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Old 1st November 2010, 13:58   #16
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Default Got to meet some amazing guys

>>>

This was an event that I was really waiting for and am extremely happy to be a part of. Thank you GTO and Rehaan for organising this. It was an eye opener for me.

Sorry that I and Sprucegoose got held up.

Re. GTO's comments on the Jetta, I am curious to know as to why it could not be redlined. Also, I imagine a 'smaller' chassis dyno might have been more sensitive in sensing the power and the torque at lower revs ( starting from say 1k), as diesels ramp up their torque earlier vis-avis petrol engines.

[By a smaller dyno I mean a dyno with a lower mass, translating into lower inertia : correct me if I am wrong GTO, Rehaan]

I eagerly await the final report from KSM. Hearing akshay on improving the power and the torque with an ECU remap or an add on box has given me ideas- I need to pick his brains and that of GTO and Rehaan to arrive at a decision, depending of course, on the state of my (withered) wallet.

All in all a fantastic meet. Got to know some amazingly insightful petrolheads.

We should have more meets, and as GTO suggested, with a dinner thrown in.

Regards, drive safe
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Old 1st November 2010, 14:06   #17
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Verrry interesting thread. Are there any other dynos in the country? Somewhere southside. While I was born in mumbai I haven't travelled that side in years and *sigh* am not 'ALLOWED' to drive dads car out of bangy! *dont ask*

but I'm curious a map only from 4k. I always thought that a torque ramp up is what defines the way an engine is. I.e. Free and flat like an rx7 and the wankel or tight and taut a la muscle car. I think I should move this question to one of the other threads on the dyno. So having exactly what the engine does from idle is ideal. Which is why you do the rev up to top gear and floor it from low revs there. But is this belief right?
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Old 1st November 2010, 14:09   #18
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Originally Posted by valhallen.282 View Post
Verrry interesting thread. Are there any other dynos in the country? Somewhere southside. While I was born in mumbai I haven't travelled that side in years and *sigh* am not 'ALLOWED' to drive dads car out of bangy! *dont ask*
There are a few dynos in the south, at Coimbatore and Bangalore. Check out the one at Red Rooster Racing, it's pretty awesome.
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Old 1st November 2010, 14:39   #19
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Added a wicked shot of Netarchie's carputer system when on the dyno, to the opening post. 159 kph, and she went on to 175 (or was it 185?).
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Old 1st November 2010, 15:01   #20
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Originally Posted by Born2Slow View Post
Congratulations on this excellent thread always wanted to see something like this. What i would like to add is that when we compare torques of diesels with petrol we should not forget that they produce max power at lower rpm so will have taller gearing so wont produce that significant a difference of torque on wheel as we see on paper.
For example the VW produces max power at 4000 rpm so comparing its torque with a similar powered petrol which produces max power at 6000 rpm the diesels torque figure will get divided by 1.5 if we are to compares apples to apples.
You are right with the ratio and that the torque on the wheels matters. But what you have to consider too is the spread of torque, which makes the Diesel engine so much better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by issigonis View Post
>>>

This was an event that I was really waiting for and am extremely happy to be a part of. Thank you GTO and Rehaan for organising this. It was an eye opener for me.

Sorry that I and Sprucegoose got held up.

Re. GTO's comments on the Jetta, I am curious to know as to why it could not be redlined. Also, I imagine a 'smaller' chassis dyno might have been more sensitive in sensing the power and the torque at lower revs ( starting from say 1k), as diesels ramp up their torque earlier vis-avis petrol engines.

[By a smaller dyno I mean a dyno with a lower mass, translating into lower inertia
: correct me if I am wrong GTO, Rehaan]

I eagerly await the final report from KSM. Hearing akshay on improving the power and the torque with an ECU remap or an add on box has given me ideas- I need to pick his brains and that of GTO and Rehaan to arrive at a decision, depending of course, on the state of my (withered) wallet.

All in all a fantastic meet. Got to know some amazingly insightful petrolheads.

We should have more meets, and as GTO suggested, with a dinner thrown in.

Regards, drive safe
A lower mass would distort the results even more. As most of the people are only interested in the higher rpm range the graph is only set for the higher range. It is easy to set the cut off point anywhere along the rpm range. You just have to ask Karan to do this for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FastLove View Post
It is a ECU Remap from Home: Piasini Engineering Kiirus is the local dealer for the same.


I will be checking on the clutch this week and look forward to meet you guys again.
Thanks for the info FastLove. I wonder whether you could do me a favour and pm me a picture of the ECU in your car and tell me whether it is a Bosch ME 7.6.3 or one of the ME 9xxx.

@ GTO - I would like to take part in one (or more when I have sorted my base in Mumbai) of the seesions when I am back to Mumbai and am happy to bring some goodies along.

I won't have my car with me nut I know someone who wants to bring his car along.

Last edited by GTO : 2nd November 2010 at 10:15. Reason: No offers to members, not even for trial / demo please
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Old 1st November 2010, 16:47   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH View Post
You are right with the ratio and that the torque on the wheels matters. But what you have to consider too is the spread of torque, which makes the Diesel engine so much better.
I was under the impression that petrol engines have better torque spread. Diesel torque peaking early and then trailing away. Anyway lot of people quote diesel torques in isolation giving it an unfair advantage over petrol engines as usually the figures are quite high due to low max power rpms.
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Old 1st November 2010, 18:09   #22
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Originally Posted by CPH View Post

A lower mass would distort the results even more. As most of the people are only interested in the higher rpm range the graph is only set for the higher range. It is easy to set the cut off point anywhere along the rpm range. You just have to ask Karan to do this for you.
>>> Please explain.
I would expect people to be curious about the power (and torque) figures not only at the high rpms, but also at the lower end-after all driveability at low revs, in low gears is an important feature for all cars, for city driving. This is especially true of driving in Indian cities. A broad band of torque is a big plus, as is evident in the graphs of almost all the cars dyno'ed here.

Regards
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Old 1st November 2010, 21:02   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by issigonis View Post
GTO's comments on the Jetta, I am curious to know as to why it could not be redlined.
That's VWs electronics preserving your engine. Diesels hate the redline - much more so than petrols - precisely why, it was upshifting immediately on the rpm entering the red zone. IIRC, your redline starts at 4,400? The needle barely nudged that number and upshifted, in manual and S mode both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pranavt View Post
There are a few dynos in the south, at Coimbatore and Bangalore. Check out the one at Red Rooster Racing, it's pretty awesome.
Red Rooster allows non-customers to use their dyno? How much do they charge per run? They have two right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH View Post
@ GTO - I would like to take part in one (or more when I have sorted my base in Mumbai) of the seesions when I am back to Mumbai and am happy to bring some goodies along.

I won't have my car with me nut I know someone who wants to bring his car along.
Sure thing, CPH. Drop me a PM when you're ready and we'll co-ordinate something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Born2Slow View Post
I was under the impression that petrol engines have better torque spread.
Petrols have a wider usable band. However, us regular joes spend 99% of our life <2,500 rpms. That's where diesels rule.

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Originally Posted by issigonis View Post
....not only at the high rpms
Boys will remain boys
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Old 1st November 2010, 21:52   #24
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Wow, this is pretty neat information.

Would love to see the curves for regular Punto MJD and the 90bhp version.
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Old 2nd November 2010, 00:10   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Born2Slow View Post
I was under the impression that petrol engines have better torque spread. Diesel torque peaking early and then trailing away. Anyway lot of people quote diesel torques in isolation giving it an unfair advantage over petrol engines as usually the figures are quite high due to low max power rpms.
Most of the Diesel engines have a rather long stroke, which means that they achieve higher piston speeds than same capacity petrol engines at the same rpm. This in turn reduces rpm against petrols and makes it even worse due to rather long conrods.

As torque is the driving force for acceleration the Diesel engines have got an advantge over petrols. How the Diesel torque curve spreads depends on quitea few parameters. When designed without silly cost restrictions the Diesel torque curve can be rising extremely steep from tickover and maintain very high levels all the way through.

Budget constraints and consumption requirements ket the designers often resort to samll turbos that deliver at low rpm and run out of puff from mid range. VGTs can even this out, which is the reason why they are gertting more popular. Sequential turbo arrangements or VW TSI go one step further.

Also note that you can get from a 1.9l turbo Diesel in excess of 600Nm (We had one running as a road car). With a petrol engine of this size it would not be possible if it were to last and it would need special fuels to prevent detonation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by issigonis View Post
>>> Please explain.
I would expect people to be curious about the power (and torque) figures not only at the high rpms, but also at the lower end-after all driveability at low revs, in low gears is an important feature for all cars, for city driving. This is especially true of driving in Indian cities. A broad band of torque is a big plus, as is evident in the graphs of almost all the cars dyno'ed here.

Regards
You want mass to simulate the weight of the car. If the mass is too low on the roller the engine will not reach full load conditions, which would not represent the real accleration strain.

It would show flawed figures. Also it might not show up mapping weaknesses that will show under real driving conditions. There is much more to it, but it would lead to far in this topic and possibly would end up being completely off topic. But feel free to raise the problems in a separate topic.
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Old 3rd November 2010, 12:30   #26
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There wouldn't be a difference in the BHP rating, if only the transmission was upgraded.

Awesome. Hopefully my K&N Typhoon is in and we'll run the Civic together.
Your right, it wouldnt make a difference to the crank power. How stupid of me. But if a pre-facelift V6 was dynoed it certainly would show less power on the dyno, owing to the earlier transmission being less efficient.

I curious to see how much the Typhoon adds to your Civic.
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Old 3rd November 2010, 12:50   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
That's VWs electronics preserving your engine. Diesels hate the redline - much more so than petrols - precisely why, it was upshifting immediately on the rpm entering the red zone. IIRC, your redline starts at 4,400? The needle barely nudged that number and upshifted, in manual and S mode both.



Petrols have a wider usable band. However, us regular joes spend 99% of our life <2,500 rpms. That's where diesels rule.



Boys will remain boys
>>>
GTO,

Will find out from the VW chaps on the electronics bit.

I've never really redlined it - so can't say.

Even when cruising at 120+ kmph on highways, I think it stays typically around 2k revs, or even lower. Only when accelerating uphill with load does it push to 2.5 k revs plus - the rush of torque is pretty satisfying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH View Post
Most of the Diesel engines have a rather long stroke, Sequential turbo arrangements or VW TSI go one step further.

Also note that you can get from a 1.9l turbo Diesel in excess of 600Nm (We had one running as a road car). With a petrol engine of this size it would not be possible if it were to last and it would need special fuels to prevent detonation.



You want mass to simulate the weight of the car.. I but it would lead to far in this topic and possibly would end up being completely off topic. But feel free to raise the problems in a separate topic.
>>>

CPH,

Your remarks are insightful.

Can you share how a 1.9 litre TDI ( PD or CRDI?) achieved 600Nm plus? That's what the 3.0 litre V6 diesel XF S with a sequential turbo generates- humungous!

Yes, I'd like to understand the dynamics of the dyno a little better- please start a thread if you can.

Regards, drive safe
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Old 3rd November 2010, 13:09   #28
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Originally Posted by issigonis View Post
>>>
CPH,

Your remarks are insightful.

Can you share how a 1.9 litre TDI ( PD or CRDI?) achieved 600Nm plus? That's what the 3.0 litre V6 diesel XF S with a sequential turbo generates- humungous!

Yes, I'd like to understand the dynamics of the dyno a little better- please start a thread if you can.

Regards, drive safe
To start with I want to say, that it wasn't a walk in the park. And it was an ongoing project for quite a while. To be more precise it was stretched over nearly 2 years. We were on the hunt of breaking through the 300bhp barrier when to much methan was injected leading to the end of the engine cracking a piston. I don't think I need to tell what the outcome was.

Wit the VW units that have a specific power output below 130bhp it is not possible to achieve it because the structural integrity of the block is weaker.

Pistons and conrods need changing, water injection (methan injection will help further) added, change to charge cooler, hybrid turbo, sensor changes, cam shaft, porting and flowing, air, complete exhaust change including the turbo manifold, sports cat and endless hours of re-mapping on the dyno.
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Old 3rd November 2010, 14:35   #29
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Guys,
Purely OT,
From looking at the snaps, by any chance is KSM located in the Karfule Petrol bunk in Ballard Pier?
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Old 3rd November 2010, 15:02   #30
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Guys,
Purely OT,
From looking at the snaps, by any chance is KSM located in the Karfule Petrol bunk in Ballard Pier?
>>>
f1fan,

The attached petrol pump is a BPCL one. Didn't check the name of the pump as it was dark by the time I reached.

Reason 1 : It took me three(3) hours to reach here from Mahim.
Reason 2 : One hour waiting for Sprucegoose to pick up his modded OHC from Mahim. Two hours to travel.
Reason 3 : Two hours to travel because Sprucegoose's OHC died twice ( conked master fuse) ; he took the NHC instead

The address of KSM is 42 Kamani Marg (the old Nicol Road I think), Ballard Estate.
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