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Old 19th March 2011, 16:22   #16
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Default Re: Red Rooster Power Drive for my Fiat Palio 1.6 - Advise and opinions sought

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The reason the FPR is needed is that the DIA provides some much cold air to the engine, that with the stock pump you are unable to compensate with the fueling. Adding an FPR will ensure that you do not run too lean.
The pump will not do any compensation, becasue it cannot. It is just a pump after all. But your car's ECU does all the compensation. Fitting an FPR only for a CAI system is an absolute overkill and in my opinion not needed at all.

Once your's car's ECU sees that the engine is getting colder air, it will automatically enrich the mixture. You dont need an FPR to do that.

I ran a stock FPR on my TC'ed Swift till 5 pounds of boost and it held beautifully. I only got an FPR later when i upped the boost to 8 pounds and got bigger injectors.

Last edited by vikram_d : 19th March 2011 at 16:50.
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Old 19th March 2011, 16:41   #17
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Default Re: Red Rooster Power Drive for my Fiat Palio 1.6 - Advise and opinions sought

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I got the BMC DIA from RRP and am extremly happy with the performance. The reason the FPR is needed is that the DIA provides some much cold air to the engine, that with the stock pump you are unable to compensate with the fueling. Adding an FPR will ensure that you do not run too lean.

The good part of RRP is the work quality and Leela tuning your car himself....
Sorry, but this is an absolute load of nonsense. The fuel pumps on the Palio are around 3.5 bars and do flactuate during operation. Getting a fuel pressure regulaotr set higher will only allow the flactuations to interfere with the injection system and make the engine run unclean. The fuel pump in the car is designed to runn a lot more fuel as it iis found in other Fiat models with much more power. the extra amount of air the filter DIA might be flowing is so little that the ECU easily can adjust withing the allowed window. All that needs doing to optimise is to re-map the ECU. I am doing this kind of work for a living only for 31 years and know a bit about it.

The DIA is not an air intake revision. It is a filter lelement. to get out the best you need correct hosing as well as the right positioning.
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Old 19th March 2011, 18:52   #18
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Default Re: Red Rooster Power Drive for my Fiat Palio 1.6 - Advise and opinions sought

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Originally Posted by killjoy View Post
I got the BMC DIA from RRP and am extremly happy with the performance. The reason the FPR is needed is that the DIA provides some much cold air to the engine, ...
Have you driven it with and without the FPR to tell if its helping?
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Old 19th March 2011, 22:52   #19
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Default Re: Red Rooster Power Drive for my Fiat Palio 1.6 - Advise and opinions sought

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5 bar - maximum :( leela has thought of an option to reduce it but i need to find time to go there
What!? Thats insanely high!
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Old 19th March 2011, 23:11   #20
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Default Re: Red Rooster Power Drive for my Fiat Palio 1.6 - Advise and opinions sought

well guys, hold your comments, i am not the expert here, i am telling you what was done on my car.

so, to get back to reality, my car without the FPR was showing a reading of 17:1 or something in that range, after the FPR dropeed to 13.xx:1. These are readings I have seen. Unfortunately, I think Leela is one of the better tuners around and I do not want to argue what I dont know with I am being told. I will take Leela's word for it. I am driving with the FPR since the DIA went it and I am extremly happy with the car. Topic closed for me.
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Old 20th March 2011, 04:05   #21
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Default Re: Red Rooster Power Drive for my Fiat Palio 1.6 - Advise and opinions sought

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Originally Posted by killjoy View Post
well guys, hold your comments, i am not the expert here, i am telling you what was done on my car.

so, to get back to reality, my car without the FPR was showing a reading of 17:1 or something in that range, after the FPR dropeed to 13.xx:1. These are readings I have seen. Unfortunately, I think Leela is one of the better tuners around and I do not want to argue what I dont know with I am being told. I will take Leela's word for it. I am driving with the FPR since the DIA went it and I am extremly happy with the car. Topic closed for me.
You have to be very careful in what you are saying as things can be rather misleading to others.

you might have seen some figures, but they have no relevance technically because you have no reference points..

The AFR is not constant throughout the rpm range nor throught the load levels. At low loads you can have anything from 19:1 to 14.5:1. This is regrdless whether you have a FPR or not.

At higher loads the AFR will be on n/a cars down to 12.5 before you start loosing power except in the warm running phase were in can go as rich as 8:1.

On turbo applications you can have at extreme loads between 11:1 and 8:1, but the latter only at outrageous power levels.

There is a lot more to it apart from what already mentioned.
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Old 20th March 2011, 12:00   #22
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Default Re: Red Rooster Power Drive for my Fiat Palio 1.6 - Advise and opinions sought

sorry, though i said my last post, to clarify, both of the above are at full throtte measure.
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Old 20th March 2011, 14:27   #23
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Default Re: Red Rooster Power Drive for my Fiat Palio 1.6 - Advise and opinions sought

This is how a typical AFR graph looks like. It is a stock map taken on a full throttle run. The type of rolling road is much better suited for AFR evaluation than a hub dyno due to the mass of the dyno wheels, which guarantee a full looad under full throttle.

The AFR under 2000rpm is very lean, which is normal. Over 4500rpm it is getting ver rich for a N/a rngine. The manufacturer has chosen it this way to protect the engine from overheating at longer full throttle, full load driving. In the second grapph you can see much better the effects of the overfueling at high rpm. The grapph tails off far to quickly for the hardware set-up. A slight fuel reduction will give a bit more power at top end.
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Red Rooster Power Drive for my Fiat Palio 1.6 - Advise and opinions sought-graph-n578ngb-61bhp-59ftlb-20090426-182126.jpg  

Red Rooster Power Drive for my Fiat Palio 1.6 - Advise and opinions sought-graph-n578ngb-61bhp-59ftlb-v2-20090426-182126.jpg  

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Old 20th July 2011, 13:52   #24
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Default Re: Red Rooster Power Drive for my Fiat Palio 1.6 - Advise and opinions sought

All,

Thanks for all the discussion and advise. Been a long time and I am back with some updates.

Below are the mods on my car now:
- Engine Grooved, porting and polishing of heads by the Master Mr.Somender Singh himself (SOMENDER-SINGH.com - Home)
- Power Drive Package from Red Rooster Performance (SANS the FPR!!!), that includes the headers, BMC DIA and the FFE.

Car feels excellent now and people can hear me coming from quite a distance now and give way immediately.

The differences I noticed after the mods

- After just the grooving
Pros
- Noticeable increase in low-end torque (peppier)
- Total absence of knocking and pinging
- A small increase in mileage (around 1-2 kmpl)
- Supposed to have reduced the toxicity of the emission (yet to check)
Cons
- Decrease in Top Speed (earlier used to go all the way upto the 200 kmph mark on the VEGLIA odo, which I know is pretty accurate after comparing it with my GPS). Now it tops out at 160 in 5th gear and refuses to rev beyond the 4700 rpm range. ANY THOUGHTS?

-After the RRP powerdrive
- SOUND (Music to my ears)!!!
- Slight increase in acceleration and the rate of climb of RPMs

Yet to test the top speed (but I doubt if it has changed), will update.
Mileage - yet to test (will do a liters per 100 Km test first and then the full to full later), will update.

PICS, coming soon.

Please comment and provide your thoughts on the mods and suggest if there are any innovative "TESTS" to check the improvement/deficiency post mods.

Also pass on your valuable comment on the decrease in the top-speed.
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Old 1st August 2011, 16:40   #25
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Default Re: Red Rooster Power Drive for my Fiat Palio 1.6 - Advise and opinions sought

@Girileo81 - Wow man!! Did you actually groove the 1.6 head? I was actually looking forward to do it but could not since some parts were not available (head gasket et al).
Test - Try starting the car from stand still in 3rd gear and it should do so without any complaint.
I did it on a Padmini a few years back and rejetted to a smaller jet (92 perhaps), and she used to climb the Bor Ghat with 5 people on board and A/C ON, and used to give the Innova's a run for their money (but only during the climb). The torque generated with the groove is just awesome. I tried smaller jets, she used to run, but used to choke.
Also your fuel efficiency will go up.

Can you post a few pics from the grooving process? I am interested!
OT: I will be grooving my Thunderbird in the next couple of weeks and go for a thinner asbestos only packing (1/2 mm reduction in thickness) and she should run well.

Regards,
Kaustubh
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Old 17th December 2012, 16:26   #26
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Default Re: Red Rooster Power Drive for my Fiat Palio 1.6 - Advise and opinions sought

Quote:
Originally Posted by Girileo81 View Post
- Decrease in Top Speed (earlier used to go all the way upto the 200 kmph mark on the VEGLIA odo, which I know is pretty accurate after comparing it with my GPS). Now it tops out at 160 in 5th gear and refuses to rev beyond the 4700 rpm range. ANY THOUGHTS?

PICS, coming soon.
Giri, I bumped on this thread after a while. when you say the car does not cross 4700 rpm - you mean in the 5th gear or on all gears?

Can you share an update on your experience till date please..? Any maintenance issues cropped up?
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Old 6th September 2014, 22:54   #27
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Default Re: Red Rooster Power Drive for my Fiat Palio 1.6 - Advise and opinions sought

Hi All, een a while since I posted an update after the mods to my Palio.

Recapping the Mods so far:
- Grooving by Mr. Somender Singh
- BMC DIA intake
- Custom headers and free flow exhaust by Red Rooster

Intial experience (3-6 Months), just after grooving and before Red rooster
Positives
- Superb low end torque
- Can pull away from 3 rd gear from stand still
- No pining and knocking at higher gears and lower RPMs
- Increase in mileage of 2-3 KMPL under all driving conditions

Negatives
- Issues with how the timing was adjusted after engine reassembly, casuing the engine to hunt for RPMs during idle
- Sudden decrease in idling RPM from a steady 950-1000 to lower than 800 with the engine hunting for idle
- Problem got fixed after multiple visit to service station on Hosur road, not really sure what fixed the problem though!!!

Experience after all the mods (1-2 years)

Positives
- Sound of music to my ears
- No horn required for local traffic , people used to give way and stare in awe when I was pulling in from almost 50 m
- No adverse impact on FE
- Though nothing great on the BHP gains, the car felt sportier to drive and revved more freely which added to the driving experience

Negatives
- Due to the cramped nature of the engine bay and the headers going out from the firewall side on the Palio, the placement of O2 sensors was a challenge and after one of them conked out within the warrantly period, it was replaced free of cost by Red Rooster, with Mr.Leelakrishnan himself taking me out for a spin after putting in nearly 2 hours for the fix!!! His comments were " This is a really nice and tight car!!!" - priceless!!!
- Some leakage in the exhaust due to the end can and tip hitting some of the feared Bangalore road humps, paid 5 K to fix it from Red Rooster
- The exhaust note is more like a Diesel car rather than a sports car now :(.
- Though the BMC DIA is an amazing filter, due to the dusty conditions we ride in, it needs cleaning every once in a while and it is not an easy DIY job and the recharge kits are not inexpensive.
- Somehow not impressed with the intake hose design done by Red Rooster for the DIA, a very shoddy job, need some advise to re do it myself
- Please beware how you mount the DIA to the existing brackets on the palio, due to the extreme pressure when there it is functioning, it puts a lot of stress and strain on the brackets casuing it to break!!!


Next set of mods planned (ODO currently reading 89k and car almost 7 plus years old)
- Have been invited by Mr.Somender Singh to try out some new tweaks which he invented when working on similar Palios. It will also prove to be an opportunity to decarbonize my engine, replace piston rings and change my timing belt
- Replace the existing alloys with 15 inchers from either Linea or Punto and change back to Bridgestone (from the current Yokohoma S-Drives)
- Get a new ECU from RD and replace the old one
- Install a rear spoiler (any donors welcome!!!)
- Upgrade rear drums to that of the Adventure, which are bigger and will give me more stopping power
- Replace clutch (suggestions needed if aftemarket ones are available)
- Any pointers to improve the front seat ergonomics of the Palio welcome!!!
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Old 10th September 2014, 01:59   #28
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Default Re: Red Rooster Power Drive for my Fiat Palio 1.6 - Advise and opinions sought

@ Girileo81 - Did they put a down pipe part of these upgardes? If not, I strongly suggest putting a 3 inch downpipe. It makes a hell of difference in power delivery. (Atleast, thats what I experienced while I was tuning my car).
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Old 10th September 2014, 08:07   #29
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Default Re: Red Rooster Power Drive for my Fiat Palio 1.6 - Advise and opinions sought

hi Giri, did you check the power gain after all this work ?
Quote:
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Negatives
- The exhaust note is more like a Diesel car rather than a sports car now :(.
Diesel exhaust note ? I thought the diesel car's note is more from the engine ... I dont remember hearing anything from the exhaust, esp when inside/driving.
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Old 10th September 2014, 16:00   #30
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Default Re: Red Rooster Power Drive for my Fiat Palio 1.6 - Advise and opinions sought

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- The exhaust note is more like a Diesel car rather than a sports car now
I guess you are referring to the exhaust 'boom' in the cabin at certain speeds?
It can get annoying at times since its not the exhaust note actually but just a constant high volume humm like in the old Leyland buses.
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