Go Back   Team-BHP > Team-BHP > Team-BHP Advice > On modifying a car


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 18th March 2012, 10:23   #3361
BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: bangalore
Posts: 47
Thanked: 16 Times
Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by guptavis View Post
really? i thought HX6 is for diesel. Are you sure you used HX6 or did you mean HX7?
hi,i am really sorry you are right ,its shell helix HX7 blue colour bottle.thanks
chetan5678 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2012, 17:26   #3362
BHPian
 
guptad42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 84
Thanked: 21 Times
Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

On a recent US trip, I realised that the price differential on full synthetics like Mobil 1 is even higher than the latest electronics and techie gadgets. I found Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W40 in the $23-27 range at several retailers for a 5 quart container (about 4.7 Litres). Locals said you can find it below $20 sometime on sales. And these weren't 1-2 year stock as I often see on the shelves in India.

That's Rs 1000 to 1200 approx for nearly 4.7 liters of mobil 1 fully synthetic oil with special additives for use in older engines! Most authorised service centers charge that much for a normal mineral oil change. And fully synth oils tend to be > Rs 1,000 per litre.

So, why are synthetic oils so expensive in India? Does the govt charge duries and taxes on the lubes, like fuels? The crude import duties aren't that high.

Near US retail prices for synthetics, a castrol or exxon mobil can set up a dedicated India plant and just kill the market for convetional oils, capturing a long-term dominant position in a major growth market.
guptad42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2012, 17:44   #3363
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 1,442
Thanked: 281 Times
Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by guptad42 View Post
On a recent US trip, I realised that the price differential on full synthetics like Mobil 1 is even higher than the latest electronics and techie gadgets. I found Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W40 in the $23-27 range at several retailers for a 5 quart container (about 4.7 Litres). Locals said you can find it below $20 sometime on sales. And these weren't 1-2 year stock as I often see on the shelves in India.

That's Rs 1000 to 1200 approx for nearly 4.7 liters of mobil 1 fully synthetic oil with special additives for use in older engines! Most authorised service centers charge that much for a normal mineral oil change. And fully synth oils tend to be > Rs 1,000 per litre.

So, why are synthetic oils so expensive in India? Does the govt charge duries and taxes on the lubes, like fuels? The crude import duties aren't that high.

Near US retail prices for synthetics, a castrol or exxon mobil can set up a dedicated India plant and just kill the market for convetional oils, capturing a long-term dominant position in a major growth market.
When I was in the US, the dealer used to charge me 25$ for an oil change (normal mineral oil). I am pretty sure almost all dealers in India charge the same or more more than this. This is even considering that fact that labour is cheaper in India than in the US.

Other than this, Goodyear's Oil Change Stores used to send me coupons for 15$ or 20$ for oil change. Many of these coupons also included a free tyre rotation thrown in with the oil change.

I assume that the difference is because oil is taxed much less in USA than in India, but I am not sure about this.

About synthetics, other than people using it for premium reasons a lot of frugal people in the USA also use synthetics because it increases the oil change interval - i.e. they use it to save money. That's why you find synthetic oil change being offered even in low end places like Walmart oil change centers.


EDIT: I checked the current oil change prices at my dealers website.
  • Oil & Filter Change - up to 5 quarts, additional oil extra
  • $36.95 - regular oil
  • $46.95 - synthetic blend
  • $66.95 - synthetic
This is for any car you bring there - though they were mainly dealers for Mazda, Chevrolet and Saturn.

Last edited by carboy : 18th March 2012 at 17:54.
carboy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2012, 18:32   #3364
BHPian
 
guptad42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 84
Thanked: 21 Times
Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by carboy View Post
...
I assume that the difference is because oil is taxed much less in USA than in India, but I am not sure about this.
...
About synthetics, other than people using it for premium reasons a lot of frugal people in the USA also use synthetics because it increases the oil change interval - i.e. they use it to save money. That's why you find synthetic oil change being offered even in low end places like Walmart oil change centers.

EDIT: I checked the current oil change prices at my dealers website.
  • Oil & Filter Change - up to 5 quarts, additional oil extra
  • $36.95 - regular oil
  • $46.95 - synthetic blend
  • $66.95 - synthetic
This is for any car you bring there - though they were mainly dealers for Mazda, Chevrolet and Saturn.
That's what I'm trying to clarify with the Team BHP - is the price higher here just because of higher taxes, or is it becuase the oil cos haven't seriously looked at India as a potentially major consumer of synthetic oil and volumes are low.

The economy view of sythetic - saving money with longer change intervals - that's exactly what should be promoted in India (along with better protection) but it cannot be done at current sythetic oil prices here.

A better comparison of prices may be for US retail to India retail, as it removes the labour costs from the equation. I did a quick check on walmart: It's currently available for $26 for a 5 quart (4.73 L) container.
Walmart.com: Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-40 Full Synthetic Motor Oil, 5qt: Automotive
guptad42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2012, 19:54   #3365
Senior - BHPian
 
R2D2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Punya Nagari
Posts: 1,558
Thanked: 623 Times
Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by guptad42 View Post
is the price higher here just because of higher taxes, or is it becuase the oil cos haven't seriously looked at India as a potentially major consumer of synthetic oil and volumes are low.

A better comparison of prices may be for US retail to India retail, as it removes the labour costs from the equation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carboy View Post
About synthetics, other than people using it for premium reasons a lot of frugal people in the USA also use synthetics because it increases the oil change interval - i.e. they use it to save money. That's why you find synthetic oil change being offered even in low end places like Walmart oil change centers.

EDIT: I checked the current oil change prices at my dealers website.
  • Oil & Filter Change - up to 5 quarts, additional oil extra
  • $36.95 - regular oil
  • $46.95 - synthetic blend
  • $66.95 - synthetic
Petroleum products are subjected to very high taxes in India, a comparison of the price of petrol in India and the US is an indicator. Current US prices are around about $3.5/gallon (see gasbuddy.com) which is about Rs 46.17/litre. Compare that to the Rs 72 I pay at the petrol pump which makes our petrol purchases 56% more expensive than in the US.

But the grass is not always greener on the other side. With some exceptions like Delhi/NCR, commuting distances are lower in India which translates to lower outgoings on fuel and maintenance. And we use smaller cars with smaller engines. Of course, UK retail petrol prices (like most things in UK and Europe), are comparatively exorbitant - GBP 1.4 to 1.5/litre (Rs 110 to 119/litre) with diesel at the nearly the same price.

In India, synthetics are priced way higher than mineral because of:

a) Local taxes and duties
b) Customs duties - synthetic oils are imported from factories in S'pore, Qatar and other areas in MEA and APAC.
c) Manufacturers' and distribution channel margins.

I paid approx Rs 3,100/ @ the distributor for a 4 litre (4.22 US Quarts) can of Shell Helix Ultra which is about US$ 15.5/litre or US$ 14.69/quart. Add another $7 for an oil filter and $8 for labour with taxes at the authorised dealer - total cost of an oil change with synthetic is $77. About $10 more than the US retailer's quote of $66.9 for an oil change with synthetic. Not bad at all given the disparities in petrol prices.

Last edited by R2D2 : 18th March 2012 at 19:56.
R2D2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2012, 21:36   #3366
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 1,442
Thanked: 281 Times
Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
I paid approx Rs 3,100/ @ the distributor for a 4 litre (4.22 US Quarts) can of Shell Helix Ultra which is about US$ 15.5/litre or US$ 14.69/quart. Add another $7 for an oil filter and $8 for labour with taxes at the authorised dealer - total cost of an oil change with synthetic is $77. About $10 more than the US retailer's quote of $66.9 for an oil change with synthetic. Not bad at all given the disparities in petrol prices.
The price I quoted was a dealer. Is yours also at a dealer? I think it would be much cheaper outside a goodyear or somewhere.
carboy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2012, 21:47   #3367
Senior - BHPian
 
R2D2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Punya Nagari
Posts: 1,558
Thanked: 623 Times
Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by carboy View Post
The price I quoted was a dealer. Is yours also at a dealer? I think it would be much cheaper outside a goodyear or somewhere.
Oil change at a dealer (nobody else services mah car ), and oil purchased from a Shell distributor.

If I had purchased the oil from the dealer (Toyota) and used their 'approved synthetic' oil, add $20/INR 1000 to the total price.

Cheers!
R2D2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2012, 21:49   #3368
Senior - BHPian
 
blackfire_9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: India
Posts: 1,075
Thanked: 186 Times
Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Not true!

The Shell Helix Ultra Extra can be used in a gasoline engine as well. It has an ACEA rating of C2/C3, which is simply aimed at enhancing the service life of various after-treatment devices in an automobile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by khoj View Post
The 'Ultra Extra' oils are meant for use only in Diesel engines. If your vehicle is diesel powered go ahead.
blackfire_9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2012, 00:58   #3369
Senior - BHPian
 
devarshi84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ahmedabad - Tor
Posts: 3,983
Thanked: 101 Times
Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

How can one ensure a more cooled engine based on the oil and oil grade?

I find my Bullet C5 bike to heat up a little and expect it to go higher during peak summers so just wanted to take precautions if such an option exists.
devarshi84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2012, 02:54   #3370
Senior - BHPian
 
khoj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Dilli
Posts: 2,722
Thanked: 1,248 Times
Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Mod Note : There's no need to get rude. Put your argument across in an objective, factual manner. Thanks

Per the same the Ultra Extra is meant for Diesel engines.

shell_helix_grade_selection_guide.pdf


Quote:
Originally Posted by blackfire_9 View Post
Not true!

The Shell Helix Ultra Extra can be used in a gasoline engine as well. It has an ACEA rating of C2/C3, which is simply aimed at enhancing the service life of various after-treatment devices in an automobile.

Last edited by GTO : 23rd March 2012 at 13:45. Reason: Mod Note : There's no need to get rude. Put your argument across in an objective, factual manner. Thanks
khoj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2012, 14:44   #3371
Senior - BHPian
 
blackfire_9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: India
Posts: 1,075
Thanked: 186 Times
Default

Thirdly, what I have written is simply based on the ratings that the product carries & their meaning as explained on the ACEA website. And based on the information stated regarding the ACEA ratings, an oil carrying C2/C3 is usable in a gasoline engine also & not unusable as you had mentioned in your earlier posts.

@khoj: Just wanted to add the link to the products page on Shell's India website.

Shell Helix Ultra Extra | India

You would find that the site mentions that this oil has been formulated for high performance gasoline engines & there is in fact no mention of a diesel engine on this page but like you, I won't say that this oil cannot be used in a diesel engine since I chose to understand what the various ratings mean.

Last edited by GTO : 23rd March 2012 at 13:46. Reason: As requested
blackfire_9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2012, 20:53   #3372
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 1,442
Thanked: 281 Times
Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackfire_9 View Post
@khoj: Just wanted to add the link to the products page on Shell's India website.

Shell Helix Ultra Extra | India

You would find that the site mentions that this oil has been formulated for high performance gasoline engines & there is in fact no mention of a diesel engine on this page but like you, I won't say that this oil cannot be used in a diesel engine since I chose to understand what the various ratings mean.
The C2/C3 means diesel engine, right?
ACEA C2
ACEA C3
carboy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2012, 08:33   #3373
Senior - BHPian
 
blackfire_9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: India
Posts: 1,075
Thanked: 186 Times
Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

@carboy: Buddy, according to the ACEA website, C2/C3 is simply an oil formulated for enhancing the life of after-treatment devices & can be used in gasoline as well as a diesel engine that can run using low SAPS oil. I have posted the link in this post, please refer to that as well as the Shell website's link I had posted in one of my previous posts.

Last edited by GTO : 23rd March 2012 at 13:47. Reason: Cleaning up thread
blackfire_9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2012, 13:20   #3374
BHPian
 
Catalyst_delhi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Noida/Coimbator
Posts: 338
Thanked: 145 Times
Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Changed engine oil to Mobil Super 10w30 in my ford ikon 1.6. Much better than Castrol Edge. Cheaper as well. 1200 rupees for filter and oil (4.5 lit). Recommended is 5w30 but the lower number does not matter.
Catalyst_delhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd April 2012, 23:52   #3375
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 818
Thanked: 112 Times
Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Just got Shell Helix Ultra 5W40 for the 4th 20K kms service of my Gypsy King next week. I had not read this thread for a while so did not know that fully synth oils are available @700+ per litre. I paid 800/- per liter from a shell dealer on JC road. So 4ltr cost me 3200/-. The MRP reads 4400/- for a Sept 2011 import.

I've decided not to go for engine flush although the carbible site says fully synth and mineral don't mix at all. I changed to semi synth castrol magnatec during he 3rd free service @10K kms some months back. While I did notice engine break in after 7K kms and 12k kms, recently there has been improvement in smoothness and pickup after 18K kms as well. So I plan to change oils only after 20K kms next although I am a little wary of any sludge removed from the seals owing to fully synth oil cleaning up deposits set in by mineral oils. Hope it doesn't undo the positive side-effects like better sealing resulting from the deposits.

Will update on the results a month down the line.

Cheers
--Ragul

Last edited by Ragul : 2nd April 2012 at 23:58.
Ragul is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Where to buy Mobil1 / Castrol Synthetic Oil in Mumbai? Max Shifting gears 27 14th June 2015 23:41
Synthetic Oil in Bangalore epyupc Modifications & Accessories 49 29th May 2015 15:03
Oil change..Synthetic, where to source DRC Technical Stuff 21 2nd December 2007 15:00
Synthetic Oil karthik247 Technical Stuff 10 8th November 2005 18:02


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 03:28.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks