ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

[gpa]

Seeler_Rebeiro,

How many kms have you covered? Find my responses in bold.

Cheers,
gpa

Originally Posted by Seeler_Rebeiro

Hi all,

1) Any brand recommendations? - Shell Helix Ultra, Mobil 1, Petronas Syntium
2) Any thing I need to be aware of while this is being done - besides flush + oil filter change - Drain out the very last drop of oil from the crankcase before filling in the new fully synth brew.

A few days ago, I read the article about excess engine oil and I went down and checked my oil level (cold engine). It was above the max level on the dipstick. Should I be very concerned? Should I straight away head for the oil change?

You don't have to go in for an oil change, but rather just drain out the excess oil. Don't get your engine oil checked at fuel stations while you are filling petrol as that will not give you an accurate reading.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by gpa

Don't get your engine oil checked at fuel stations while you are filling petrol as that will not give you an accurate reading.

I was going to say this, but with reasons - you will not get your ten minutes from a guy that is trying to sell you oil! Best to do this at home when you get back. I always have a litre bottle of oil at home for top up, but I cannot remember ever having used it. I have sold cars with bottles still unused and thrown them away! Indeed in the last ten years the only thing I have ever had to top up was the wiper wash fluid. Modern cars really do need very little attention if you use them well, and stick to a good preventive maintenance plan.

[Seeler_Rebeiro]

@gpa & sawyer - I must have covered about 2000kms in those 4 weeks since I was swindled into topping up the oil. Never again will I do this at the petrol station. I will pick up the synthetic oil from a reputed dealer - will go either for Shell or Mobil.
I will drain off the excess in a pan in the evening, when I get back from work. Also will drain off the last drop of oil when I go for a oil changeover on the 17th of this month.
Many thanks for the quick responses and take care.

[shabahmad]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

Thanks! A classic example of how brands exploit human nature. Both products are essentially the same, and yet, you prefer Shell. Just as some others would swear by Castrol! For no scientific reason, and building these preferences is how marketers earn a living. Now if that is a living honestly earned or not is a subject not for TBHP!

You can say that

My requirement is mineral oil, I may say Shell has reputed mineral oil. I don't have much time or equipment to test these oils; In these cases trust and brand perception comes into play. But I take opinions of other forum members before choosing products. Hope this has cleared my preference for shell.

Disclaimer: I am not related to Auto Industry or Oil Industry.

[Sawyer]

@Shabbir - Oh, there is nothing to clear! Shell is a very reputed brand, as is Castrol. Or Mobil. Or Valvoline. They are all good, is the point I am making. Indeed, a brand is all about trust as you have figured out too. And trust is in people's minds. Which is a marketers favorite playground!

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by Sawyer

It is not semi synthetic, Castrol just says it is made with synthetic technology. Which to my marketing mind is just hot air. Quite honestly, I do not know what semi synthetic means, btw. Do you? It would be nice to know.
PS: It also claims to have intelligent molecules. The Nobel prize for the first physicist to discover an intelligent molecule is still to be given!!!

They did have me fooled. I looked around and what I picked up from Malaysia sums it up nicely

Castrol Magnatec, a part synthetic engine oil, is a breakthrough in engine oil technology. With normal engine oils 70% of wear occurs during start — up and warm — up because the traditional anti — wear additives are too cold to function effectively. Castrol Magnatec is Unique Molecular Attraction (UMA) chemistry provides a complete and continuous film of protection during start — up and warm — up and dramatically reduces start — up and warm — up wear. Castrol Magnatec provides protection from the moment you turn the key.

It is part synthetic. In fact full synth is produced by first cracking Normal Oil and then resynthesising and combining to produce the exact blend required. In a semi-synth compunents are added to mineral oil to 'improve' the specs. Also, I am told that a Hyrdo cracked (whatever that emans) oil can be called semi-synth! As for the rest it it just marketing hype.

I was surprised to find a pure mineral conforming to API/SM - Petronas Mach5! I have used Castrol GTX (when available) for about three decades. Last year when Magnatec was not available I used GTX2 in both my cars. Now I have Mach5 in the Accent and the Santro gets Magnatec this weekend.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by sandeep108

My only point is that generally it would be better to follow mfr recommendations.
@Jaggu: Honda manual specifically states that first engine oil contains special additives to help complete the reduced friction of the pistons, enables proper set in of the engine components and should not be changed before 5k km. Now you and Sawyer are advising changing the oil with normal idemitsu at 1k km, which is against mfr recommendation. I feel this is not right. Since you are a mod you ought to know better and read the context of the posts. Of course I know the normal idemitsu does not contain special additives.

Anyway each to his/her own, I will not respond further.

Hi Sandeep,

What i meant is, DONOT believe blindly things written on manuals. Are you sure what they refer to is more than normal honda engine oil? I dont think so.

Honda uses regular mineral oil, its branded and packed for Honda and available only at their dealerships. They might have additives in it as recommended by Honda, that am not disputing. But that doesnt mean that you cant change the oil at 1k kms, and that too to the same oil from Honda.

Reason why i would opt for an oil change is to remove any fine metal particles that might have got collected in the oil during the initial running in. These days the oil drain plugs are magnetic and they take care of this to some extend, but better option is to drain the oil and replace it along with the filter.

I also have mentioned that if shifting to higher grade, do it after 5k kms by that time the engine would have completed the initial breaking in period.

From then on its upto the owner if he wants to put in a higher spec oil or not.

Also please note that, there is nothing majorly wrong if you DONT change at 1k kms. Thanks to very good filtration process in modern engines.

Originally Posted by Sawyer

Where have I advised using mineral oil at 1k in a car that is now supposed to come with a synth as factory fill?

I dont think from factory synthetics are provided by Honda, due to obvious cost factor. Dealership though are providing synth's as option while going for oil change.

[DocG]

Hmm I don't want to jump in to this thread and start an argument, but I'd like to state some manufacturer policies.

It doesn't matter to them how often you wish to change your oil and oil filter, the more you change it the better.

However some manufacturers are very picky regarding their warranty. I know from experience that my Toyota, Honda, BMW and MB service insist that oil changes be done with them only, and allow only their specific brands of engine oil to go in. All have synthetics on offer, but do not allow you to buy your own oil and ask them to do an oil change.

If the buyer does not wish to conform to these policies, quite simple, say bye-bye to your warranty!

And trust me when you have a car that costs over 10 Lakhs, you really want to have that warranty! [Not saying that owners of A/B segment cars don't respect their warranty, but I've not seen too many companies competing in this segment having such stringent regulations.]

[abhik]

Guys have a question :-
Are fully synthetic ENGINE oils different for cars and bike and different applications?

If i have a canister of Mobil 1 05W40, can i use it in my petrol car, my petrol bike and my diesel car?

[Sawyer]

Indian whisky is often touted as blended with Scotch. The inside story of this is that even if you add a few ml of Scotch in a barrel of local stuff, legally you are in the clear. This - from an insider. While I am not that close to Castrol, my belief is that this is the same hogwash. Like the UMA nonsense. All oil has UMA! That is why it feels oily and needs solvent to wash away from your hand!!
And all minerals are a combination of base oils plus an additives package for years now. Ever since the multigrades started.
Castrol has cooked up this semi synth story to justify a premium for Magnatec over GTX is my sense of this. The extent of the premium over GTX - marginal, compared to the extent of discount over full synth - significant - will give you an insight into what is what.
End of the day, the only words I go by is the grade and the API rating. Rest of it is just marketing. And of course, you have to be careful of the spurious stuff. I bought Magnatec only because it goes down to 10W and is SM, and is freely available in Pune. I am convinced it is a mineral oil, but I really don't care about that adjective, it is an irrelevancy.

Originally Posted by abhik

Guys have a question :-
Are fully synthetic ENGINE oils different for cars and bike and different applications?

If i have a canister of Mobil 1 05W40, can i use it in my petrol car, my petrol bike and my diesel car?

Do not use it on your bike, it will mess up your clutch - in a bike the oil circulation is common, so check on this aspect first.
For diesels, I believe you can use it, but a customized for diesel synth may be a better idea.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by DocG

Hmm I don't want to jump in to this thread and start an argument, but I'd like to state some manufacturer policies.

It doesn't matter to them how often you wish to change your oil and oil filter, the more you change it the better.

However some manufacturers are very picky regarding their warranty. I know from experience that my Toyota, Honda, BMW and MB service insist that oil changes be done with them only, and allow only their specific brands of engine oil to go in. All have synthetics on offer, but do not allow you to buy your own oil and ask them to do an oil change.

If the buyer does not wish to conform to these policies, quite simple, say bye-bye to your warranty!

And trust me when you have a car that costs over 10 Lakhs, you really want to have that warranty! [Not saying that owners of A/B segment cars don't respect their warranty, but I've not seen too many companies competing in this segment having such stringent regulations.]

True, but if you know your way around you can definitely get things done your way without any warranty issues. Its just matter of building a relation with the dealership be it Merc or Maruti I had a very funny incident where dealer's workshop 1 gave me all cock and bull story of warranty, for oil from outside, whereas workshop 2 of the same dealer gladly did it, without even charging me.

Let me add Honda being the most notorious at giving stories and one will have to virtually arm twist them to submission.

There is a huge business angle to this and dealerships never would want to loose out on that, especially after spending a huge amount in getting a dealership in the first place. So best bet is to make friend and get things done.

Originally Posted by abhik

Guys have a question :-
Are fully synthetic ENGINE oils different for cars and bike and different applications?

If i have a canister of Mobil 1 05W40, can i use it in my petrol car, my petrol bike and my diesel car?

Car yes.
Bike no, if its a wet clutch since it can cause slip as explained above.
Diesel Yes but ideally NO since it doesnt have detergents that would help in diesel motors.

EDIT: Went back couple of pages and wow got a great debate going in here, i havent been visiting this thread often these days!

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by DocG

Hmm I don't want to jump in to this thread and start an argument, but I'd like to state some manufacturer policies.

It doesn't matter to them how often you wish to change your oil and oil filter, the more you change it the better.

However some manufacturers are very picky regarding their warranty. I know from experience that my Toyota, Honda, BMW and MB service insist that oil changes be done with them only, and allow only their specific brands of engine oil to go in. All have synthetics on offer, but do not allow you to buy your own oil and ask them to do an oil change.

If the buyer does not wish to conform to these policies, quite simple, say bye-bye to your warranty!

And trust me when you have a car that costs over 10 Lakhs, you really want to have that warranty! [Not saying that owners of A/B segment cars don't respect their warranty, but I've not seen too many companies competing in this segment having such stringent regulations.]

I am shocked to put in bluntly. While I can understand that the change be done by them (to ensure that it is actually done, and with the right grade of oil) anything beyond that is pure rubbish and GREED! Firstly none of them manufacture oil, they just source it from some vendor.

As for the grade of co-branded oils - less said the better. I hope things are not that bad here - take our own Sarkari IOC. Servo is normally API-SF(now an obsolete grade internationally) or SJ, but MGO is only API-CC (pre historic).

Also, why Honda insists of an oil change every 5000km / 6 months sure beats me. Are their engines that cr^p, when the world has moved on to 10,000 km/miles or once a year (I think this started over 20 years ago) , or may be it is a cheap trick to make the customer cough up! They sure owe us an explanation.

[tsk1979]

Lot of FUD flowing around here.
A workshop may say anything, but warranty is bound by laws specified in the booket my manufacturer.
No manufacturer to my knowledge restricts oil by one brand only.
They give specification.
for example meets/exceeds 15W40 API-SL
As long as you use an oil which meets these specs, no manufacturer will void warranty.

Secondly manufacturer says "X duration oil change interval".
If you want your warranty, no matter what oil you put in, you have to follow that. If you mfg says 5000kms, you have to change after 5000kms, even if the Engine oil mfr says 15000kms long drain oil.

Now as to why workshops say "buy oil from us?"
The reason is the huge margins they make. They will sell oil to you on MRP. Maximum Retail Price.
Now when you go out to buy oil from the dealers, you will see that the rate you get is 50-60rs less than the printed mrp even with bill. Dealers buy bulk, so they get even cheaper rates. But there is no obligation over them to pass this benefit to you. So you have this racket.

[Jaggu]

I always had this doubt, how would they determine if we change oil at x k kms?

What if we can provide bills from a non authorized workshop? will they accept it??!

[tsk1979]

No they won't.
If you take your car to another non authorized workshop, your warranty is void. Its clearly mentioned in the manual.
Whether forcing you to go to authorized workshops is good or bad is a different issue, but generally if you do something which manual tells you not to do, your warranty can become void