel diameter on both the civics which are in comparision over here,that seems to make a difference on overall output on karan's dyno i believe,cheers..!
The diameter of 195/65 R15 & 225/45 R17 is a near identical 634.xx mm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viper View Post
The car that was dynoed was running 225/45/17 wheels. Rim & tyre size does play a role on dyno readings.
I don't entirely buy that. First, the overall diameter is nearly identical. Second, fatter tyres can lead to a MAX 2 - 3 BHP loss at the max for a 195 -> 225 upgrade.

I just checked your thread and the car was running a K&N + exhaust. So you are saying that a Civic with a performance exhaust + intake + remap will put out the EXACT same BHP (and lesser peak torque) as a stock Civic? There is definitely something wrong, either with the remap or its a weak link with that car. Whatever it is, and honestly, that guy better sort it out else he's wasted his money.

Quote:
It could give out more or less depending on the engine & tune condition of your car.
Note that my car is running in completely stock tune. No change at all.

Quote:
Whilst comparing make sure that both cars are identical in all ways.
I wish you'd have taken a dyno of that particular Civic BEFORE & AFTER the remap. That's the only real way to gauge any difference. Without it, I'm inclined to believe that the remap has made a very negligible difference, if at all.

Last edited by Rehaan : 21st October 2010 at 14:26. Reason: 196/65 R15 >> 195/65 R15
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Old 21st October 2010, 10:58   #34
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Quote:
I wish you'd have taken a dyno of that particular Civic BEFORE & AFTER the remap. That's the only real way to gauge any difference. Without it, I'm inclined to believe that the remap has made a very negligible difference, if at all.

Hi,

For starters that was not my car. If you read the original post quoted below you will see that "A friend just got his Indian Civic remapped day before which I got a chance to drive.".

I have no idea of the history of the car and am not here to defend anyone. If the remap is not effective its not does not make me a diff as far as that car is concerned. I was just a spectator.

Will let you experts come to your own decisions and analysis.

Viper

Last edited by GTO : 21st October 2010 at 11:54. Reason: Fixing quote
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Old 21st October 2010, 11:34   #35
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Honestly speaking, the remapped civic has everything gone wrong. If you see the torque & power figures for different RPM counts, the remapped civic is performing worse than stock:

RPM.........................Stock.Civic........... ..............Remapped.Civic
........................Torque...........BHP...... .........Torque...............BHP

3000...................100...............58....... ...........90....................52
4000...................107...............80....... ..........100...................77
5000...................107..............103....... .........103....................97
6000...................100..............114....... .........100...................114

And both of them peak out at 117 BHP.

So, basically, the remap has in effect, reduced the mid range without benefiting the top end in any way. Unfortunately, there is no way of comparing the performance below 3000 RPM due to lack of data.

If you don't mind me asking, how old are both the civics? Has the remapped civic done a lot of mileage?

Age could be the only differentiator here, since both dynos were done at KS Motorsports & the possibility of a faulty dyno is out of the question.
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Old 21st October 2010, 11:41   #36
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You simply cannot compare a stock and a mildly modded car's dyno charts that were taken months apart. Variations of anything between 5-20% are to be expected without even considering the gain due to the mods. Firstly, the different wheel sizes, different ambient, oil, coolant temperatures, KS' dyno roller condition, condition of the tyres, the dyno operator himself, etc etc. Like I have said before in one of the other dyno threads, a dyno is a tool for tuning maps where you need to do multiple runs one after another. Referring to maps even a few weeks old will throw off your readings and your opinion of the mods.
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Old 21st October 2010, 12:05   #37
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@ GTO: I guess there is something wrong with the dyno here.Why?Well, look at your stock readings where the torque comes in only after 2000 rpm and shows 22-23 lb-ft at 2200 rpm, before which the torque reading is really low on this dyno.Now compare this with the graph of a stock civic by Rototest Research Institute, Sweden which is one of the bigger names in the Dyno field.It shows 103.6lb-ft or thereabouts at 2003 rpm.Here's a link.

Powertrain Performance Graph for Honda Civic 1.8 -06 (103 kW)


The readings from the Dyno graph here seem to be inconsistent.

The same goes for the stock Skoda RS graph put out by the same equipment sometime elsewhere on this forum where max bhp at wheels was rated at 124.6 bhp, whereas if you go by Rototest the max bhp ratin stands at 132.5bhp(so there has to be either fuel quality/issues with the stock car/inconsistent readings of the dyno device).And I daresay, RRI has a huge database of other vehicles tested stock to compare with manufacturer's claims, which are more or less accurate and used for reference in other popular forums too.Have a look.

http://www.rri.se/popup/performanceg...p?ChartsID=512

Last edited by octane1002 : 21st October 2010 at 12:22.
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Old 21st October 2010, 12:24   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GForce1980 View Post
If you don't mind me asking, how old are both the civics?
My Civic is an '07 with 14,000 kms on the odo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pranavt View Post
Variations of anything between 5-20% are to be expected without even considering the gain due to the mods.
I would agree to some amount of variation, but certainly not as high as 20%. Tell you what, once my Mods are complete, I'll dyno the car in the exact same tune 4 times, each separated by 30 days. Let's gauge the differences then.

Quote:
Like I have said before in one of the other dyno threads, a dyno is a tool for tuning maps where you need to do multiple runs one after another.
Agreed. A major advantage of having a dyno available locally is for relativity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by octane1002 View Post
Now compare this with the graph of a stock civic by Rototest Research Institute, Sweden which is one of the bigger names in the Dyno field.Here's a link.
You are comparing an apple to an orange. Firstly, that is NOT an Indian Civic; its rated @ 140 BHP from the factory (Indian = 130). Second, its a known fact that manufacturers fine-tune the engine mapping before launching their cars in India. Third, the fuel quality in India is very inconsistent, compared to what you'd get abroad.

Quote:
This sure proves that the Dyno graph in some respects is inconsistent.
As mentioned, the only thing I see a slight inconsistency is in the rpm, because there is some manual intervention required. I don't expect much inconsistency in the BHP / Torque rating. With Hondas, people generally expect a 10% loss at the wheels. My stock Civic did exactly that (even the int'l one you linked to has 9.5 - 10% drivetrain loss).

Last edited by GTO : 21st October 2010 at 12:25.
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Old 21st October 2010, 12:24   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by octane1002 View Post
@ GTO: I guess there is something wrong with the dyno here.Why?Well, look at your stock readings where the torque comes in only after 2000 rpm and shows 22-23 lb-ft at 2200 rpm, before which the torque reading is really low on this dyno.Now compare this with the graph of a stock civic by Rototest Research Institute, Sweden which is one of the bigger names in the Dyno field.It shows 103.6lb-ft or thereabouts at 2003 rpm.Here's a link.

Powertrain Performance Graph for Honda Civic 1.8 -06 (103 kW)


The readings from the Dyno graph here seem to be inconsistent.

The same goes for the stock Skoda RS graph put out by the same equipment sometime elsewhere on this forum where max bhp at wheels was rated at 124.6 bhp, whereas if you go by Rototest the max bhp ratin stands at 132.5bhp(so there has to be either fuel quality/issues with the stock car/inconsistent readings of the dyno device).And I daresay, RRI has a huge database of other vehicles tested stock to compare with manufacturer's claims, which are more or less accurate and used for reference in other popular forums too.Have a look.

Powertrain Performance Graph for Skoda Octavia 1.8T -99 (110 kW)
You are discounting the changes made to the fuelling and timing maps made by Honda India for the Indian conditions (temperatures, altitudes, fuel quality, etc). Referring to dyno charts created outside India is pointless.

Quote:
I would agree to some amount of variation, but certainly not as high as 20%. Tell you what, once my Mods are complete, I'll dyno the car in the exact same tune 4 times, each separated by 30 days. Let's gauge the differences then.
Please make sure to keep the various corrections and temperatures the same.

Last edited by pranavt : 21st October 2010 at 12:30.
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Old 21st October 2010, 12:32   #40
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@GTO : "Finetuning" causes such a drastic change in the readings?A difference of 80 lb-ft at a given rpm is although not impossible, a little difficult to digest in a car that puts out 8 bhp more from the same engine although in a mildly higher stae of tune.Similarly the other factors mentioned may cause some difference but not difference of 4 times the torque available at a LOWER(2200 BEING COMPARED TO 2000) rpm.

Last edited by octane1002 : 21st October 2010 at 12:45.
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Old 21st October 2010, 12:52   #41
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Octane, I see your point. By "finetuning", I meant it in a general way (i.e. all cars launched here, not only the Civic). However, in the case of the Civic dynos, you are comparing two different international versions! They would NOT, and should NOT, throw out similar outputs.

Also, I reiterate, please don't pay too much attention to the rpm reading. There is going to be some difference between actual + stated rpm due to manual input & intervention.

Last edited by GTO : 21st October 2010 at 12:53.
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Old 21st October 2010, 12:55   #42
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Also the Rototest Research figures are in N-M and not in lb-ft.
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Old 21st October 2010, 13:05   #43
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@GTO :Im sorry if I sounded a lil adamant.Please dont take offence.But then since this was about dynoing a stock civic I thought your Civic could be putting out more than the graph's depiction.Sorry.

A lil OT, but then in that case the only reason there was a difference in the RS reading that comes to mind is fuel used.Because the version available here is the exact same 1.8t 148 bhp version available elsewhere.AFAIK thats the only reason why Skoda didnt give us the 177bhp RS.Right?

@Born2Slow:No one's debating that.Look carefully at my posts.I have posted converted values.

Last edited by octane1002 : 21st October 2010 at 13:08.
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Old 21st October 2010, 13:50   #44
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Octane the Indian civic has the same compression ratio as the (1:10.5) civics sold outside India, So to compensate for the Indian fuel the ECU runs a very bad timing (due to the feedback from knock sensors). Me and my brother recently mixed toluene to the fuel and ran it in our sx4 and Ritz. We could not feel any difference in the sx4 (1:9) , the sx4 has good bottom end to begin with. But in the ritz (1:10) it was a totally different story, it now pulls nicely from below 1k rpm even on the higher gears, which it totally lacks when using normal petrol. So the ANHC and civic experience we get is not what these cars are capable of as they run quite high compression ratios.
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Old 21st October 2010, 14:32   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
You are comparing an apple to an orange. Firstly, that is NOT an Indian Civic; its rated @ 140 BHP from the factory (Indian = 130). Second, its a known fact that manufacturers fine-tune the engine mapping before launching their cars in India. Third, the fuel quality in India is very inconsistent, compared to what you'd get abroad.
Further, The Rototest pic shows bhp measurement at the wheel hub. Even the method of measurement needs to be discounted for... tyre pressure variations might cause inconsistencies and hence, it's better to record tyre pressure before each run (and maintain the same across runs), or measure it @the hub..

@GTO : I am really interested in attending a dyno run. Can I reach KSM same time you plan to (this weekend?)...
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