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Old 4th March 2010, 19:49   #16
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Thanks Rehan for excellent detailed write up and a very informative thread. Learnt so many thing for this single thread!


Quote:
He just sold a 125bhp/985kg City to pick up a 132bhp/1210kg Civic. Oouch!!!
Do you think he is going to keep his Civic in "STOCK" condition. that 132 might become 150 with basic mods

Quote:
Poor Avinash, he's having to split the ownership with GTO and Rehaan. LOL
ROTFL, even though Avinash has got the car, no wonder it will be called GTO v-TEC for long time

@GTO,

You are missing V-TEC! aren'tyou? Any news on Civic, when is it coming?

EIDT:

Quote:
What we forgot to consider that day was the altitude diff. An engine loses upto 3% of its power for every 1000ft evelation above sea level. So even if our cars were tuned for the same power output your car in Bbay would still be producing around 6.6% more power than my car.
Shan2nu,

what is the reason for this?

Last edited by recshenoy : 4th March 2010 at 19:51.
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Old 4th March 2010, 20:08   #17
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very informative thread, it would be interesting to see comparisons before and after performance mods.

Spike

OT- what is the charge that one has to pay for a similar service
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Old 4th March 2010, 20:16   #18
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Thats bcoz the density of air reduces with elevation. Since there is less air available as the atltitude increases, the engine produces less power.

Altitude bhp loss calculator - http://www.wallaceracing.com/braking-hp.php

If this VTEC was dyno tested in Blore (3000ft above sea level), it would produce 96whp.

Shan2nu

Last edited by Shan2nu : 4th March 2010 at 20:20.
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Old 4th March 2010, 20:28   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post

Poor Avinash, he's having to split the ownership with GTO and Rehaan. LOL

Shan2nu
That's what I was wondering, this was always GTO's car

I am Abhinav by the way
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Old 4th March 2010, 20:36   #20
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This is a superb thread. Thanks Rehaan and GTO.

I miss my OHC! She was black and in immaculate condition. Believe me when the new owner drove her off I had a lump in my throat and the wife had her eyes brimming with tears.

Cheers!
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Old 4th March 2010, 20:42   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abhi1309 View Post
Rehaan, I love your car...
*cough* Thanks, but please pass that on to Avinash_m!

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Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
Even if we consider 15% losses, thats a good 125bhp@6600 and 146nm@5400 at the crank.
Shan, this 15% is still such a vague figure for me. I've seen quite a few people using 10-12% for FWDs.

On one hand this car is and has been running full synthetic, on the other hand, its run 70k+km (and still has the stock clutch ?? not sure).

Like i said, personally i'm only going to try and use the dyno for relative comparisons, as well as something else that we don't get from standard power figures = the full power-delivery/drivability curve!

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Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
..What we forgot to consider that day was the altitude diff....
That aside, there might also be a slight difference, especially at low RPMS. But once again, we are only speculating.

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Originally Posted by alpha1 View Post
Will the torque / rpm characteristic of an engine change with the load encountered?
Good question!!

I would say YES - especially for cars with electronic fuel injection.
Since the load sensor does have a say on the fuel maps it will make a difference if im not mistaken.

On the dyno, that would equate to either :
1) Using a different gear for the pull (eg. going up a slope in 2nd or 3rd)
2) Using a different weight roller (ie more/less mass to rotate)


I'd be interested to hear others' viewpoints on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
So whatever is causing this slippage is creating a difference of 5.6% between engine and wheel rpm.

So does this indicate that another 5.6% in addition to the 15% is being lost in the process, due to slipage?
Will reply to this in a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by recshenoy View Post
Learnt so many thing for this single thread!
Thanks. I think thats the best compliment for a thread in the tech-stuff section.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
..it would be interesting to see comparisons before and after performance mods.
Stay tuned

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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
...OT- what is the charge that one has to pay for a similar service
A single run is currently quoted at 3,000/- Rs, and better deals are given for those who plan to use it more often.

If you see KS Motorsport's website, they have some additional offers like free first run, discounted second, etc : Welcome to KS MOTORSPORT --->

cya
R

Last edited by Technocrat : 4th March 2010 at 21:21.
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Old 4th March 2010, 20:48   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abhi1309 View Post
That's what I was wondering, this was always GTO's car

I am Abhinav by the way
Ohhh, so you bought his car. You know i would always to GTO's garage (on the web site that is) and drool looking at the City. Nice catch! 120+ Bhp?? Insane man!
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Old 4th March 2010, 21:08   #23
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Brilliant thread !! Wish we had a dyno here in Delhi / Gurgaon. What'd be the cost of setting one up ?? Any pointers ?

I'd love to put my Swift to test one a dyno.

Great going. BTW what is the reading on a stock OHC Vtech ?

A dyno run would be a good parameter for setting apart "tooners" & "tuners"








Cheers
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Old 4th March 2010, 21:13   #24
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Hi,
Could not follow the explanation on clutch slip. AFAIK, a clutch should not slip even when transmitting way above the engines rated peak torque.

I think the tach is underreading. Normally a tyre swells up with speed, increasing its rolling dia. That should cause an error in the other direction.

Gearboxes are normally pretty efficient. The biggest unknown is the inertia of the drivetrain, clutch, and esp wheel/ tyre/ rotors (Advantage bikes here). This inertia is added to the inertia "seen" by the engine. These do not rob power as in dissipating it, but will have the same effect as added weight in a car. BUT it can be more than guestimated and factored out. I wonder why it is not done.

Sutripta
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Old 4th March 2010, 21:31   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjalihal View Post
Ohhh, so you bought his car. You know i would always to GTO's garage (on the web site that is) and drool looking at the City. Nice catch! 120+ Bhp?? Insane man!
Yeah, he is the 4th guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
I realised this when i took my car to Mlore. It felt pretty quick compared to how it perfomed in Hubli
Must be the acid fumes from MRPL. But this is scaring me. Does that mean my GV will under perform further once I take it to Bangalore? Hmm, mostly I won't take it then.
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Old 4th March 2010, 22:48   #26
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Extremely interesting to know that someone tested the actual bhp of the car. I have always wondered how many bhp a car LOSES over time. Say after 50k kms and after 100k kms. Primarily because my 2001 zen feels very under-powered(and i am only comparing to other zens and santros only ).

And i should shift from Bangalore. Cant believe i am losing 9% power

But on serious note, though i was aware of the reason that cars lose power at higher altitudes, this does seem somewhat on higher side ..3% for 1000 feet. Is it like commonly accepted number ??
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Old 4th March 2010, 23:12   #27
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AWSOMME writeup Rehaan!! Really appreciate the attention to detail. I actually missed out when the car was being strapped up due to the unscheduled ATM visit.

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Originally Posted by balenopower View Post
Someone should get a stage 1 baleno and a palio GTX on the roller as well..
Not sure about a baleno but will try and convince my brother to put his Palio 1.6,if we have a facility in blore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOS Power View Post
Especially since the Greddy headers take care of the bottom and mid range and the VTEC takes care of the top end (GTO & Avinash correct me if i'm wrong).

GTO, hats off for refurbishing the car in that shape till u sold it and Avinash, you have a stonker in your hands (not that i need to remind you of that).
Thanks NOS_Power!!
I do feel the difference the Greddy's make coz I'd driven a 2003 spec stock VTEC (while I was on the lookout) and had noticed this lack of bottom end grunt.Mine however pulls cleanly even @1000-1200rpm in 3rd!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
So does this indicate that another 5.6% in addition to the 15% is being lost in the process, due to slipage?
Shan2nu
This should be interesting?!The car is still running the stock clutch (albeit it has become hard) but isn't slipping AFAIK.We still have to figure out the wheel size (posted in my ownership thread) dependency on these figures as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
Poor Avinash, he's having to split the ownership with GTO and Rehaan. LOL
Shan2nu


Quote:
Originally Posted by rjalihal View Post
Ohhh, so you bought his car. You know i would always to GTO's garage (on the web site that is) and drool looking at the City. Nice catch! 120+ Bhp?? Insane man!
Me too..!!Ever since I started browsing t-bhp as a non-member,this car and it's story was always on the hitlist. Finally, I managed to get it..!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
*cough* Thanks, but please pass that on to Avinash_m!
Thanks Rehaan..!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
(and still has the stock clutch ?? not sure).
Yes it is.

Cheers
Avinash
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Old 5th March 2010, 00:02   #28
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I did a dyno test for my 2002 OHC vtec a few weeks back and got a power output with a loss of roughly 15%. What however worries me is a major dip in the torque curve around the 3.5k RPM and one that rises thereafter. So, basically I have a nice M shaped torque curve that does not seem right for some reason and one that adversely affects driveability. I have the same mods as GTO's car namely an air filter (Ractive), headers and free flow. The free flow may not be in the best of shape but I am really surprised that there is so much power difference.
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Old 5th March 2010, 11:17   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman7 View Post
@GTO - Don't you wish the City was still with you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnhegde View Post
GTO : Missing the sweet V-Tec ? That car is a sure head turner.
Sure miss it, but I think I'm ready to move on to the next level of Honda's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by balenopower View Post
Someone should get a stage 1 baleno and a palio GTX on the roller as well.
I do hope this thread kickstarts a movement where Bombay + Pune enthusiasts regularly get their car's dyno'ed at KS Motorsports. No better way to gauge the benefits of performance mods. Also, for my next car, what we'll do is dyno it at each stage (i.e. when stock, then upgrade 1, upgrade 2 etc.).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
He just sold a 125bhp/985kg City to pick up a 132bhp/1210kg Civic. Oouch!!!
You think the Civic's going to stay stock . Plus, it'll have better dynamics, stability and brakes to match the performance. The after-market mod support for the Civic is stupendous and one of the reasons why I opted for the car.

BTW, the Civic is 130 BHP (132 PS).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
So does this indicate that another 5.6% in addition to the 15% is being lost in the process, due to slipage?

Coz be it wheel spin or clutch slip, the power being transfered from the engine to the ground is being affected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
On one hand this car is and has been running full synthetic, on the other hand, its run 70k+km (and still has the stock clutch ?? not sure).
Yup, Vtec's running the factory-fittted OEM clutch. Lets consider a life of 1.0 lakh kms at best. At 75,000 kms, it's 60 - 75% worn out already. I'm willing to bet that a new clutch will increase that number by another horse or two.

Quote:
Shan, this 15% is still such a vague figure for me. I've seen quite a few people using 10-12% for FWDs.
Agreed. But even 10 - 12% is like 118 - 120 BHP!! That's simply fantastic for a 75K km mildly modded car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baluundertaker View Post
I have always wondered how many bhp a car LOSES over time.
My faith in perfectly timed oil changes, using the best quality of oil, has just multiplied by x number of times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by megazoid View Post
I did a dyno test for my 2002 OHC vtec a few weeks back and got a power output with a loss of roughly 15%.
Super! What was the exact power output, in BHP terms?
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Old 5th March 2010, 11:32   #30
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A very very interesting thread, just rated it 5 stars! Wish we had a similar setup here in the NCR for enthusiasts to test their cars.

And Rush, Congrats on the Civic though its like a part of the Moderator team has moved on with your OHC Vtec having changed hands
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