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Old 25th January 2016, 19:27   #4351
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by straight6 View Post
Shell only has a mineral 5w30 here in the form of HX5. Mobil has the Super 3000 semi synthetic which I've bought for my next change.
Shell Helix Ultra is their range of fully synth oils. Available on Amazon it seems. http://www.amazon.in/gp/product/B00QK6Q6GK
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Old 25th January 2016, 21:22   #4352
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Attaching the screenshots from the owners manual for the benefit of all. Till last year the previous owner was using 5w30 mineral oil and recently I got the 5w30 synthetic oil filled during the annual service, since I didn't wanted to change the grade preferred by the manufacturer.

Yep I know that manual having owned the 9G Corolla before I bought the Altis. However the Altis' manual does not specify a 'preferred' viscosity leaving it to the owner to decide depending on the ambient temperature that the car will experience in a particular geographic location.

5W-30 or 10W-30 are preferred grades, fuel saving due to the lower viscous drag (as I call it) on the engine. In fact Toyota's dealers shifted from filling 15W-40 to 5W-30 (mineral) some 4 years ago. In synthetic, 5W-30, 10W-30 or 5W-40 (this is same as Toyota's synthetic) are perfectly OK to use. But I still have a question mark over 0W-40.
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Old 25th January 2016, 22:14   #4353
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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But I still have a question mark over 0W-40.

To my knowledge, there is no problem in using a lower viscosity than which is recommended / preferred by the manufacturer. In this case, since the preferred viscosity is 5W, using a 0W grade oil will make no harm. In fact, in places like Delhi or other places in India where there would be freezing temperatures, 0W grade oil would be recommended since the car would perform well in those conditions due to thinner oil.

Further, 30 or 40 in oil grade represents thickness of the oil in 100 Degree C. As I understand the oil should be thick enough at the higher temperatures. Whereas, 30 is thinner in higher temperatures compared to 40 grade. Hence, I see no problem in using 0W40 in Corolla as well (even though the same is not mentioned in the manual).

Let me know if I am wrong here.
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Old 25th January 2016, 23:54   #4354
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by KK_HakunaMatata View Post
To my knowledge, there is no problem in using a lower viscosity than which is recommended / preferred by the manufacturer. In this case, since the preferred viscosity is 5W, using a 0W grade oil will make no harm. In fact, in places like Delhi or other places in India where there would be freezing temperatures, 0W grade oil would be recommended since the car would perform well in those conditions due to thinner oil..
You have a point about temp variations in parts of Northern India that are in the extreme during summer and winter. Pune experiences more moderate temperatures.

But I'd like to point out as per the chart in the owners manual, that 15W-40 can be used in temps well below freezing, i.e. -10 C (good enough the North Indian plains) with thinner oils including 5W-30 usable in far lower temperatures, say in the mountains. But since the 5W-30 can be used when temps are between -29 to over 38 C, a huge temp range, it would be this oil that I'd call an "all season" oil

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Hence, I see no problem in using 0W40 in Corolla as well (even though the same is not mentioned in the manual). Let me know if I am wrong here.
I don't think there's a right or wrong here. One has to make a choice of oil depending on the ambient temperature, expected engine loads, driving styles etc. What is clear from the manual is the min viscosity at ambient/cold temp should be at least 5W and the max at operating temperature up to 50 with API classification of SM or SN. Since 0W is not specified I hesitate to use it.
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Old 26th January 2016, 05:41   #4355
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Something that is useful to remember - the higher the difference between the two W numbers, the more susceptible the oil to losing its anti wear property in use and therefore more frequent need to change it. For example, all else being equal, it is easier to make a long lasting 15W40 oil than a 0W40 one.

Another example of there being no free lunches. The apparently better "all season" oil comes with a technology limitation driven price tag.
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Old 26th January 2016, 08:16   #4356
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
Something that is useful to remember - the higher the difference between the two W numbers, the more susceptible the oil to losing its anti wear property in use and therefore more frequent need to change it. For example, all else being equal, it is easier to make a long lasting 15W40 oil than a 0W40 one.

Another example of there being no free lunches. The apparently better "all season" oil comes with a technology limitation driven price tag.
I'm afraid that is completely incorrect. 15W40 is pretty much conventional oil whereas 0W40 is essentially Group III/IV synthetic.

But, if this conspiracy theory hour, I'm not going to argue.
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Old 26th January 2016, 09:44   #4357
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

My experience in the UK (1973-76) was that with my Escort L I had to switch to Esso Uniflo which I think was SAE10 (or was it 5) W50. Dropping one grade in the low end made all the difference between the car cranking or not. So yes, grade does matter. Mid you it was South of England, so not as bad as parts of Scotland.
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Old 26th January 2016, 10:05   #4358
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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I'm afraid that is completely incorrect. 15W40 is pretty much conventional oil whereas 0W40 is essentially Group III/IV synthetic.

But, if this conspiracy theory hour, I'm not going to argue.
LOL.

If you are interested, research subjects such as shear stability of the polymers used to achieve multi grade viscosity criteria. Alternatively, and probably the simpler thing to do is follow the car maker's manual.

Unless the car is being used for things that aren't envisaged by the maker.
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Old 26th January 2016, 11:46   #4359
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
Something that is useful to remember - the higher the difference between the two W numbers, the more susceptible the oil to losing its anti wear property in use and therefore more frequent need to change it. For example, all else being equal, it is easier to make a long lasting 15W40 oil than a 0W40 one.

Another example of there being no free lunches. The apparently better "all season" oil comes with a technology limitation driven price tag.
I am no petro-tech expert but does this apply mostly to mineral oil where additives are used in large quantities to extract the expected performance, or also to synthetics that are, well, AFAIK engineered from ground up to retain anti shear properties even under high stress conditions?

For e.g. I'd bet on a 5W-30 synthetic handling stressful conditions (load, duty cycles, engine speeds) far better than a 5W-30 mineral. Which is why synths are recommended for use in run-of-the-mill cars that are probably experience such conditions. While premium and exotic cars use only synthetics AFAIK.

I do not say synths don't degenerate but handle harsh conditions far better than mineral oils especially if you follow the recommended drain intervals, not the oil shop owner's 'Saab, you can use this oil for 20K kms' ill advised comment.
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Old 26th January 2016, 12:41   #4360
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

It applies equally - the viscosity modifying polymers are the culprit in both places. Which isn't to say that it is a rule that a 10W30 will always be more "durable" than a 0W30, just that it will be more challenging to make a 0W30 that is equally durable; it is quite possible that some makes do this successfully. Hard to say which do and which do not.
The point I am making is that because 10 here is "good", and perfectly adequate for Indian use, does not mean that 0 is automatically better. Or that if the maker specifies 10W30, 0W40 is automatically better. There is a potential downside to the 0W40 - note again the word potential.
A long time ago, Mobil had a 5W50 synthetic in the market. Sound likes a fantastic oil for global use, but it would pose a challenge to the additive package used to not have the oil thinning out to much below what a 50 application would demand, sooner in the life of the oil than desirable, with adverse effects on the engine, . Although I don't know if this was the case, it is quite likely the reason why Mobil don't make this oil anymore - afaik.
Moral of the story is just this: not to run after a wider spread that your driving conditions need, just because it is available in the market.
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Old 26th January 2016, 19:33   #4361
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Anybody tried this oil yet? Seems to be a German firm with a JV in India.

http://www.flipkart.com/bizol-grenvo...mebqczdgmhqn8k
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Old 26th January 2016, 19:43   #4362
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Anybody tried this oil yet? Seems to be a German firm with a JV in India.
German or not, for the kind of money charged I'd place my faith in the tried and tested Mobil 1 or Shell Helix Ultra
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Old 26th January 2016, 22:50   #4363
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Anybody tried this oil yet? Seems to be a German firm with a JV in India.

http://www.flipkart.com/bizol-grenvo...mebqczdgmhqn8k
It is most probably a white labelled synthetic lubricant sourced from a oil company/lube blender and marketed under this bizol brand.
Honestly, If it was MUCH cheaper than the mainstream brands, I would consider it. But, in the current market, I would recommend this:
http://www.flipkart.com/shell-5w-40-...mea6gmmkhr7vbq

Save your bucks.
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Old 26th January 2016, 23:19   #4364
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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It is most probably a white labelled synthetic lubricant sourced from a oil company/lube blender and marketed under this bizol brand.
Honestly, If it was MUCH cheaper than the mainstream brands, I would consider it. But, in the current market, I would recommend this:
http://www.flipkart.com/shell-5w-40-...mea6gmmkhr7vbq

Save your bucks.
Any experience buying these off flipkart / amazon? I am seeing a few horror stories in amazon comments about switched labels etc, and none of these appear to be ws-retail (flipkart's inhouse retailer) or fulfilled by amazon (two or three are tagged fulfilled by amazon in a search but once you click the item that doesn't appear). So I'm cautious.

Is helix ultra commonly available in local lube / oil shops and shell pumps?

Thanks!
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Old 26th January 2016, 23:56   #4365
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Any experience buying these off flipkart / amazon?
Is helix ultra commonly available in local lube / oil shops and shell pumps?

Thanks!
I am still wary of buying oil online or at unknown dealers simply because of the risk of getting a fake or adulterated product. This is thanks to my experience with Castrol products.

I have been hot footing it to the distributor to purchase an annual supply of Shell engine oil for my cars.

There's one retailer on Amazon India (E Reliable Deals) who has ~100% ratings. See here:

http://www.amazon.in/gp/offer-listin...3641198&sr=8-4

He seems a slightly lower risk. But there's no saying what people have bought off him and awarded him a 5 star rating.

Shell Helix is available at many oil dealers but if you want synthetic call to inquire. It may be on order only.

PS - Feedback on purchasing of that oil also seems +ve. Yeah. SHU is available at their pumps but you'll pay full retail price. Buy it at an oil dealer where it's available a lot cheaper.

Last edited by R2D2 : 26th January 2016 at 23:59.
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