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Old 9th February 2013, 22:15   #3691
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
Synthetic needs to be changed at the same recommended time/mileage intervals as mineral. Whoever told you that it has 2x or 3x the drain interval is misinformed. There are high mileage or extended drain synthetics but none are available in India.

I have been using Shell Helix Ultra 5w-40 for years and change it at 10K kms/1 year whichever is earlier.

If the cost of changing synthetic (at the same interval as mineral) begins to pinch it is time to consider going back to mineral. Fresh mineral oil is always better than old synthetic.



Don't go synthetic with high mileage engine. Contrary to what you expect it may become noisier as synthetics have very good detergent capabilities. I'd say stick to mineral but semi synthetic is fine if you really want to use something better.

Never used Total so have no comments but there would be TBHPians who have used it.
And thus this debate continues. It would not be too far-fetched to state that "detergent capabilities" means the ability to fight dirt, grime etc and delay sludge formation. If that is the case, it would be contradictory to say that we need to stick to the same oil change interval as mineral oils. Most cars manufactured in the 21st century and operated on synthetic oils globally survived well on 15000 mile change intervals. I am a first time user of Shell Helix Fully synthetic but I know a couple of people whose odometers are now reading 11K kms and 6K kms for the second time in less than 5 years and their cars saw merely 6 or 7 oil changes, thanks to Mobil FS. In the end, I think it would be just a question of changing oil when the engine 'feels' rough and the amount of money you've got that month/week . People stretched Castrol magnatec to 5K kms beyond the change interval and are still happy with the way their cars move. Personally, I'd change my synthetic oil every 15K-16K kms. To each, his own.
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Old 10th February 2013, 00:19   #3692
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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And thus this debate continues. Most cars manufactured in the 21st century and operated on synthetic oils globally survived well on 15000 mile change intervals. Personally, I'd change my synthetic oil every 15K-16K kms. To each, his own.
Please give me an example of an Indian car (regardless of make) that recommends an oil change every 15,000 miles (24,000 kms). You are probably talking of cars in the west that are run on very different roads and in different climatic conditions. Please read this:

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...Intervals.aspx

And I quote:

"Oil change intervals can be as short as 3,000 miles or as long 15,000 miles on some new cars. We recommend that you follow the oil and filter change frequencies shown in your owner's manual, especially under the warranty period. With Mobil 1s high-performance reserves, you can have the confidence to go the full mileage or timeframe recommended by the vehicle manufacturer. Mobil 1 is especially suitable for the latest vehicles with extended drain intervals or vehicles with oil monitoring systems that vary oil drain intervals."

I go by what my car manufacturer specifies in the maintenance schedule not hearsay. Not sure which car you drive but I believe the manufacturer knows the car better than anybody else.

I have seen people using the dipstick, putting a drop of oil on their forefinger and rubbing it between the thumb, confidently exclaiming the oil is good to go for another x thousand kms. It's as scientific as estimating tyre pressure by sidewall appearance, kicking the sidewall or pressing it in with the thumb.

But you are right, to each his own.

Cheers!

Last edited by R2D2 : 10th February 2013 at 00:22.
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Old 10th February 2013, 07:44   #3693
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Please give me an example of an Indian car (regardless of make) that recommends an oil change every 15,000 miles (24,000 kms). You are probably talking of cars in the west that are run on very different roads and in different climatic conditions.
Would be interested to see what the manufacturers say. What about Volkswagen Passat or Audi's with the TDI engine? When I drove those in Europe some years ago, intervals were around 30.000 kilometers and they used long life oil.

Also, these cars had maintenance interval indicators. There was no prescribed interval perse. You took the car to the dealer when the maintenance indicator told you to do. In practice it turned out around every 30K. For me having these long times between services was very relevant. I drove 100.000 km per year. That was three service stops per year. At a 5000 km interval that would have been 20 service stops per year!

The dealer always told me that the on board electronics 'measured' the quality of the oil. Never really believed that. I think the electronics just run a few simple algorithm looking at number of starts, duration of each journey, ambient temperature, fuel usage, speed, odometer and such. Based on the oil properties and known degradation curves, you should be able to work out some sort of algorithm that tells you when your engine oil change is up.

Maybe they did have specific "oil quality" sensors? I don't know, would be interesting to understand.

Now here's an interesting thought: If all cars on our roads would be equipped with a "change oil now" indicator that would be based on oil quality condition, what are we going to discuss on this forum when it comes to oil? Lets hope that technology is a long time coming!

Jeroen
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Old 10th February 2013, 07:51   #3694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post

Would be interested to see what the manufacturers say. What about Volkswagen Passat or Audi's with the TDI engine? When I drove those in Europe some years ago, intervals were around 30.000 kilometers and they used long life oil.

are we going to discuss on this forum when it comes to oil? Lets hope that technology is a long time coming!

Jeroen
Usage conditions, quality of roads, dust, grime, grit, pollution, stop start traffic, idling, ambient temperature, etc are far higher and generally worse and more extreme here than in the West. I am sure that the combination of all these factors will result in lesser life of our oils and lubricants.

Indeed, driving 15000 kms in Indian conditions might be as stressful for the car as driving 30000 kms in a developed nation would be for the said car.

I prefer to follow the manufacturer recommended oil change intervals and while it may be expensive, I am still very clear that only the best quality of oil is used in my vehicle, as per the manufacturers recommendations.

Last edited by shankar.balan : 10th February 2013 at 07:52.
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Old 10th February 2013, 09:31   #3695
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
Please give me an example of an Indian car (regardless of make) that recommends an oil change every 15,000 miles (24,000 kms). You are probably talking of cars in the west that are run on very different roads and in different climatic conditions. Please read this:

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...Intervals.aspx

And I quote:

"Oil change intervals can be as short as 3,000 miles or as long 15,000 miles on some new cars. We recommend that you follow the oil and filter change frequencies shown in your owner's manual, especially under the warranty period. With Mobil 1s high-performance reserves, you can have the confidence to go the full mileage or timeframe recommended by the vehicle manufacturer. Mobil 1 is especially suitable for the latest vehicles with extended drain intervals or vehicles with oil monitoring systems that vary oil drain intervals."

I go by what my car manufacturer specifies in the maintenance schedule not hearsay. Not sure which car you drive but I believe the manufacturer knows the car better than anybody else.

I have seen people using the dipstick, putting a drop of oil on their forefinger and rubbing it between the thumb, confidently exclaiming the oil is good to go for another x thousand kms. It's as scientific as estimating tyre pressure by sidewall appearance, kicking the sidewall or pressing it in with the thumb.

But you are right, to each his own.

Cheers!
I agree that the car manufacturer knows my car the best and also that my car manufacturer stands to profit with every
trip I make to its authorized service center. I also know that oil companies collaborate with car manufacturers and
dealerships to boost and maintain their sales. Do we not have forums here that discuss steering rattling in i20 and the
absolute failure of Hyundai to fix it and also of serious frauds by dealerships across our country? While the last statement goes off topic, the point I wish to make is that manufacturers' recommendations are not based on absolute
concern for your beloved car only, but also with an eye on your checkbook. That said, I do not wish to promote an absolute
deviation from a prescribed oil change interval. Yes, I read the Mobil link you posted long back and I am aware of the quote you
mentioned but I am also well aware of how people have extended the oil change intervals and lived without hassles, thanks to advanced synthetic oil. Interestingly, no manufacturer mentions anything about synthetic/mineral oil in their manual.
Just the viscosity grade and the interval. Again reverting to your quoted "detergent capabilities" of synthetic oil, does
it not have any impact in keeping the engine cleaner for longer durations than mineral oil? Personally, I do not see any harm in applying my own thinking and researching abilities to the wisdom of my car manufacturer.

Please go through the findings of a state sponsored study and note Finding 2.

http://www.dtsc.ca.gov/TechnologyDev...il-Filters.cfm

Apart from this the internet is full of blogs that discuss the possibility of extending the oil change interval based on
independent studies. Also, I live in Bangalore, which though fairly dusty in certain parts, is still not exactly a town in the desert or next to an open cast mine.

Finally I guess we need to stick to what we both agreed on. To each, his own.
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Old 10th February 2013, 10:35   #3696
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Mahindra recommends a 20K interval between oil changes and that too for Mineral oil.That said i have been sticking to 10K intervals for the scorpio.
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Old 10th February 2013, 12:08   #3697
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

At the risk of repeating myself, once the warranty is over I have followed the one year /10,000km protocol for about 25 years with no regret. As for a lot of other debate - let me put a simple question how many of our road cars have engines with re-lines above even 6500rpm? Maybe a very few -some Hondas and a few others. I have also stated that two minerals a year are probably cheaper than one synth fill. The extra cost is just the filter, but the price differential is more than 2x.
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Old 10th February 2013, 13:15   #3698
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Would be interested to see what the manufacturers say. What about Volkswagen Passat or Audi's with the TDI engine? When I drove those in Europe some years ago, intervals were around 30.000 kilometers and they used long life oil.

Also, these cars had maintenance interval indicators. There was no prescribed interval perse. You took the car to the dealer when the maintenance indicator told you to do. In practice it turned out around every 30K. For me having these long times between services was very relevant. I drove 100.000 km per year. That was three service stops per year. At a 5000 km interval that would have been 20 service stops per year!

The dealer always told me that the on board electronics 'measured' the quality of the oil. Never really believed that. I think the electronics just run a few simple algorithm looking at number of starts, duration of each journey, ambient temperature, fuel usage, speed, odometer and such. Based on the oil properties and known degradation curves, you should be able to work out some sort of algorithm that tells you when your engine oil change is up.

Maybe they did have specific "oil quality" sensors? I don't know, would be interesting to understand.

Now here's an interesting thought: If all cars on our roads would be equipped with a "change oil now" indicator that would be based on oil quality condition, what are we going to discuss on this forum when it comes to oil? Lets hope that technology is a long time coming!

Jeroen
That's right from what little I have read on the 'net these oil change/maintenance required indicators measure the operational parameters of the car just as you mentioned instead of qualitatively analysing the oil. With current advances in technology may be a car, especially from the high end European marques, has sensors that can actually do this job. And we have extended drain oils too that are probably used in many cars today that is why they recommend change intervals of upto 24K kms (15K miles)

Car owners in some countries like the US can contact specialist labs and reports generated to analyse the health of the engine, presence of sludge, metals, engine oil longevity, among other parameters.

I am sure that as an ex marine engineer your shipping organisation (my Dad was in shipping too) may have utilised their services to ascertain optimum oil change intervals for diesel prime movers/generators, possibly in collaboration with engine manufacturers service engineers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
Usage conditions, quality of roads, dust, grime, grit, pollution, stop start traffic, idling, ambient temperature, etc are far higher and generally worse and more extreme here than in the West. I am sure that the combination of all these factors will result in lesser life of our oils and lubricants.

Indeed, driving 15000 kms in Indian conditions might be as stressful for the car as driving 30000 kms in a developed nation would be for the said car.

I prefer to follow the manufacturer recommended oil change intervals and while it may be expensive, I am still very clear that only the best quality of oil is used in my vehicle, as per the manufacturers recommendations.
+1

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I agree that the car manufacturer knows my car the best and also that my car manufacturer stands to profit with every trip I make to its authorized service center.
I am glad you acknowledge that the car or engine manufacturer know their product the best.

As for profits, that is the prime objective and driver of any car manufacturer and related organisation. They are not in it for charity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacktop View Post
I also know that oil companies collaborate with car manufacturers and dealerships to boost and maintain their sales.
So what is wrong with that?? Is it a crime to run an enterprise profitably?

BTW car manufacturers also collaborate with oil companies to make tailor made 'brews' for their engines if and when none of the exisiting oils will suit it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacktop View Post
Do we not have forums here that discuss steering rattling in i20 and the absolute failure of Hyundai to fix it and also of serious frauds by dealerships across our country?
What may I ask does your statement have to do with prescribed oil change intervals?

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While the last statement goes off topic, the point I wish to make is that manufacturers' recommendations are not based on absolute concern for your beloved car only, but also with an eye on your checkbook.
You are right, being TBHPians we do love our cars otherwise we wouldnt be here. It also means a large majority of us don't grudge our car an engine oil change at the prescribed intervals. And I don't intend getting it done for free. My car has a pretty low maintanance costs and schedules so I certainly do not mind an oil change ever year or 10K kms (6000 miles).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacktop View Post
That said, I do not wish to promote an absolute deviation from a prescribed oil change interval.
That's a contradictory statement to whatever you have posted here earlier. Either you adhere to prescribed intervals or you dont. But extending it by 2x or 3x certainly does not construe non-deviation.

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Originally Posted by Blacktop View Post
Yes, I read the Mobil link you posted long back and I am aware of the quote you mentioned but I am also well aware of how people have extended the oil change intervals and lived without hassles, thanks to advanced synthetic oil. .
That's an owners prerogative but not a recommended practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacktop View Post
Interestingly, no manufacturer mentions anything about synthetic/mineral oil in their manual.
Really? Then you need to check VW/Skoda/Audi/BMW/Mercedes Benz/Toyota/Honda service and owners manuals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacktop View Post
Personally, I do not see any harm in applying my own thinking and researching abilities to the wisdom of my car manufacturer..
Right!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacktop View Post
Please go through the findings of a state sponsored study and note Finding 2. http://www.dtsc.ca.gov/TechnologyDev...lters.cfm Also, I live in Bangalore, which though fairly dusty in certain parts, is still not exactly a town in the desert or next to an open cast mine.
Dear Blacktop, I am aware of extended drain intervals in the US. But once again you point to findings of a California State Govt body whose suggestions are not applicable to us living in India! And yes Bangalore isn't a dusty desert/open cast mine but it is sure no California or the US either. And let me tell you BLR's stop and go traffic is terrible, one of the worst I have seen in this country.

Let's end this discussion here.

Cheers!

Last edited by R2D2 : 10th February 2013 at 13:17.
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Old 10th February 2013, 15:07   #3699
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

I am glad you acknowledge that the car or engine manufacturer know their product the best.

As for profits, that is the prime objective and driver of any car manufacturer and related organisation. They are not in it for charity.


So what is wrong with that?? Is it a crime to run an enterprise profitably?

BTW car manufacturers also collaborate with oil companies to make tailor made 'brews' for their engines if and when none of the exisiting oils will suit it.


It certainly does not hurt me if the auto industry makes good profits. Also, if I and several others on this forum choose to not be too charitable to the auto industry and make our own informed decisions based on experience and research, I do not see(to use your own words) any 'crime' in that.

An example: A car is good with 12K kms (mineral)oil change intervals but the manufacturer recommends 10K kms considering its profitability(which I do not grudge or object to!!); the car owner pushes this to 16K kms through fully synthetic oil and the car still runs brilliantly. He repeats this thrice and still the same result. What conclusion should the car owner draw then? Keep sticking to 10000km intervals? All I am asking for is to not stop thinking at your owner's manual.


What may I ask does your statement have to do with prescribed oil change intervals?

Perhaps you failed to read the immediate next statement. I specifically mentioned the words "Off topic" and my intent in using that statement. It was a dig at the automobile manufacturers' inability to understand its own cars.

You are right, being TBHPians we do love our cars otherwise we wouldnt be here. It also means a large majority of us don't grudge our car an engine oil change at the prescribed intervals. And I don't intend getting it done for free. My car has a pretty low maintanance costs and schedules so I certainly do not mind an oil change ever year or 10K kms (6000 miles).


Sure. Since we love our cars, we spend hours researching cars on the net and also discussing with experienced mechanics about what is best for our cars. I am sure many of us agree to think beyond what the manufacturer prescribes and some choose to leave the thinking to the auto manufacturer.

That's a contradictory statement to whatever you have posted here earlier. Either you adhere to prescribed intervals or you dont. But extending it by 2x or 3x certainly does not construe non-deviation.

Since you would prefer to go by the letter in previous posts, I do not see a single place where I have asked for extending the prescribed service interval by 3 times! All through I am quoting a 1.5x or slightly higher extension through fully synthetic oils only. In this case, I'll quote you "better detergent capabilities". Hence the extension.

That's an owners prerogative but not a recommended practice.

Hence my insistence.."to each his own".

Dear Blacktop, I am aware of extended drain intervals in the US. But once again you point to findings of a California State Govt body whose suggestions are not applicable to us living in India! And yes Bangalore isn't a dusty desert/open cast mine but it is sure no California or the US either. And let me tell you BLR's stop and go traffic is terrible, one of the worst I have seen in this country.


Dear R2D2, you seem to be familiar with high end German cars and maybe you have lived in the USA too. You ought to then know that California is essentially a desert. Parts of that state have recorded the highest temperatures on the planet and summer dust storms are common, as are cars plying the interstate in those conditions. It may therefore come as no surprise to you that we operate in equally bad conditions. Hence the specific choice of the Californian study.

Let's end this discussion here.

You mean with you making the last reply?
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Old 10th February 2013, 17:25   #3700
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

[quote=R2D2;3037609
Car owners in some countries like the US can contact specialist labs and reports generated to analyse the health of the engine, presence of sludge, metals, engine oil longevity, among other parameters.

I am sure that as an ex marine engineer your shipping organisation (my Dad was in shipping too) may have utilised their services to ascertain optimum oil change intervals for diesel prime movers/generators, possibly in collaboration with engine manufacturers service engineers.
[/QUOTE]

That's right, in the merchant navy we sent in oil samples of all auxiliary and main engines. For the reasons as you stated. Some of the ships I sailed on also had very large bulk compressor and I seem to recall we sent out oil samples for those as well.

Indeed, in the US you can get you car oil tested in a very similar fashion. The US car forums are full of posts whether this is useful or not. Average cost was somewhere around $ 45-- or so, and most cars will get a decent enough oil and filter change for that. I never did it, just doesn't make sense.

Jeroen
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Old 10th February 2013, 20:11   #3701
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

^^Yes I have worked in the US (Bay Area and W-DC) and know that CA is a desert but you will surely agree comparing driving in CA and India is like comparing driving in Bangalore and Bellary (where the mines are)!

If you think CA and India - the roads, the traffic, quality of fuel, the environment are similar then I have nothing more to say. LOL!

And yes - it is truly to each his own.

Cheers!

Last edited by R2D2 : 10th February 2013 at 20:13.
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Old 10th February 2013, 21:00   #3702
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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^^Yes I have worked in the US (Bay Area and W-DC) and know that CA is a desert but you will surely agree comparing driving in CA and India is like comparing driving in Bangalore and Bellary (where the mines are)!

If you think CA and India - the roads, the traffic, quality of fuel, the environment are similar then I have nothing more to say. LOL!

And yes - it is truly to each his own.

Cheers!
I come from a family of mining and petrochemical engineers and I know where Bellary is. While we often see the level of progress our country has made and the extent of deterioration of the US in the last 5 years, we do not stop ranting about how pathetic out cities are. The average American drives 18000 miles(28000 + kms) each year; if all the dust on the Interstates through Nevada, Texas, Arizona and California somehow manage to stay away from the engines there, then we really have a problem here. Western Europe is a different story altogether but we are comparing a largely arid state in the US with Bangalore and other larger cities in India; that too because of a disagreement over a state sponsored study.

the roads, the traffic, quality of fuel, the environment are similar

If fuel quality is an issue, most people stick to Shell or some reliable PSU outlets. Environment? Well, i have been to seven countries through western Europe, Middle East and the USA and frankly, from the perspective of a car engine, I did not find Bengalore or some other big cities any worse than several parts of the climatically hostile USA.
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Old 11th February 2013, 17:42   #3703
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

What is the experts opinion on Mahindra Maxmile Diesel Engine Lubricant which Mahindra recommend for Scorpios. It is manufactured by Servo - Indianoil against Shell earlier.

Is it good enough to last the recommended 10,000 KM. My guess is that Castrol CRB Turbo is a much superior product.
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Old 11th February 2013, 17:53   #3704
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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What is the experts opinion on Mahindra Maxmile Diesel Engine Lubricant which Mahindra recommend for Scorpios. It is manufactured by Servo - Indianoil against Shell earlier.

Is it good enough to last the recommended 10,000 KM. My guess is that Castrol CRB Turbo is a much superior product.
Engine Oil Drain Intervals are 20K for the Scorpio Mhawk.
Mahindra Maximile is good enough for 10K kms,have faced absolutely no issues,even when the drain interval was stretched till 15K kms once in my Scorpio.
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Old 2nd March 2013, 18:12   #3705
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

After much contemplation over which oil(excluding fully synthetic) to use this time, I zeroed on Total Quartz 7000 that is a semi-synthetic.
Well I am observing a substantial increase in performance and response of the engine. It's smooth and crave to be revved high (but I don't).
So that's my experience on it.
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