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Old 23rd October 2010, 13:35   #61
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Originally Posted by octane1002 View Post
@GTO :Im sorry if I sounded a lil adamant.Please dont take offence.
Not at all . Beauty of a two-way forum discussion.

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But then since this was about dynoing a stock civic I thought your Civic could be putting out more than the graph's depiction.
130 BHP stock - 10% drivetrain losses = 117 BHP. Its in line with expectations.

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Originally Posted by Born2Slow View Post
Octane the Indian civic has the same compression ratio as the (1:10.5) civics sold outside India, So to compensate for the Indian fuel the ECU runs a very bad timing (due to the feedback from knock sensors).
True. No point comparing a dyno run of an India-spec car to a Euro.

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Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
Its possible that (for example) your free-flow is awful and causing a larger loss in power than the remap is providing.
Just a note : The remapp'ed Civic graph posted earlier isn't m4ugr8's car.

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Originally Posted by GForce1980 View Post
@GTO. I don't need to say this, but, please give us complete details on what mods you will do on the civic along with the pics.
Of course. The Automech exhaust has already been fitted on my car and I'm immensely happy with low end throttle response. His quality of install, as always, is impeccable. No headers possible, so don't expect too high a gain. Will dyno sometime next week and update.

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That would be awesome! I feel 2 times with a difference of 60 days would be ok too. Save the extra amount for petrol. You will need it when you redline it all day...
Aye aye, well said & noted.

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Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad View Post
Also, I am quite certain you are not looking at it from an FE perspective. However, since you are (primarily?) targetting the low end performance, this would improve the city driving and have an impact on the FE too (for the better). Your thoughts?
Could be. For example, a free flow exhaust should theoretically improve the exhaling capability of your engine and hence, the FE too. However, its IMPOSSIBLE to drive with a light foot. You get addicted to the sound, and keep revving again & again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky_63 View Post
It is indeed surprising to note that the Re-mapped Civic is performing just about at par with a stock Civic. So in plain English the re-map was a misfire, which is very disappointing. Why not do a real time 0-100 & post the respective numbers for all to see.
On the face of it, I'm not impressed at all with the remap. Perhaps a before / after would be most indicative, but that's not been provided to us.

We didn't have a dyno back then, but the way that the Petes box performed was for all to see. We timed Rtech's Octavia in a 0 - 100, fitted the box and timed her right after on the same day. There was an improvement of nearly 3 seconds IIRC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
The engine is very highly developed, so by definition should not permit too much 'fiddling'.
I'm told that remaps on Civics aren't exactly hot. They mainly increase the revv-limiter and if you get a BHP gain, its too negligible to mention.

Quote:
I may add that has someone tried the standard European map which is 140bhp as against the 130 horses available to us. With 91RON standard across the country (unofficial additives excepted) we should be able to run it. I remember a post somewhere that a person had that map installed and was quite happy with it. This was a long time ago so cannot remember where!
Great suggestion! How would we get Honda's original 140 BHP factory map? That would be the most ideal situation here!

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Originally Posted by kutlee View Post
Go forced ! but again u might have to increase the dia of the exhaust to 2.5? But will be expensive since you are fan of horses from the factory lol!
Yup, rightly said, I'm a huge fan of factory horsepower. And that's got a lot to do with the shoddy modification work you get at most places in Bombay. I've seen way too many perfect cars end up as unreliable pieces of junk post major modifications.

That said, the Civic has huge bolt-on modification support. If (and ONLY IF) I am convinced about the quality of a bolt-on blower, and find the right guy to install it (most probably, down south), I *might* take the plunge. Would need to be really assured of the quality before I do. Reliability is of paramount importance to me (the car being a daily driver + tight schedule).

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Originally Posted by Ricky_63 View Post
I can assure you that your Civic can perform way better, speak to Kiirus, he seems to have done remaps which work in real time.
Is Kiirus any good? Know anyone who's gotten cars tuned by him? Anyways, I hope we have some first-hand forum experiences soon.

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Originally Posted by viper View Post
Both My civic and CR-V were fitted with the ECU's today evening and the initial driving impressions have been very very impressive.
Viper, people on the forum have claimed (and keep claiming even today) major improvements even after getting a stock replacement K&N filter. I wouldn't go by MHP (mental horse power) claims to pass judgement on a remap.

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My Car has become very responsive and the Joy to REV a Honda engine has increased three times. The new RPM limiter is now 7800 and the car goes all the way to 7800 without any problems, It loves to go to that point.
Nice. I am myself keen on increasing the revv limit. Honda's 7,000 cut is way too conservative for this engine. Atleast 7,500 rpms.

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Originally Posted by fuel_addict View Post
Honda claims max torque of 175 N-m. Even if you consider transmission losses, 175 to 110 drop in torque looks to be very steep.
Note that the torque on the dyno graph is displayed in lb-ft. Convert to NM of torque (which is what Honda has used), and you're looking at about 150 NM.
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Old 23rd October 2010, 15:44   #62
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no headers possible, so don't expect too high a gain. Will dyno sometime next week and update.
The headers on the Civic can be changed for free-flowing ones. No doubt that you cant change the head for the individual exhaust gates which are in-built, but the cat integrated header can be changed to a cat-delete free flowing pipe, check out weapon-r website they have an option which comes along with a downpipe.
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Old 23rd October 2010, 17:02   #63
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Is Kiirus any good? Know anyone who's gotten cars tuned by him? Anyways, I hope we have some first-hand forum experiences soon.



@ GTO[/b]

Well, I have spoken to him, when I read a thread about his remaps in Kolkatta.

He assured me that if I do not feel happy with the remap on my Audi, he would reload the stock map & not charge me a penny. Infact he went a step further to say that it is their responsibility if they blow the ECU, they would replace it at their cost with an OE one.

I also spoke to him while he was in Delhi, for remapping my Swift. He plainly refused. Said that they have yet to crack the Swift Petrol, hence refused to do it.

If nothing else, Abhishekh's ethics are in the right place

You speak to the guy & he'll give out whatever details you want prior to getting the car done.

That is MHO about them.




Cheers

Last edited by Ricky_63 : 23rd October 2010 at 17:03.
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Old 23rd October 2010, 17:50   #64
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Well that was what I was told and what I paid for honestly!! Whatever the losses maybe due to bigger tires or dyno run but this clearly shows the remap does not give any "SIGNIFICANT" gain in actual BHP figure.
Sorry about your money going bad, but you are not the only one!

After being in this (and other international car) forums for >6 years, one thing I have realized is that you have to take everything with a pinch of salt. It is very typical of one person recommending something and 10 other people vouching for it. But when you try it, it ends up being a dud. Because most of the time it is a consorted effort to promote a product to an unsuspecting member/customer.
This happens very often on international forums, but unfortunately despite strict vigil of TeamBHP moderators, I am experiencing this here also :(

What's more, sometimes people even try to justify their bad purchases or refuse to realize/accept - heard of Placebo effect??

Anybody trying to justify failure of above Civic remap, is probably only trying to cover up the scam!!! Because minor variations are possible, but not to an extent that one remapped car reads same on same Dyno as another stock car - just because tyres are wider!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Viper, people on the forum have claimed (and keep claiming even today) major improvements even after getting a stock replacement K&N filter. I wouldn't go by MHP (mental horse power) claims to pass judgement on a remap.
Exactly my point and Very well said - Mental horse power... lol

Last edited by GTO : 23rd October 2010 at 18:44. Reason: Fixing quote
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Old 23rd October 2010, 20:48   #65
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Pardon my inexperience people but the fact remains that an engine is a mechanical device which needs air , fuel and a timely spark to work effeciently. And i think Honda would have done that to the best of their vast knoweldge and experience. Can anybody explain to me how by only remaping you can expect 10-15 more bhps from a honda tuned engine everything else remaining the same.
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Old 23rd October 2010, 23:17   #66
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Some facts here, The DYNO test I posted is not MY car, this is the car which was running the REMAP in Mumbai, Also I would refrain from calling the remap as Mental Horse Power, The remap did make a difference, and going by the likes of some very renowed people on the forum, who I am sure know difference between actual and mental HPs, stated that there is a difference in the way the car performs. And even I agree to that. You cant neglect the fact that there was a change, HOW BIG THE CHANGE IS the question I am asking here.

My car was faster than my friends civic running a typhoon kit and a Magnaflow Catback in a straight drag.

In a recent test which a magzine did while featuring my car, My car clocked a time of 10.4 Seconds 0-100 while a stock civic did something around 11.8. This was using some GPS sort of a device, Same device same day. The stock was running on OE 15".

The DYNO figure though came as a surprise, hence I posted this question. I wont call this complete waste of money or a SCAM as others are saying here.
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Old 24th October 2010, 09:36   #67
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I saw some of the posts about Octavias and the like. A blown engine can be remapped easily and given a good power/torque boost. Even here I have my doubts - see the report in the ACI - September 2010 where the Swift (FIAT origin) diesel improvements were marginal at best.

What I will love to see are two things -
1. Remap of the ECU to European specs (140bhp).
2. Tweaking to better torque in the sub-2200rpm range.
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Old 24th October 2010, 10:38   #68
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Originally Posted by cvc2145 View Post
No doubt that you cant change the head for the individual exhaust gates which are in-built
Quote:
but the cat integrated header can be changed to a cat-delete free flowing pipe, check out weapon-r website they have an option which comes along with a downpipe.
You mean something like this (thanks to Psycho for the link). Await further updates.

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Originally Posted by Ricky_63 View Post
That is MHO about them.
Thanks. Look forward to some reports on his remapped cars.

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Originally Posted by ST7677 View Post
but unfortunately despite strict vigil of TeamBHP moderators, I am experiencing this here also
ST7677, believe me, we (Mods & other community members) work very hard to ensure this community calls a spade a spade. If we are convinced of a commercially-influenced review (whether for a car or a product), it is straight away deleted. If the member persists, he is warning / infracted / banned.

If you should see any member unnecessarily promoting a product, or making false claims, please do bring it to my attention. Feel free to PM me at any point in time and I assure that I'll look into it ASAP.

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Originally Posted by Born2Slow View Post
And i think Honda would have done that to the best of their vast knoweldge and experience. Can anybody explain to me how by only remaping you can expect 10-15 more bhps from a honda tuned engine everything else remaining the same.
Manufacturers would factory-tune an engine for fuel-efficiency in India. That's a fact as FE can make or break a car's market success. A good remap can certainly work, by modifying the parameters for max performance.

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Originally Posted by m4ugr8 View Post
And even I agree to that. You cant neglect the fact that there was a change, HOW BIG THE CHANGE IS the question I am asking here.
Million dollar question.

Quote:
In a recent test which a magzine did while featuring my car, My car clocked a time of 10.4 Seconds 0-100 while a stock civic did something around 11.8. This was using some GPS sort of a device, Same device same day. The stock was running on OE 15".
Excellent, so your car is indeed quicker than a stock (considering both were driven by good drivers).

However, both your timings - the modded car as well as the stock - are way off. A stock Civic is way faster in the 0 - 100 than 11.8 seconds. Was the road imperfect / dusty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
A blown engine can be remapped easily and given a good power/torque boost.
True. From what I've seen, forced induction engines usually benefit more from remaps.

Last edited by GTO : 24th October 2010 at 14:22.
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Old 24th October 2010, 14:01   #69
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A non-turbo petrol car cannot see gains from a remap without good engine modifications. Especially with just a drop in air filter and an exhaust without header. Even hondata recommends to have a full air intake kit or a set of headers replaced before a remap. And, even after that, the remap makes only a part difference at most rpms. The major difference it makes is because the VTEC window is shifted to a lower point. Reflash - K20Z3 06/07 Civic Si

The difference in acceleration or response in a remapped NA car is purely felt only because the remap changes the afr at part throttle to make the car run rich even under light acceleration or load. The rich afr gives a better torque with light pedal and thus the car feels responsive. Except for that, at WOT it wouldn't make that much of a difference. I'm assuming that in this remap, it wouldn't make a big difference because the air intake pipe wasn't changed nor was the header. The dyno results given at hondata show almost no increase in torque or power at low rpms even after a remap with intake and exhaust mods. And this is hondata we are talking about!

Without changing the air intake pipe, the MAF sensor values will remain the same, in which case the ECU sees the same amount of air going in. In CAI or SRI, the MAF housings pipe is narrowed for the ecu to see more air going in. While the header in the r18 civic has the cat inbuilt, the engine wouldn't gain much from a free-flow exhaust as the base restriction still lies with it. There would be a decrease in the exhaust gas backpressure AFTER the CAT, but the engine is still seeing pressure before it.

And about the wheels, an increase of around 2 kgs per wheel can decrease around 1bhp of measured power on an inertia roller dyno unless it is compensated for by the operator. When a dyno calculates the power of a car, it sees how much inertia is added to a rotating mass; which includes the crank, flywheel, cluth n pressure plate, transmission, axle, rotors, wheels, tyres and the dyno roller itself. Unless the 17" alloys are lighweight, this could have caused a decrease in the measured power of that car if the alloys and tyres weighed alot more than oem.
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Old 24th October 2010, 16:54   #70
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Agreed the Indian civic may be tuned for mileage. But here i was talking about max power produced by the car at full throttle and 6300 rpm. At this point certainly it will be running best A/F ratios and Spark timing to produce max power. All i am saying is that a remap alone cannot increase the max bhp produced by an engine.
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Old 24th October 2010, 20:14   #71
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Originally Posted by Born2Slow View Post
Agreed the Indian civic may be tuned for mileage. But here i was talking about max power produced by the car at full throttle and 6300 rpm. At this point certainly it will be running best A/F ratios and Spark timing to produce max power. All i am saying is that a remap alone cannot increase the max bhp produced by an engine.
Due to the lower and inconsistent octane rating of petrol sold in the country, Honda India ran a lower-performance fuel/ignition map for the Indian R18 engine.
Due to this, factory output came down from 140 to 130 bhp.

This is a common practice in India.
For eg: The Skoda 1.8 turbo engine in the octavia RS/rider puts out 150bhp here while internationally, factory output was at 180bhp.
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Old 25th October 2010, 00:03   #72
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@ GTO, I am running this one in my car R18 CIVIC EX/LX 06 07 1.8L HEADER/ DP/ EXHAUST MANIFOLD: eBay Motors (item 190422600627 end time Nov-20-10 14:01:02 PST) . Research carefully before you buy one, as the 4-1 is integrated in the head, the header sees alot of heat and pressure and many of them see the header crack/blow apart within a year!
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Old 25th October 2010, 08:26   #73
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If a layman like me sees these two graphs, I would assume that something is wrong with either the dyno or remap or both. We can say for sure which without back to back pulls, even then the variables are there.
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Old 25th October 2010, 08:37   #74
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Since we're having a similar discussion here, I'd love if someone could clarify the terms torque and power to me. Not from a physics perspective, but from a car's perspective.

From what I know,

Torque = Acceleration. More the torque, more the acceleration.

More the power, more is the top speed of a car.

And power and torque are related by:-

P=TV/R

Where P=Power, T=Torque, and V=Linear velocity, and R is the radius being used in calculating torque [I guess that's radius of the tire].

So if an engine is supplying constant torque, then the power being supplied is directly proportional to the current speed of the car. Right ?

Is any of these affected by changing the radius of the tires ? And what is the significance of the RPMs ? Like specifications include x Nm / y RPM torque and similar figures for power ?

And am I right in saying that RPM is the angular velocity of the component of the engine that is supplying power to the transmission, and transmissions are used because engines give best performance/efficiency at specific RPMs only ?
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Old 25th October 2010, 10:33   #75
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Originally Posted by cvc2145 View Post
A non-turbo petrol car cannot see gains from a remap without good engine modifications.
Not significant gains, but in the range of 5 - 8 BHP from a good remap?

Also, since you have experience with piggybacks (Got an AEM F/IC piggyback for my Honda Civic!), what is the gain that one can expect from a non-turbo Civic running a piggyback? When do you plan your visit to Mumbai for the dyno? Remember, KS Motorsports will give you a package deal if you intend to do a lot of runs (to fine-tune your piggyback).

Quote:
the engine wouldn't gain much from a free-flow exhaust as the base restriction still lies with it.
This really sucks. I've seen what a set of mean headers could do (in my OHC Vtec). I don't understand why Honda had to take this route when they know enthusiasts will be part of their customer base.

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Originally Posted by cvc2145 View Post
@ GTO, I am running this one in my car R18 CIVIC EX/LX 06 07 1.8L HEADER/ DP/ EXHAUST MANIFOLD: eBay Motors (item 190422600627 end time Nov-20-10 14:01:02 PST) . Research carefully before you buy one, as the 4-1 is integrated in the head, the header sees alot of heat and pressure and many of them see the header crack/blow apart within a year!
Thanks for the link.
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