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Old 21st October 2010, 14:44   #46
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Originally Posted by m4ugr8 View Post
The total BHP in both the cases is almost the same ~117 BHP. I am in a fix here, because I am running the same remap which is giving me a gain of 0.3 BHP.
Interesting!

However, its hard to say unless you ISOLATE the change.

Its possible that (for example) your free-flow is awful and causing a larger loss in power than the remap is providing. There could be a lot of other factors too.

The best way to do it is to do a direct before / after when you make a single change.

How much of an increase did the remap promise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by viper View Post
The car that was dynoed was running 225/45/17 wheels. Rim & tyre size does play a role on dyno readings.
True, and we'll see just how much when we do a before & after tyre upgrade dyno run on the civic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pranavt View Post
...a dyno is a tool for tuning maps where you need to do multiple runs one after another.
^^ This! Assuming you want to eliminate a large number of variables (ie get a more accurate readout of the change).

Quote:
Originally Posted by octane1002 View Post
Well, look at your stock readings where the torque comes in only after 2000 rpm and shows 22-23 lb-ft at 2200 rpm, before which the torque reading is really low on this dyno.
No nonono!

You can't use any of the readings below ~2600 (just how you can't use the readings past ~6800!).

Whats shown on the graph there is not the actual torque being made. The dyno isn't getting accurate readings there (probably being an inertia dyno).

Quote:
Originally Posted by octane1002 View Post
...max bhp at wheels was rated at 124.6 bhp, whereas if you go by Rototest the max bhp ratin stands at 132.5bhp
The Rototest says "ENGINE" power, whereas the 124.6 is at the wheels. Could this be the issue?


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I'll dyno the car in the exact same tune 4 times, each separated by 30 days. Let's gauge the differences then.
Great idea!

Quote:
Originally Posted by motorpsycho View Post
I was unaware of the band at which the Civic actually starts to move , but does just a couple of hundred RPM's make such a difference?
Not sure what you mean by "starts to move". It can move at idle too.
Few hundred RPM can sure make a noticeable difference, especially on underpowered or turbocharged cars.


cya
R

Last edited by Rehaan : 21st October 2010 at 14:48.
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Old 21st October 2010, 15:34   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post

The Rototest says "ENGINE" power, whereas the 124.6 is at the wheels. Could this be the issue?



Nah..Thats not the issue.Look at all the charts.They've also used the term "wheel power" to denote the same figures.
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Old 21st October 2010, 16:25   #48
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Well, there seems to be no point in comparing the two Dyno Graphs due to so many inconsistencies. The best thing would be to wait till GTO comes back with the new dyno run with the performance mods. We can compare them.

@GTO. I don't need to say this, but, please give us complete details on what mods you will do on the civic along with the pics.

Quote:
GTO: I would agree to some amount of variation, but certainly not as high as 20%. Tell you what, once my Mods are complete, I'll dyno the car in the exact same tune 4 times, each separated by 30 days. Let's gauge the differences then.
That would be awesome! I feel 2 times with a difference of 60 days would be ok too. Save the extra amount for petrol. You will need it when you redline it all day...
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Old 21st October 2010, 19:41   #49
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This is great stuff GTO. I have been thinking on similar lines for my NA Linea 1.4 (Lord knows that thing needs a power boost). I am particularly pleased that you are also putting up the cost of these upgrades. Would request you to put up a final summary of the total damage once you are through (including dyno runs).

Also, I am quite certain you are not looking at it from an FE perspective. However, since you are (primarily?) targetting the low end performance, this would improve the city driving and have an impact on the FE too (for the better). Your thoughts?
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Old 21st October 2010, 20:05   #50
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It is indeed surprising to note that the Re-mapped Civic is performing just about at par with a stock Civic. So in plain English the re-map was a misfire, which is very disappointing. Why not do a real time 0-100 & post the respective numbers for all to see.

I think that should give a fair idea of how effective (or not) the re-map has been. Compare the numbers with GTO's stock Civic & we should have a clear picture. All the alleged misinterpretations of the Dyno run would be put to rest.

Just my POV



Cheers
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Old 22nd October 2010, 09:07   #51
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I do not see why many of you consider that remaps do not get you too much additional juice. The engine is very highly developed, so by definition should not permit too much 'fiddling'.

I may add that has someone tried the standard European map which is 140bhp as against the 130 horses available to us. With 91RON standard across the country (unofficial additives excepted) we should be able to run it. I remember a post somewhere that a person had that map installed and was quite happy with it. This was a long time ago so cannot remember where!
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Old 22nd October 2010, 13:15   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
At the end of this, I should have a 150 BHP naturally-aspirated Civic. Then, it's time to consider forced induction (another 20 - 30 BHP)
Go forced ! but again u might have to increase the dia of the exhaust to 2.5? But will be expensive since you are fan of horses from the factory lol!
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Old 22nd October 2010, 18:26   #53
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Quote:
Wait a minute, If these figures are from a STOCK civic, can somebody explain how this matches with the remapped civics dyno figure?? The total BHP in both the cases is almost the same ~117 BHP. I am in a fix here, because I am running the same remap which is giving me a gain of 0.3 BHP.
You really expected a remap to give more horsepower...
I always smelt a rat there!

Last edited by GTO : 24th October 2010 at 10:24. Reason: Removing snake oil comment
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Old 22nd October 2010, 23:29   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ST7677 View Post
You really expected a remap to give more horsepower...
I always smelt snake oil there!
Well that was what I was told and what I paid for honestly!! Whatever the losses maybe due to bigger tires or dyno run but this clearly shows the remap does not give any "SIGNIFICANT" gain in actual BHP figure.
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Old 23rd October 2010, 00:47   #55
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Please do not discount the change in ambient conditions and operator error. The way the dyno is operated leaves a lot to be desired. Asking for the car to be taken to X rpm and then calibrating that based on an inaccurate guess can only fly in a country like ours where there is such a huge scarcity of dynos. Any other country and the dyno operation would be considered a big joke. Not advocating or refuting any opinion, but only use it as a tool to compare your own figures against past/future mods/tune, not for outright comparisons with another car that has been tested on a different day.

Last edited by pranavt : 23rd October 2010 at 00:49.
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Old 23rd October 2010, 10:43   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m4ugr8 View Post
Well that was what I was told and what I paid for honestly!! Whatever the losses maybe due to bigger tires or dyno run but this clearly shows the remap does not give any "SIGNIFICANT" gain in actual BHP figure.


I beg to differ. In your case it is clearly apparent that the re-map did no good. But I can tell you that my Octavia 1.9TDi has a re-map from Pete's & it definately works. I can vouch for it. It is infact way better than the Pete's box.

So what I am saying is the re-maps CAN give SIGNIFICANT power gains IF done right.

I can assure you that your Civic can perform way better, speak to Kiirus, he seems to have done remaps which work in real time. If he cannot do it, he will refuse (as he did for my Petrol Swift)

Ofcourse the other option is going Turbo, that of course would be awesome. Speak to Phil - he is doing my Turbo setup for the Petrol Swift. Better still go for a Type R transplant !! So the car moves to match the looks !


Cheers

Last edited by Ricky_63 : 23rd October 2010 at 10:44.
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Old 23rd October 2010, 11:10   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky_63 View Post
I beg to differ. In your case it is clearly apparent that the re-map did no good. But I can tell you that my Octavia 1.9TDi has a re-map from Pete's & it definately works. I can vouch for it. It is infact way better than the Pete's box.

So what I am saying is the re-maps CAN give SIGNIFICANT power gains IF done right.

I can assure you that your Civic can perform way better, speak to Kiirus, he seems to have done remaps which work in real time. If he cannot do it, he will refuse (as he did for my Petrol Swift)

Ofcourse the other option is going Turbo, that of course would be awesome. Speak to Phil - he is doing my Turbo setup for the Petrol Swift. Better still go for a Type R transplant !! So the car moves to match the looks !


Cheers
Hi Ricky,

Just to set the record straight I am quoting below some exepts from Manan's own thread.


“Both My civic and CR-V were fitted with the ECU's today evening and the initial driving impressions have been very very impressive. My Car has become very responsive and the Joy to REV a Honda engine has increased three times. The new RPM limiter is now 7800 and the car goes all the way to 7800 without any problems, It loves to go to that point. Put the car in second and it continues to pull further. I am highly impressed by this.”

“Yup, It sure is, Costed me around 30k for the Re-Map. I have not timed it properly, But yes did try once, Was getting a Early 9 Second figure, Will time it using the OBDII Software once i lay my hands on the scanner”
“Thanks For the advice nitrous, Its not that I Rev it to 7800 RPM Everyday, As a matter of fact, like Ishaan has Posted in his review, The power drops steeply after 7500 RPM so its useless anyways to rev beyond that, And I get so much power in the Lower and Mid Band I really dont feel the need of revving it so much, Whosoever has driven my car has always ended up enjoying the power band of 2000 to 6000 RPM. But anyways thanks for the tip once again.”
“Extended Rev-Limiter is like an added bonus feature, Remap I guess does not only mean the Rev-limit increase right?? One who drives a Civic on daily basis can very very easily judge the increase in power at lower revs. The way the car pulls from almost 1500 RPM all the Way to 7000RPM in any gear is addictive.

I know of three Civics now all running the same Remap and very very happy with the performance gains they have.”

Will not comment on the dyno figures since his car was not dynoed before or after the remap. We are all discussing hypothetic figures as both the cars are different. He went in for the remap based on the dyno results X got after remapping and he was happy with that. If his car was dynoed before and after and he did not get promised gains am sure Zakie would have happily returned his money.

Viper

Mods - I know this is Off Topic but since comments are being made I felt a clarification is required.

Last edited by GTO : 23rd October 2010 at 13:06. Reason: No need to claim who helped whom with the remap
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Old 23rd October 2010, 11:35   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Modification season begins

As committed, I'm going to dyno the Civic before and after each modification, to gauge the exact horsepower increase (if at all) from each add-on. We'll start with stage one Mods; performance exhaust coming up this week.

Dyno Run No. 1 : Stock = 117 BHP at the wheels. Honda claims the Civic churns out 130 BHP. So that's an exact 10% transmission loss, as expected. Drivetrain loss & clutch slippage result in a 10 - 20% loss (some tuners average it out to 15%).

To know all about dyno runs: take a look at this thread (All about Dynamometers + DYNO visit with GTO's Vtec!).

Attachment 440101

What's next? Dyno numbers after the performance exhaust install this week.
Does the torque curve not look incorrect here? The same axis is used for both HP and torque with the torque maxing out at 110 N-m (units are "HP" for both power & torque as per the curve). Honda claims max torque of 175 N-m. Even if you consider transmission losses, 175 to 110 drop in torque looks to be very steep. The torque at 2K rpm as well seems to be super low. I know the low end torque issue in Civic but the torque value per the graph at 2K rpm is abysmally low.
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Old 23rd October 2010, 11:43   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viper View Post
Hi Ricky,

Just to set the record straight I am quoting below some exepts from Manan's own thread.


“Both My civic and CR-V were fitted with the ECU's today evening and the initial driving impressions have been very very impressive. My Car has become very responsive and the Joy to REV a Honda engine has increased three times. The new RPM limiter is now 7800 and the car goes all the way to 7800 without any problems, It loves to go to that point. Put the car in second and it continues to pull further. I am highly impressed by this.”

“Yup, It sure is, Costed me around 30k for the Re-Map. I have not timed it properly, But yes did try once, Was getting a Early 9 Second figure, Will time it using the OBDII Software once i lay my hands on the scanner”
“Thanks For the advice nitrous, Its not that I Rev it to 7800 RPM Everyday, As a matter of fact, like Ishaan has Posted in his review, The power drops steeply after 7500 RPM so its useless anyways to rev beyond that, And I get so much power in the Lower and Mid Band I really dont feel the need of revving it so much, Whosoever has driven my car has always ended up enjoying the power band of 2000 to 6000 RPM. But anyways thanks for the tip once again.”
“Extended Rev-Limiter is like an added bonus feature, Remap I guess does not only mean the Rev-limit increase right?? One who drives a Civic on daily basis can very very easily judge the increase in power at lower revs. The way the car pulls from almost 1500 RPM all the Way to 7000RPM in any gear is addictive.

I know of three Civics now all running the same Remap and very very happy with the performance gains they have.”

Will not comment on the dyno figures since his car was not dynoed before or after the remap. We are all discussing hypothetic figures as both the cars are different. He went in for the remap based on the dyno results X got after remapping and he was happy with that. If his car was dynoed before and after and he did not get promised gains am sure Zakie would have happily returned his money.

Viper

Mods - I know this is Off Topic but since comments are being made I felt a clarification is required.

@viper

Hi, for one I did not know who did the remap for him. I am just putting forth my POV, purely based on my experience with remapping my Octavia. No offence meant.

I simply did not understand how a stock Civic & a remapped Civic have nearly the same numbers.



Cheers

Last edited by GTO : 23rd October 2010 at 13:06. Reason: Fixing quoted post
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Old 23rd October 2010, 13:24   #60
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I dont think you guys are going to get the dyno figures today. I was supposed to go with GTO and he said it wasnt possible today.

But I cant wait to see what my car puts out and also to see the difference the exhaust makes on the Civic.
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