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Old 29th October 2010, 15:35   #1
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Default Tuning the Fiat T-Jet engine

I thought I start this thread because I have read a few disturbing rumours about the tuning of the T-Jet engine. If people just go ahead with what the rumours say it can become a very costly exercise.

I have 5 years experience with it and Fiat still finds way to surprise me with their escapades.

First of all, strapping on a bigger turbo usually ends in disaster when you haven't done it to this engine before. There is a lot more to it. The reason for it is the ECU. Or to be more specific the ECUs.

Also I would not advise to use a tuningbox for the Linea T-Jet. The ignition timing for the Indian T-Jet is quite a bit different to the European models due to fuel and missing intercooler.

The engine is capable of extreme tuning. The block can take quite some beating

Extracting more power from the stock unit is quiote simple - as long as professional procedures are being applied.

Anyone thinking that they can do it better with less effort or trying to re-invent the wheel should think twice. I have seen it quite a few times and some people finally sold the car because they could not solve the mess they got themselves into. The ones keeping the car after they indulged themselves into their adventure trying to get it their way had to spend a lot of money to get it sorted.

The point of this thread is to give advise in order to save money by following advise from people that have done it properly and have the experience on a professional level as well as clearing out the content of truth of the hear-say.

To improve the driveability on the T-Jet engine not a lot of investment is needed, but it has to be done precisely as stated.

To go to the extreme will cost considerable amounts of money, but will be worth it for the user and when done properly will not lead to premature break downs.

The stock turbo is good for about 165bhp when combined with air intake revision, exhaust, re-map, some sensors and intercooler, but depends on the ECU version.

The bigger brother of the IHI turbo, which is fitted to the 150bhp versions in Europe is good for about 190bhp and about 280Nm, but needs the above mentioned and the right ECU version.

The internals of the engine are safe to about 250bhp and at least 360Nm.


With other turbos power can be achieved in excess of 350bhp. which has been done with adheering to German homologation regulations, but will be extremely costly.

Before anyone embarks on the journey of the unknown it might turn out cheaper to ask.

Please also note that India is a country with many geographic challenges, which means ambient temperatures and air pressures have got quite some impact on an extremely powerful engine with a very small capacity.

Last edited by CPH : 29th October 2010 at 15:41.
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Old 29th October 2010, 16:26   #2
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What about the gearbox? How much of torque can it take in the stock form?
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Old 29th October 2010, 17:04   #3
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hey CPH,
I have asked this question a couple of times before this (on other threads) but never got an answer. So here's my question:
1. Is the 1.4 Fire in the Linea a DI unit? Or is it the regular petrol
2. If a DI unit, can it be fixed on the 1.6L Torque series engine on the Palio 1.6 Stile?
3. And then ofcourse can a remap and the Turbo + Intercooler shod on the Palio Stile?

Wouldn't it do wonders? Hoping desperately for your answers.

Regards,
Kaustubh
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Old 29th October 2010, 17:29   #4
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Interesting read. So are you going to give us the correct way to bring the Linea T-Jet to pump out 165 Bhp on the stock turbo ??

Would look forward to that



Cheers
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Old 29th October 2010, 17:50   #5
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I personally would start off with an intercooler.
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Old 29th October 2010, 22:18   #6
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Thanks for this CPH - this will help a lot of ambitious folks keep their feet on the ground!
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Old 30th October 2010, 15:04   #7
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Nice thread, CPH. I foresee the T-Jet to evolve as a true enthusiast car. Some questions:

- When Fiat says its turbo is capable of 2.2 bar boost, how much is it actually running?

- Agree with Nitrous. An intercooler should probably be one of the first mods. Question is : Which intercooler? Do you have any recommended brand or website link you can refer to buy online?

- Ditto for any remaps?

For most owners, I don't see the need for a larger turbo. It's just too complicated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaustubh_vaze View Post
Is the 1.4 Fire in the Linea a DI unit?
Nope, the unit is NOT a direct-injection.
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Old 30th October 2010, 15:56   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepakhon View Post
What about the gearbox? How much of torque can it take in the stock form?
Even i have similar questions:
  1. Is the gearbox for T-Jet different than other variants of Linea/Punto?
  2. If No, How much max. torque can it handle?
  3. How does the tuning box for petrol cars like this work?
  4. Does it overfuel the engine to make more power just like the diesel tuning box?
  5. If Yes, will it have smoking problems like Diesel tuning box?
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Old 31st October 2010, 17:10   #9
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What did I let myself into? Lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by deepakhon View Post
What about the gearbox? How much of torque can it take in the stock form?
Unfortunately I can't answer this question for sure because I do not know whtehr the Linea T-Jet uses a Tata derived/specced gearbox or a Fiat unit. If it is a Fiat unit with original Fiat T-Jet spec then it will hold well together at 360Nm, which is what one of the cars I have perpaered is currently running and has done a lot of miles since the conversion. The owner of the car is holding a race license and takes the car regular through its paces on race racks. Also it has to be mentioned that the gearvox is strained due to unfavorable drive shaft angles due to lowering. The gear box is very strong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaustubh_vaze View Post
hey CPH,
I have asked this question a couple of times before this (on other threads) but never got an answer. So here's my question:
1. Is the 1.4 Fire in the Linea a DI unit? Or is it the regular petrol
2. If a DI unit, can it be fixed on the 1.6L Torque series engine on the Palio 1.6 Stile?
3. And then ofcourse can a remap and the Turbo + Intercooler shod on the Palio Stile?

Wouldn't it do wonders? Hoping desperately for your answers.

Regards,
Kaustubh
GTO has answered your first question. The T-Jet engine derived from the original FIRE concept, which was designed long before DI in petrols were thought to be an oprion. The engine is not suitable for changing to DI.

This also answers your second question.

The third question can't be answered directly. The 2 units are very much different in design.

you can get out of the 1.6 a lot of power without a turbo before you even think of nitrous oxide injection.

If you want to turbo the 1.6 professionally (which means it won't reak down every 5 minutes) then you will have to spend about 1.5 to 2 times the amount of what the Palio costs new.

Either tell me in a pm or in a sepaerate thread what you want to do and I try to give you the best possible advise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky_63 View Post
Interesting read. So are you going to give us the correct way to bring the Linea T-Jet to pump out 165 Bhp on the stock turbo ??

Would look forward to that



Cheers
Yes, I will. On my nexttrip to Mumbai I will have a couple of spare ECUs in my luggage, which I want to strap on to one of the Lineas.

Unfortunately, I need an ECU or the file of it to be able to see what ECU version you have and whether we can clone the ECU to the higher level (intercooler version). As soon as we have the ECU data the proper tuning advise can start here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrous View Post
I personally would start off with an intercooler.
Not necessarily. It depends on a few things. I would start with an air intake revision, which means already a lower charge temperature before it reaches the intercooler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
Thanks for this CPH - this will help a lot of ambitious folks keep their feet on the ground!
I hope it does and hope even more so that people will listen to experience. Making mistakes on the T-Jet engine will cost a lot. A new engine will be around 2.5 lakhs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Nice thread, CPH. I foresee the T-Jet to evolve as a true enthusiast car. Some questions:

- When Fiat says its turbo is capable of 2.2 bar boost, how much is it actually running?

- Agree with Nitrous. An intercooler should probably be one of the first mods. Question is : Which intercooler? Do you have any recommended brand or website link you can refer to buy online?

- Ditto for any remaps?

For most owners, I don't see the need for a larger turbo. It's just too complicated.
The T-Jet is running under 1 bar, the 150 around 1.3 and the Abarth SS around 1.5. The engine is high compression.

as the factory does fit an intercooler to the European models it would make senxe to use their stuff. Otherwise intercoolers are available from Italy for acceptable prices.

I am looking at the moment into the re-maps. I will keep you updated. as nobody has re-mapped the Indian version yet I can only advise to be careful on the maps offered. If they are not being dione spedifically for the non intercooler version - stay well clear of them.

And you are absolutely right. fitting a bigger turbo is headache. If it is not done in conjunction with the other mods needed the ECU will either make the engine loose power or it will go into limp mode and in some cases shut down the engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by .anshuman View Post
Even i have similar questions:
  1. Is the gearbox for T-Jet different than other variants of Linea/Punto?
  2. If No, How much max. torque can it handle?
  3. How does the tuning box for petrol cars like this work?
  4. Does it overfuel the engine to make more power just like the diesel tuning box?
  5. If Yes, will it have smoking problems like Diesel tuning box?
1. is answered above.

2. We have not had any problems with the european version at 360Nm in daily use.

3. I would not use a tuning box personally as it is too much of a compromise because of igntion timing problems.

4. A tuning box works basically the same on the Diesle as petrol engines. What the tuning box misses is the ignition timing adaptation. On the chassis dyno you might get similar power results as with a re-map, but the chassis dyno will not show the real results because on most of the chassis dynos the roller mass will not be sufficient to simulate road conditions. So, don't be fooled by chassis dyno comparisons.

5. No it wouldn't. Unburnt petrol will not show up as diesel does. But if you overfuel that heavily, the engine will not run very well. first of all it will start to lose power and the Lambda probe will pick up on it and the ECU will go into yo-yo mode as it does fight between the Lambda reading and the mapping tables. also it it will do long term harm to the turbo seals and in due course bearings (which also applies to Diesel engines at excessive smoking).
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Old 31st October 2010, 17:35   #10
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Default A CPH Stage 1 kit

CPH,
It would be great if you can develop a kit.
I would suggest making designed, engineered, tested and manufactured kit FOR india/ Indian conditions ie. Very high ambient temperatures and very dusty conditions.
Off the top of my head:
  • Intake (along with filter material chosen for indian conditions)
  • Exhaust (along with install instructions with details like bolt tightening sequence)
  • Intercooler (bolt-on size, shroud if necessary for optimising air flow, location, flow to radiator & condenser tested and considered)
  • Conservative engine map (developed at the end with rigorous testing) considering the 91 RON fuel we're getting now in major cities and inconsistent fuel quality.
Do Factor in fuel efficiency as well. Find a sweet spot between performance and fuel economy since we Indians like to have our cake and eat it too.
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Old 31st October 2010, 17:55   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrous View Post
CPH,
It would be great if you can develop a kit.
I would suggest making designed, engineered, tested and manufactured kit FOR india/ Indian conditions ie. Very high ambient temperatures and very dusty conditions.
Off the top of my head:
  • Intake (along with filter material chosen for indian conditions)
  • Exhaust (along with install instructions with details like bolt tightening sequence)
  • Intercooler (bolt-on size, shroud if necessary for optimising air flow, location, flow to radiator & condenser tested and considered)
  • Conservative engine map (developed at the end with rigorous testing) considering the 91 RON fuel we're getting now in major cities and inconsistent fuel quality.
Do Factor in fuel efficiency as well. Find a sweet spot between performance and fuel economy since we Indians like to have our cake and eat it too.
I don't know whether I am allowed to say it (if not then admin should delete or edit this post) but this is all in process of being done (AIR is ready, exhaust problems solved - althoug the least improvement, intercooler kit looked at and re-maps under development).

Regarding the re-maps in general: If they are not improving the fuel economy then look for a better provider. And make sure that they are done on the chassis dyno.
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Old 1st November 2010, 12:13   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH View Post
I don't know whether I am allowed to say it (if not then admin should delete or edit this post) but this is all in process of being done (AIR is ready, exhaust problems solved - althoug the least improvement, intercooler kit looked at and re-maps under development).
As long as you are sharing valuable information, you are permitted. Also, tuners are allowed to showcase a max of 2 cars per month on the forum (i.e. you can create a new thread to show off your tuned car). I'd love to review your remapped car with a dyno run at the end of it.

Once you release your product, do send the relevant information (availability, cost etc.) to p r e s s at team-bhp.com (without spaces and with a @ sign) and I'll be sure to release it on the forum. We frequently receive press releases from local tuners & part manufacturers. Whatever we think will add value to the forum gets a new thread.
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Old 1st November 2010, 14:17   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
As long as you are sharing valuable information, you are permitted. Also, tuners are allowed to showcase a max of 2 cars per month on the forum (i.e. you can create a new thread to show off your tuned car). I'd love to review your remapped car with a dyno run at the end of it.

Once you release your product, do send the relevant information (availability, cost etc.) to p r e s s at team-bhp.com (without spaces and with a @ sign) and I'll be sure to release it on the forum. We frequently receive press releases from local tuners & part manufacturers. Whatever we think will add value to the forum gets a new thread.
Thank you GTO, for clearing this up for me.

At this point I would like to take the opportunity to explain how I tick. I am a professional and have learned a lot of tricks. I am happy to share information. I have told people how to design their own AIRs, which is at this moment in time my core business. If anyone wants to know then feel free to ask. But not in this thread please as it is devoted to the Linea T-Jet engine.

Also I would like to mention that I will judge competitors products and when they are a con I will tell. At the same time I will also give credit to competitors products when credit is due. I speak my mind for the benefit of the consumer. Money is not the driving force in my businee. It is quality and with it come the earnings and I respect my customers and fellow bhpians and so should other tuners.

Anyway, going back to the T-Jet engine. The factory air intake is very restricted. The rather small IHI turbo has got to work quite hard to overcome the restrictions. Removing the factory AIR and replacing it with a much shorter and much more straight AIR gave us on the European version (with intercooler) instantly 6bhp more on most T-Jets. Additonal effect will be a much quicker spooling up of the turbo, which showed in a much improved low rpm torque delivery. This is why I commented on Nitrous' post that I would not necessarily start with an intercooler. The AIR is cheaper than an intercooler alone. And the pipes will cost quite a bit too. Apart from it it will be necessary to upgrade the AIR in any case to get the best out of the engine.

When going through the headache of fitting a cooler it makes sense to look at either type of cooler. India has got many hot places, which might make the charge cooler the better option than an intercooler.

Obviously the intercooler, hoses and pipes are available from Fiat, but be warned the engine bay layout is different to the European models, which means we have to check first, whether this is a viable option. I am working on this right now and will you guys updatedate you on this.
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Old 1st November 2010, 14:57   #14
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Found this thread on the FIAT Forum:

Quote:
Hi this may also be true for other countries too, but it seems FIAT saved money by not fitting intercoolers to Palio in india. by just fitting an intercooler you can add 20bhp to your Turbo Palio
most probably he meant T-jet Linea.

Tuning: turbo Palio tuning in india - The FIAT Forum

i have added a link back to this thread (and T-Jet Review) on the FIAT Forum.

Last edited by planet_rocker : 1st November 2010 at 15:00.
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Old 1st November 2010, 15:13   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planet_rocker View Post
Found this thread on the FIAT Forum:



most probably he meant T-jet Linea.

Tuning: turbo Palio tuning in india - The FIAT Forum

i have added a link back to this thread (and T-Jet Review) on the FIAT Forum.
Most of the people in the UK do not even know what a Palio looks like and the Linea isn't sold either over there.

But it would not be very hard work to turn a Palio into a 1.4 T-Jet. With the superior power to weight ratio it would be an animal especially after giving it a bit of an 'engine treatment'.
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