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Old 17th January 2012, 00:15   #3256
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

I do not know how much engine oil the Safari takes in, but assuming it's about 4 liters, I would suggest going in for a semi-synthetic. Mobil has one by the name of Delvac MX & a big can (either 4 or 5 liters) would cost you about 1.5K.

If mineral is what you wish to use, I would suggest either Gulf or another oil from ELF. For ELF, you need to check their website & find the name. But Gulf would be the cheapest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by richie4u View Post
Well the current oil in my Safari is Mobil, but I need to change the oil now so I had visited the Bosch service center who gave me two options 1) bosch 15W40 (mineral-Rs. 375/l aprox) or 2) Mobil Delvac 5W40(synthetic 950/l)

I currently want to go in for a mineral oil so just wanted to ask for your opinion , well If not Bosch which is a good mineral oil for my Tata safari 2.2 dicor (15W40, CH-4 Rating or better) please advise.
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Old 17th January 2012, 01:48   #3257
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

It is good to be cautious but let us not get paranoid about the oil and go about changing it. 5W30 means that the oil will maintain a uniform viscosity and remain 'pourable' / 'flowable' at ambients from -20 deg C to +40 deg C. Further this grade will provide better lubricity to your engine than a 10WX right from ignition under cold weather conditions.

Of course in Delhi we are not going to see -5 deg C till the next ice age what to talk about -20 but then the same oil covers you all the way to 40+ deg C ambients on the other end.

Again it does not mean that the oil will be ineffective in providing adequate lubrication beyond an indicated ambient. All this means is that the oil will thin out beyond 40 deg C but then it is designed to do that. In a running engine wherein thousands of explosions are taking place every minute, what do you think the working temperature is?? way beyond the 40s. So do our engines stall? no, 'cause the oils that are in there are formulated to undergo these extremes repeatedly and keep on lubricating the engines.

In a nut shell while a 10W40 would have been more suitable a 5W30 is not a disaster. So sit tight and enjoy the drive. If by any chance you still want to change the oil in your car, do tie up with me. I will gladly have the oil coming out of your car's sump collected in a clean vessel and pour it into one of my car's engine that may be due for an oil change. Why waste oil that's hardly been used.

While on the grade, my Mitsubishi runs on a 5W40 grade synthetic made by Motul. This is the only grade that is specified by Mitsu Worldwide. So from the cold of Alaska to the heat of the Gulf desert, this one grade holds good every where. Trust this sheds a bit of light on the unnecessary hoo-haa about grades.

Infact, the same oil i.e. Motul Xcess 8100 5W40 is poured in to both the Petrol and Diesel engine equipped vehicles made by Mitsu. Go figure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by k2max6 View Post
Thanks.I was getting double minded since i saw the bill.
I'll go tomorrow and get the oil changed.
Just for info : Can this oil cause damage to the engine ?
Also - Which would be the best semi synthetic for the F10D with grade ?
Did I miss something, metal shavings??

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackfire_9 View Post
Just keep a watch on the oil while it's being removed, there should not be any metal shavings etc in the oil. This is highly unlikely, but I am still just suggesting to keep a watch, to be on the safer side.


Mobil itself is one of the leading oil brands and they do offer semi synthetics too. Bosch is a global player in the automotive industry and is good too. I believe that Bosch would be getting the oil manufactured and packed by a third party vendor but then this would be to their own specifications. Check the packaging it will clearly tell you who is manufacturing the oil for Bosch. In case they are importing the oil from one of their blending plants overseas nothing better.


Quote:
Originally Posted by richie4u View Post
Well the current oil in my Safari is Mobil, but I need to change the oil now so I had visited the Bosch service center who gave me two options 1) bosch 15W40 (mineral-Rs. 375/l aprox) or 2) Mobil Delvac 5W40(synthetic 950/l)

I currently want to go in for a mineral oil so just wanted to ask for your opinion , well If not Bosch which is a good mineral oil for my Tata safari 2.2 dicor (15W40, CH-4 Rating or better) please advise.

Last edited by khoj : 17th January 2012 at 01:52.
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Old 17th January 2012, 06:48   #3258
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

What you have stated regarding the 5W30 oil & the temperature range in which it would be effective stands true for the new K-series engines. The engine in question here is the old F series as in the 800cc Alto or the old Wagon R, where the manual clearly states that this oil is not the right choice for temperatures above 10 degree centigrade & as you have yourself mentioned, Delhi does get a lot more hotter than that.

Also, a thinner oil is not bad & you are right here. But that depends on which engine we are speaking of. Most modern engines require a 30 grade oil but it's because of the engine design & better tolerances.

Lastly, about metal shavings, just because the oil is not recommended & is too thin for use in the F10D is why I had suggested to keep a watch on the oil though as mentioned earlier, it's highly unlikely.

Drive safe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by khoj View Post
5W30 means that the oil will maintain a uniform viscosity and remain 'pourable' / 'flowable' at ambients from -20 deg C to +40 deg C. the same oil covers you all the way to 40+ deg C ambients on the other end.

Trust this sheds a bit of light on the unnecessary hoo-haa about grades.

Did I miss something, metal shavings??
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Old 17th January 2012, 09:03   #3259
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Let me chip in. The viscosity of hot oil has a lot to do with preventing metal-to-metal contact between the moving parts. Any metal to metal contact of the moving parts will be disastrous.

The lower end defines not as much the pouring, but more important how quickly the oil circulates in a cold start. Also, many modern cars have hydraulic tappets/lifters and they also benefit from fast circulation. In the extreme case a higher minimum rating can even make it difficult to cold start. I have faced this in the early 1970's in the UK.
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Old 17th January 2012, 11:06   #3260
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
In principle yes, but the possibility is rather low. As I have stated many times earlier, oil is specified as mWn. For m using a thinner rating is fine, for n a thicker oil is fine.
So going by the above, is a 0W40 API-CF4 oil is fine for a 5W30 API-CH4 spec engine ? What is the difference between the CF4 and CH4 specification.

Is a oil certified for MB 229.5 ok to use in a MB 228.3 spec engine ?

This is w.r.t to the Safari Dicor 2.2. VTT engine.

thanks
Srini
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Old 17th January 2012, 11:13   #3261
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

By and large a later specification is an update on the older one. I have no knowledge about diesels so cannot comment on your specific case. As for the oils you have to balance the lower spec (CF4 vs CH4) and also the higher end viscosity. If your car wants only SAE30 then in principle SAE40 may lead to a marginally higher (say by <0.1%) fuel consumption.
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Old 17th January 2012, 12:46   #3262
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The workshop is refusing to change the oil. They say they get it from maruti and as per Maruti's instruction only they have filled it. I have filled the complaint form on the maruti website. Lets wait and watch.

EDIT: also called up the maruti helpline, they asked me to call the regional office.called them & registered the complaint with the regional office. They will get back to me soon and give a clear picture.

Last edited by k2max6 : 17th January 2012 at 12:58.
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Old 17th January 2012, 12:58   #3263
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

I've been driving my SWIFT on a Synthetic oil since the engine was worked 12K Kms ago. Now its time to change the oil. Can I go in for a Semi Synthetic Oil as I used to drive on Mobil Delvac before the engine work.
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Old 17th January 2012, 13:12   #3264
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by k2max6 View Post
The workshop is refusing to change the oil. They say they get it from maruti and as per Maruti's instruction only they have filled it. I have filled the complaint form on the maruti website. Lets wait and watch.

EDIT: also called up the maruti helpline, they asked me to call the regional office.called them & registered the complaint with the regional office. They will get back to me soon and give a clear picture.
Please let us know what they say. I was the first to post about this a month back. This came to light when I took a relative's '06 Zen for service to MSM. They filled this semi-synth MGO for it and informed me this was as per instruction from Maruti, and the 20W40 oil is being used for carb models alone. I understood this was going on for some time, but I was not aware as I used to carry my own oil for my Alto service. Since MSM is directly run by Maruti, I left it at that.

I feel no harm will be done by using this oil though the older MGO was 20W40. The engine can accept both 10W30 as well as 20W50 IMO. I don't think they deliberately do it for better margins, as the price difference between the two MGOs is negligible.

Last edited by Gansan : 17th January 2012 at 13:13.
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Old 17th January 2012, 14:09   #3265
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Now thats quick
Just got a call from the workshop explaining that you have been billed wrongly and we had filled it with 10W40 only, you don't need to worry.I said i don't trust you. The same person earlier explained that 5W30 is fine & now i dont believe you and I want an oil change in front of my eyes and he agreed easily.
I'll be going in for an oil change by 4 pm.
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Old 17th January 2012, 14:27   #3266
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

The manual does not state that the oil is not suitable it merely gives an indication as to which grade to pick up based on the ambient temperatures of the location of the end user. The numerical values in the grades are not temperature readouts.

Is there a change to the metallurgy of the engine between the older F? series and the new K series. There may be changes to the fuel path, injector nozzle, piston ring & tappet design so on and so forth but nothing that will render a particular grade of oil unsuitable for the old engine. It may not be an optimum grade but unsuitable is unjust.

As for the tolerances being tighter it does not mean that they have moved from say 1-2 thou to 4-5 thous now. What it means is that the tolerances are now more uniform across the entire part spectrum. No car manufacturer is going to indulge you with better tolerances as moving up by even 1 thou across all surfaces would involve major changes in metallurgy & tooling/SPMs viz. a major expense that a manufacturer can ill afford.

Further with the usage of aluminum in place of CI plus with new and improved casting and machining techniques it is very rare to find burrs and shavings these days. As for Maruti, well at least in their old plant there is an engine test bed where upon assembly every single engine is run for a specified amount of time. I believe any shavings if are any would show up right there. I do not see any reason for Maruti to have discontinued the practice at the Manesar plant.


Quote:
Originally Posted by blackfire_9 View Post
What you have stated regarding the 5W30 oil & the temperature range in which it would be effective stands true for the new K-series engines. The engine in question here is the old F series as in the 800cc Alto or the old Wagon R, where the manual clearly states that this oil is not the right choice for temperatures above 10 degree centigrade & as you have yourself mentioned, Delhi does get a lot more hotter than that.

Also, a thinner oil is not bad & you are right here. But that depends on which engine we are speaking of. Most modern engines require a 30 grade oil but it's because of the engine design & better tolerances.

Lastly, about metal shavings, just because the oil is not recommended & is too thin for use in the F10D is why I had suggested to keep a watch on the oil though as mentioned earlier, it's highly unlikely.

Drive safe.


You will agree that there has been a lot of developments in the formulation of oils since the 70s to current date. Isn't that what the journey from 'Castor Oil' to 'Castrol' is all about

As for the metal to metal contact, it is only a microscopic film of oil that separates any two surfaces in the block. Even today the good old Castor Oil is pretty much capable of providing that layer of safety, though not for an extended period. A grade of oil slightly off than the perceived optimum grade is then not the worst thing that could happen to an engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Let me chip in. The viscosity of hot oil has a lot to do with preventing metal-to-metal contact between the moving parts. Any metal to metal contact of the moving parts will be disastrous.

The lower end defines not as much the pouring, but more important how quickly the oil circulates in a cold start. Also, many modern cars have hydraulic tappets/lifters and they also benefit from fast circulation. In the extreme case a higher minimum rating can even make it difficult to cold start. I have faced this in the early 1970's in the UK.


If it helps you in any which way. My 2008 Swift zxi has been running on Mobil1 0W40 and the odometer reading is approximately 19K kms as of date. The oil was filled at My Car, a MASS in Poona with the odometer at 11000 odd kilometers and there have been no issues since. Would have posted this last night itself but wanted to recheck the grade of the oil. This is definitely an old series engine and my car seems to be happy with this diet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by k2max6 K2MAX6
The workshop is refusing to change the oil. They say they get it from maruti and as per Maruti's instruction only they have filled it. I have filled the complaint form on the maruti website. Lets wait and watch.
Anyhow if an oil change gives you peace of mind, do go ahead by all means. I too will be following your posts to see what the service centre has to say apart from the usual "it is Maruti approved" line. I hope you have escalated this to the General Manager of the concerned service centre as resolutions are a rarity at the shop floor level.

EDIT : Good to see the quick response, do fill us in post your visit later in the day.

Last edited by khoj : 17th January 2012 at 14:31.
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Old 17th January 2012, 15:16   #3267
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by k2max6 View Post
Now thats quick
Just got a call from the workshop explaining that you have been billed wrongly and we had filled it with 10W40 only, you don't need to worry.I said i don't trust you. The same person earlier explained that 5W30 is fine & now i dont believe you and I want an oil change in front of my eyes and he agreed easily.
I'll be going in for an oil change by 4 pm.
So, the manual stands correct & this confirms that the 30 grade oil is not applicable for F series engines, in conditions where ambient temperatures are above 10 degrees centigrade. Good luck!

Quote:
Originally Posted by khoj View Post
The manual does not state that the oil is not suitable it merely gives an indication as to which grade to pick up based on the ambient temperatures of the location of the end user. The numerical values in the grades are not temperature readouts.
Just one thing, please have a look at what I have posted above one more time. It' your assumption that I am considering the grades as temperature readouts. What I have said is that the 30 grade oil is not suitable for F series above ambient temperatures of 10 degrees centigrade. I hope I am more lucid this time.

Secondly, about tolerances again, I have said "better" & not "tighter". But at the same time while we are on this topic, I also believe that over the period of the past 1 or 2 decades, manufacturers (maybe not all) have slowly come out with engines with tighter tolerances as well. Please let me know if I am under a wrong impression.

Moreover, I am not somebody who knows the blueprint of the K-series or the F-series but what I have suggested to our friend "k2max6" is purely based on the recommendations of somebody who knows all that i.e. Maruti Suzuki.

Lastly, & for one last time, if an oil is too thin (for a particular engine under a set of conditions) then it would lead to metal to metal contact. Following this principle (please correct if I am wrong), metal debris/shavings or any other name that you may want to give, would appear in the oil. Please don't make it an issue, it's just something that I have suggested based on what can happen in theory but again, highly unlikely to have happened in "k2max6's" practical scenario.

Drive safe.

Last edited by blackfire_9 : 17th January 2012 at 15:18.
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Old 17th January 2012, 16:00   #3268
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Default Suitable oil for Mercedes w124 e250 diesel

Mercedes W124 E250 Diesel, 1997 model, made in India.

Here is the specification from owner's manual.

Please suggest a suitable oil.

Does synthetic will have any advantage over mineral oil ?
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Ravindra M : 17th January 2012 at 16:03. Reason: Attachment correction
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Old 17th January 2012, 16:09   #3269
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

LOL, why would I make an issue out of it. Then again one cannot read incorrect information and let it be as in the bit about metal debris appearing in the oil. Those debris disappeared along with the Cast Iron blocks and liners going out of prevalence in car engines and even then they were rare.

If an engine were to run non lubricated or inadequately lubricated what one would see are on-off-on-off spot welds eventually leading to engine seizure. It is extremely rare to see metal particles anymore unless the 'now on - now off' spot welds lead to a weld mole which might break off and then destroy the engine but that would be a one in a million kind of incidence.

There are either lubricating liquids (oils, greases etc) or non lubricating ones (water). When it comes to metal to metal contact there is no oil that can be too thin or too thick. As long as there is sufficient oil in the engine and let it be the worst grade possible the chances of metal to metal contact are Zero.

Thou being a thousandth of an inch all one needs and infact all that can be forced through such a clearance is indeed a microscopic layer of lubricating fluid. While all lubricating liquids will do well to coat the metal surfaces with the required microscopic layer, the question is for how long and how many repeated cycles given a certain application.

Any how when I post the idea is not to start an unnecessary discussion but only to share the wee bit that I know about the subject at hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackfire_9 View Post
Lastly, & for one last time, if an oil is too thin (for a particular engine under a set of conditions) then it would lead to metal to metal contact. Following this principle (please correct if I am wrong), metal debris/shavings or any other name that you may want to give, would appear in the oil. Please don't make it an issue, it's just something that I have suggested based on what can happen in theory but again, highly unlikely to have happened in "k2max6's" practical scenario.

Drive safe.
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Old 17th January 2012, 16:19   #3270
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Re: The info printed in the F10 and K10 manuals.

When the F10 manuals were compiled, I think the most advanced oils would have been API-SH or so. Now for the 5W30 MGO, what is the API rating? If it is SL or SM, will it not be as good as or even better than the older SF rated 20W40 MGO?

Why I ask is, when I bought my Splendor in Feb 2000, the recommended oil in the manual was 20W40. But within a couple of months they brought out the HH 4T+ oil which was 10W30 API-SH and standardized it for all bikes in the A.S.S. My bike has been on that diet from the second service onwards and is nearing 100k KM on the odo now. I don't see any ill effects and bike engines rev harder and run hotter than car engines.

Last edited by Gansan : 17th January 2012 at 16:24.
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