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Old 26th September 2014, 14:16   #4171
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by khoj View Post
Trolling the internet and wikipedia etc etc is not my cup of tea. One does not know how much of the information is genuine and how much is coming from an armchair expert.
I agree, these days research and doing a google search have become synonymous. Never the less, there is a huge wealth of information out there on the net, but indeed the trick is to figure out whether it is genuine.

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Originally Posted by khoj View Post
The very reason I posted here was to find out what type of pumps are being used in vehicles.
Mostly PD pumps, on regular cars nearly always PD in a wide array of different versions and models

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Originally Posted by khoj View Post
Meanwhile outside of a car's bonnet the World moves on. Industrial production floors are replete with self priming centrifugals, that too without the help of any external priming aides and I am not talking about submerged pumps either.
Sure, self priming centrifugal pumps have been around for decades. I was taught about them when I went through naval academy in the mid '70. The first ship I sailed on, built in the early 60's had them too. A few years ago when I was on holiday on the west coast of the USA I visited a Liberty vessel from the second world war and even they had them.

Lets not quibble over semantics. For me a centrifugal pump is not self priming and it would need some sort of external help to prime, be it vacuum or positioned below the liquid level etc. A self priming centrifugal pump is different. I haven't kept myself up to date but in my days, they did require liquid to be present in the pump house. To put it differently, they did not prime "out of the box'. If they leaked or the liquid in the housing evaporated they would not prime. Maybe there are self priming centrifugal pumps that do not require the housing to be filled with liquid? I would be interested to update myself on those.

I've worked on vessels and rigs where the fire pumps were self priming centrifugal pumps, but they always had external means of creating a vacuum as well just in case.

I'm not sure how well suited those sort of self priming pumps would be for automative application. The design is more complex (thus more expensive) and you still need to ensure its (partial) filled with liquid.

For this who want to see it all in action:



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Originally Posted by khoj View Post
Dozens of pump overhauls later if you feel cavitation is a minor issue compared to frothing then obviously you have not seen a PD pump cavitate. When I said it is like a bomb going off I meant it literally. A cavitating PD pump such as a twin/multi screw, especially a gear pump can not only self destruct (in a matter of minutes) but also take down a fair amount of plumbing with it. The foaming as you called it is destructive for the pumpage rather than the pump. Frothing still happens but now a days these episodes are less frequent compared to how often one sees cavitation. This because more often than not the effects of changes in viscosity on a pd pump's performance are ignored amongst other overlooked criterion. Again before this is generally applied to vehicles, I am stating this w.r.t. industrial applications.
I am no expert but I don't think cavitation by itself will destroy a pump. It has to be in combination with pressure surges.

I have read a bit about cavitation in PD pumps and actually by and large it was found to be not that harmful in experimental/laboratory setup. Never the less, manufacturers are careful and several standards exist to ensure correct suction pressure is maintained to avoid any possible damage.

Don't believe everything you find on the internet, but I do believe this to be a genuine and very enlightening, fairly recent, article on cavitation with PD pumps.

http://turbolab.tamu.edu/proc/pumppr...nt%20Pumps.pdf

Cavitation does occur more often than foaming. If anything because temperature (thus viscosity) plays a big role for the foaming to happen in the first place.

That first ship I mentioned earlier spend the first fifteen years of its life in tropical waters. Nice and warm. But when I joined her, we went to Japan for the first time, during winter and we had all these problems with our hydraulic cranes, hydraulic winches, hydraulic deck hinges etc.

Jeroen
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Old 27th September 2014, 09:23   #4172
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Something just struck me, PD is the normal abbreviation for Pumpe Duse, which was used in the first Octavia in India, until they switched to Common Rail.

It is still very common in big engines. So maybe we should refrain from using PD here.
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Old 28th September 2014, 16:06   #4173
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Below is what I received from the GM @ MSM and per the gentleman the oil pump design is similar across their model range.
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Originally Posted by bullrun87 View Post
So what did maruti's GM say? Do all maruti's use the same type of PD pump?

Yes and the snaps from MSM confirm that.
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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Mostly PD pumps, on regular cars nearly always PD in a wide array of different versions and models
ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil-img20140927wa007.jpg

ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil-img20140927wa010.jpg

ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil-img20140927wa011.jpg

ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil-img20140927wa009.jpg

ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil-img20140927wa006.jpg

It's a gear within a gear or should one call it a lobe within a lobe design? The central element is mounted off axis and as it rotates the enmeshed elements open up to create negative pressure/vacuum and suck in the oil which fills up the cavities as they open up and then the subsequent meshing creates higher pressure thereby ejecting the oil via the discharge port. Interestingly there seems to be a liner in place too. The basic pumping principle is similar to the snap posted by Jeroen earlier only the pumping element has changed from vane to gear/lobe.



Yes the abbreviations are similar but is not the Pump Duse a way of injecting fuel rather than lubricating?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Something just struck me, PD is the normal abbreviation for Pumpe Duse, which was used in the first Octavia in India, until they switched to Common Rail.

It is still very common in big engines. So maybe we should refrain from using PD here.

Last edited by khoj : 28th September 2014 at 16:15.
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Old 28th September 2014, 22:57   #4174
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Just to add, the pump is showed is not a pub pump. You will find these type of very simple impeller pumps in a lot of marine applications, e.g. on outboard engines, but also on small marine diesels.

there is a wide variety of (PD) pumps. Wikipedia does quite a good job of listing most of them, with a few animated pictures of how they work, including the impeller one i showed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pump

Jeroen
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Old 30th October 2014, 16:58   #4175
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Default Re: Ritz ddis -excess engine noise due to synthetic oil change

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Originally Posted by motorworks View Post
HI Folks,

Have a query. My friend who has a RITZ LDI has switched to synthetic oil-- MOBIL Delvac 5W40{3.1 ltrs} at the 12k service. After this oil change he has covered about 5k, and even though there is a noticeable imporvement in performance and mileage, he feels that the engine noise has gone up. Is this is a normal feature of synthetic oil? I myself have a DDIS Dzire and have hesitated in switching to Synthetic oil due to the high cost.

Would appreciate your feedback.

Thanks,
Motorworks
Hi Motorworks,
Did your friend go for engine flush prior to oil change from mineral to synthetic? And the old engine oil must be drained for about 15 minutes before new oil is put into it. 5w40 and 15w40 must never be mixed. Due to this reason I fear using 5w40 after using 15w40 for so many years. And basically one must use a particular brand of oil even though grade is same across many brands. You must stick to MGDO CASTROL only for Ritz Diesel. Basically the turbo in Ritz is in a slightly sedate state of tune compared to the swift/Dzire. So the best Engine oil for the Ritz is Castrol Magnatec 15w40. The only thing that creates a doubt in my mind is-Is MGDO Castrol 15w40 exactly the same as Castrol Magnatec 15w40? On the big Castrol drum you do not find anything written on it.
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Old 2nd November 2014, 19:28   #4176
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by dreamz91 View Post
Guys, how do we identify counterfeit oils? I tried searching for the forum but couldn't find much about identifying, only recommendations to buy genuine oils.

I'm trying to purchase Mobil-1 synth. A couple of multi-brand service centers stock it and are quoting Rs.1150-1200/Lt, close to the MRP. It is available from JC Road at around Rs.950/Lt, so, I asked the these guys to reduce the price, but, they didn't reduce by much. But, one of the service center guys gave me a call and told me he can source it from the dealer directly and sell it to me, that it won't be possible to reduce the price if he sells through the service center. He is ready to sell it at the same price I can get from JC road. I'd really like if I can buy from someone locally without needing to go to JC road everytime I want to purchase engine oil. But, I'm a little worried about the oil being genuine. He claims it is.
Never buy oils from local shops. They always stock counterfeit oil. It is better to buy oil from the genuine distributor only. The worst thing about oil is that it will show its effects after driving for some time. My colleague was tricked once. They had put Total 15w40 3000 in his diesel swift. The engine started sounding gruff after some kilometers. He immediately changed back to Castrol MGDO 15w40 and the engine started singing again.
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Old 13th November 2014, 22:02   #4177
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Guys,

I have documented my experience on the following:

1) Shifting from FIAT dealer supplied oils to Magnatec
2) Shifting from Magnatec to Shell Helix Ultra 5W40
3) Shifting from Honda Genuine oil to Shell Helix HX-7

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...ml#post3579824 (Cosmetic makeover of an ol' Fiat Palio 1.6 GTX. EDIT: Now @ 128K kms and 11 years)

Documenting it here since this experience may be useful to others.
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Old 17th February 2015, 00:24   #4178
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by adit mishra View Post
Never buy oils from local shops. They always stock counterfeit oil. It is better to buy oil from the genuine distributor only. The worst thing about oil is that it will show its effects after driving for some time. My colleague was tricked once. They had put Total 15w40 3000 in his diesel swift. The engine started sounding gruff after some kilometers. He immediately changed back to Castrol MGDO 15w40 and the engine started singing again.
I second that. I did come across a local dealer who was having synthetic oil at 400 Rs./litre of Mobil! And the dealer shop was had a board of Motul lubricant specialist shop written all over it. I asked again using various different questions and he was doubly confident about that. He was insisting that synthetic oils at approx. 1000 Rs./litre are purely due to brand value. And to add to it, he was selling the oil out of seal open branded cans!!
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Old 17th February 2015, 11:45   #4179
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by ameyawaghmare View Post
I second that. I did come across a local dealer who was having synthetic oil at 400 Rs./litre of Mobil! And the dealer shop was had a board of Motul lubricant specialist shop written all over it. I asked again using various different questions and he was doubly confident about that. He was insisting that synthetic oils at approx. 1000 Rs./litre are purely due to brand value. And to add to it, he was selling the oil out of seal open branded cans!!

Faced a Similar Situation here.
A dealer tried to sell me Gulf fully synthetic oil for 1200 - 4L can! This was packed in a Golden colored can.
But in the Gulf website I don't see this oil mentioned anywhere!
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Old 17th February 2015, 14:26   #4180
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Faced a Similar Situation here.
A dealer tried to sell me Gulf fully synthetic oil for 1200 - 4L can! This was packed in a Golden colored can.
But in the Gulf website I don't see this oil mentioned anywhere!
Hi,

My car's second service is due in a week and I'm trying my best to source genuine Shell Helix ultra 5W-40 for my car. The shell petrol bunks are quoting an insanely high 5200/- for 4 litre can since they can sell at MRP only and can't give any discount.

Could you please tell me where I can source genuine Mobil 1 or Shell from any decent retailer/distributor in Bangalore?

I live in CV raman nagar and my car is Hyundai Grand i10 Petrol.

Thanks a ton!
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Old 17th February 2015, 15:44   #4181
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

^^ Try their online portal. There is a thread running on TBHP.

I buy all Shell oils only from my neighborhood Shell pump as I am worried about fakes. Though I pay MRP, it is peace of mind. After all, I am going to buy only once a year.

If I may suggest so, buy Helix Ultra only if your car will run the distance stipulated by the car manufacturer before the next oil change (usually 10k KM or one year, whichever is earlier). Don't believe stories that synthetics can be changed after 20k KM or two years, etc etc.

Mine runs only 5k KM a year, so I stick with HX-7.
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Old 17th February 2015, 18:51   #4182
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by Parth46 View Post
Hi,

My car's second service is due in a week and I'm trying my best to source genuine Shell Helix ultra 5W-40 for my car.

Could you please tell me where I can source genuine Mobil 1 or Shell from any decent retailer/distributor in Bangalore?

I live in CV raman nagar and my car is Hyundai Grand i10 Petrol.
How many KM's has your car run ? do keep in mind that if you carry your own OIL Hyundai Service may and will surely void your warranty stating that customer got his own oil. (Void Engine warranty)

For this reason stick with the oil they provide and change this frequently say every 5000-6000KM along with the oil Filter. This will keep your Engine healthy and not void your warranty.

IF you still want Shell then locally you can source the real deal for Rs- 3600- 3700. Depending on the dealer. If you still want to buy this PM me I will pass the contact information to you or post here for everyone.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
^^
I buy all Shell oils only from my neighborhood Shell pump as I am worried about fakes. Though I pay MRP, it is peace of mind. After all, I am going to buy only once a year.

If I may suggest so, buy Helix Ultra only if your car will run the distance stipulated by the car manufacturer before the next oil change (usually 10k KM or one year, whichever is earlier). Don't believe stories that synthetics can be changed after 20k KM or two years, etc etc.

Mine runs only 5k KM a year, so I stick with HX-7.
Gansan, Even the Shell bunks sometimes stock fake oils! They are often swapped for the fake ones and the real ones are sold outside.
See how big thefake oil racket runs!
http://www.zerotohundred.com/newforu...ngine-oil.html

Thing will be much worse here

You are correct about the HX7- this is a semi Synthetic oil. This oil is good enough for most cars. Another Good option is the Castrol Magnatec series of OIL. Comes in 5w30, 10W40 and 15W50 grades.
I agree, there is no way you can run 20,000KM or 2 years even on the best synthetic oils in our driving conditions.

On an unrelated note - Take the air Filter.
Manual says replace once in 2 years or 20,000 KM. Seeing how dusty the driving conditions are I get this changed once every year without fail.
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Old 17th February 2015, 19:08   #4183
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Thanks Gansan and Captain Slow. My car odo is currently at 9K and second service is due next week. Service interval is 10k/12 months whichever is earlier.

Regarding the warranty part, Hyundai's customer care portal clearly mentions that either Indian Oil Servo (provided by HASS) or Shell Helix is acceptable engine oil, provided the grade is correct.

I also called Advaith hyundai a few days ago and they confirmed to me that I can bring my own oil if I want to go for fully-synthetic as they stock only mineral and semi-synthetic oil.

Please refer to this link : http://www.customercare.hyundai.co.i...Petrol-23.aspx

I plan on carrying the printout of this page to the HASS when I go in for servicing to make sure they don't create any tantrums.

I would very much like to use fully-synth and would request Captain Slow to share contact details of genuine dealers with me.

Thanks and let me know if this info is enough and other details right for me to go the fully- synth way. I don't mind paying the MRP at the bunk since I agree that it's once a year for peace of mind, but in that case would very much like to know that it's 100% genuine.

Cheers,
Parth
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Old 17th February 2015, 19:37   #4184
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Could someone explain the benefits of using synthetic oil in a DI engine like Pajero SFX or a Bolero DI?

In the case of Pajero SFX, manufacturer's recommendation is Mineral.

Even if we move to Synthetic - the engine oil change interval remain 6 months (in Pajero's case).

So - not sure if using a synthetic oil in a DI engine will it;

1) keep the engine healthy in the long run?
2) translate into increasing fuel efficiency?
3) help increase the oil change interval from 6 months to say 10 months or 12 months?

Are there any other direct or in-direct benefits of using synthetic oil in a DI engine?

Is it worthwhile spending almost 3 to 4 times over the mineral oil?
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Old 17th February 2015, 22:46   #4185
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by Captain Slow View Post
Gansan, Even the Shell bunks sometimes stock fake oils! They are often swapped for the fake ones and the real ones are sold outside.
Not the one I am referring to! It is directly under the thumb of Shell marketing guys (model, high visibility station, with full fledged oil change facility). If I can't trust them, I can't trust anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Slow View Post
On an unrelated note - Take the air Filter.
Manual says replace once in 2 years or 20,000 KM. Seeing how dusty the driving conditions are I get this changed once every year without fail.
Me too, once a year; which is < 5000 KM. I replace the gear oil, coolant and plugs every two years - < 10K KM. I don't mind the expense, it is peace of mind!

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Originally Posted by Parth46 View Post
My car odo is currently at 9K and second service is due next week.
If I were you, I will wait for another 9k KM or so before switching to synthetic.
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