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Old 22nd October 2006, 19:53   #31
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Ram ji, there are millions of cars around that have been forever running Mineral oils, for lakhs of kms, and very well so too. However the advantages of Synthetic oils have been defined well for quite some time now. It boils down to a matter of cost. If you can afford to pamper your engine a little bit, why not? If you can't, toh bhi theek hain, a lot of people don't and I think engines have enough tolerances to guzzle other than gold too.

Also, I think most of us who are under the "three decade driving experience" limit, whether on the forum or around the world would not appreciate being referred to as "kid gurus." While we all appreciate the obvious benefits of experience, there is much to learn from younger ones also. Not preaching and all, but, unless you can disqualify anybody's claims with adequate justification, I don't see anything wrong with taking to anything written by under 30 year olds.
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Old 22nd October 2006, 22:25   #32
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Question Synthetic in WagonR

I have a 2004 WagonR done 22000Kms in the ODO. Please suggest whether changing to synthetic oil would

1. Improve performance (i do not mean sports performance or anything, just plain driving performance)
2. Improve mileage (kmpl)
3. Improve Engine life.

What are the better brands available in Bangalore and their prices (I think WagonR requires 3.5 Liters)
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Old 22nd October 2006, 22:46   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram
Having driven over three-decades without ever using synthetic oils (that's longer than the age of some kid-gurus) and never has any of my engines gone leaky, my recommendation is
If you havent 'EVER' used synthetic oils in 30-odd years,

1. You do not have an open mind. Not even one thats open to try new stuff. Some of the kids here may not be 30 years old but may have tried things that you've never thought of.

2. How come you speak with such authority on something that - by your own admission - you have never used ?


Ram - old is not necessarily gold. I would think an apology is called for.
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Old 23rd October 2006, 05:04   #34
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When one's personally experienced "value" for money, that has proved itself over lakhs of kilometers, one doesn't continue to experiment just for the sake of variety.

Perspectives can come from experience, then conjecture and commercial hyperbole can be questioned.

This is not addressed to any specific personality. Let's steer our interchange away from personalities, and towards ideas or concepts shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
...You do not have an open mind...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
...Ram...
...old is not necessarily gold. I would think an apology is called for...
This is a mundane car opinion forum. Don't attack me, nor anybody by name, for trivialities. Focus on logic rather than emotions.

Shall we respect our experience and opinion based on that experience?
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Old 23rd October 2006, 10:14   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram
2) Having driven over three-decades without ever using synthetic oils (that's longer than the age of some kid-gurus) and never has any of my engines gone leaky, my recommendation is:
While the slick-talking marketers continue to try to peddle their slick synthetics to you, Stick to mineral oils, but change the oil and filter without fail every 5,000 km or five months whichever happens earlier for petrol engines, and every 4,000 km or four months for diesel engines!
Ram
Ram,
a) you have not tried a synthetic oil why not try it and then we'd love to hear your opinion.
b) Synthetics are more expensive but last long enough to cover most of the cost. Yet offer better lubrication during startups and stop and go conditions in hot conutries. So in the end, one only gains from using synthetics.
c) if you think that the slick talking marketers can influence a knowledegable public for decades I think you are doing the same public a great disservice.
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Old 23rd October 2006, 10:14   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram
This is a mundane car opinion forum. Don't attack me, nor anybody by name, for trivialities. Focus on logic rather than emotions.

Shall we respect our experience and opinion based on that experience?
Mr Ram,

With all due respect this is the advice section where we give out advice dished out by millions of people worldwide. I do not think TBHP encourages Googled knowledge or opinions from people who have no tried something but would like to comment. You are free to comment on something personally tried out and not what you feel about the same. If you wish speak to the Mods and you are welcome to start a debate in another section. We expect people to be open minded here.

Viper
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Old 23rd October 2006, 13:19   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin
Ram,
a) you have not tried a synthetic oil why not try it and then we'd love to hear your opinion.
b) Synthetics are more expensive but last long enough to cover most of the cost. Yet offer better lubrication during startups and stop and go conditions in hot countries. So in the end, one only gains from using synthetics.
Well put!
It's a good suggestion. I will certainly try out Mobile One on the Baleno, now that it's done the 5000 km break-in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viper
Mr Ram,
With all due respect this is the advice section where we give out advice dished out by millions of people worldwide. You are free to comment on something personally tried out and not what you feel about the same. We expect people to be open minded here.
Viper
I understand your position, Viper. And open-minded is the best way to be.
I will be certainly trying out Mobile One. Using the Google search engine is a great way to read up information on the Internet and I have been on the Web since 1993 using Digital Equipment Corp's Altavista engine. With the tremendous popularity of the Google search engine, the verb 'Google' has become officially part of the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) since the last 3 months.

Last edited by Ram : 23rd October 2006 at 13:38.
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Old 23rd October 2006, 15:51   #38
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Let us talk chemistry.Any organic molecule which is artificially synthesised through the route of chain of chemical reactions under a stipulated temperayure,pressure under the influence of a catalyst(usually in most of the cases)comes under the ambit of synthetic chemistry and hence a synthetic molecule is formed.In contrust,any organic compound which comes out of fractional distillation of crude petrolium or any other organic source compound qualifies to be a natural product.Per se either of these two fails to qualify to be a superior to other just because of difference of pathways of formation.Now,the million dollar question is are we talking of the same target organic molucle coming out of two different systems?Or we are considering different kinds of molecular entities altogether.Once this perspective is clear then the next question comes about solid research findings to support such vital conclusion.In this case just the personal findings of usage might fail to prove something in an unbiased way because of too many other variables.For example, the temperature,the engine parameters etc to name a few.The list could be very long.At least the scientific forum needs a very solid elaborate experimental design,recommended procedures,findings which is statistically validated and finally conclusion.If you have such data we will educate ourselves.Regards,
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Old 23rd October 2006, 16:45   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram
I have been on the Web since 1993 using Digital Equipment Corp's Altavista engine. With the tremendous popularity of the Google search engine
Altavista was launched in Dec 1995. The world's first search engine Webcrawler was launched in April 1994, I first used it in the same month. Never heard of a search engine before that. Sorry guys about
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Old 23rd October 2006, 17:53   #40
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Dear Navin,
With all due regards to you please note that in most of the cases the marketing is a gimmick and if you do not like this word then we will call it as an art wherein the marketer is creating an artificial hallow around the product so that the consumer psyche is motivated enough to at least try the same with enough legal cover to play around.That means we can not definitely prove something is right or wrong because it is circumstantial.Even multinational companies do that.And legally the consumer can do very little.
Let us discuss few examples.HLL's Fair & Lovely cream guarantees changing skin complexion.Do you think it is possible?All it has is some kind of skin bleaching agents to act on skin's melanin pigmentation system to bleach it temporarily.Again,the much publicised Arrow shirt with airconditioning effect wherein they claim the skin breathes.Do you think it is possible?Can a shirt geneate cool air without having a compressure?Is it logical?It is nothing but spcially arranged cellulose fibres allowing air to pass without hampering the texture of the cloth.But such kind of marketing goes on and on.
And Ram ,I think ,has spoken in that perspective although little overtly.Nevertheless,this is a free forum and the initiative by GTO on this topic is definitely very encouraging.At least,it gives us a chance to discuss the topic freely.Regards,
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Old 23rd October 2006, 20:42   #41
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Default Please answer my question :-(

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyper-VTEC
I have a 2004 WagonR done 22000Kms in the ODO. Please suggest whether changing to synthetic oil would

1. Improve performance (i do not mean sports performance or anything, just plain driving performance)
2. Improve mileage (kmpl)
3. Improve Engine life.

What are the better brands available in Bangalore and their prices (I think WagonR requires 3.5 Liters)
Can somebody please answer my questions....
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Old 23rd October 2006, 20:48   #42
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1. What is regular driving performance as opposed to sports performance? Yes, it will improve performance, as we know it.

2. Yes, mileage will improve slightly, but you may not recover the cost of the oil from this.

3. Yes, engine life will also improve, though the jury's still kinda out on this one, given Indian driving conditions.

Shell petrol pumps will have synthetic oils. TAFE Access will also have them. So does RAC in Koramangala.
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Old 23rd October 2006, 21:10   #43
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I do not know about the tests on car engines, but test on all type of machineries (engines and otherwise) have proved it to be better than mineral oils (except in the case you are burning coal or tarcoal - some engines do burn tarcoal and some has been tested with coal slurry).

First answering hyper-vtec:

1. Theoritically yes (but only on test beds). You won't notice it at all.
2. Again theoritically yes but you won't be able to notice it.
3. Yes for sure.

If you are a commercial operator eg operating taxis or trucks etc, then synthetic is no for you. Reason is simple, the increase in cost of lubes is more than the gain in terms of other factors (as per test reports on different machines till now - in future if the prices come down, it may be commericially viable).

But if you are not bothered by costs and just want to increase the life of engine then it is a better oil. The systnetics have better stability, better viscosity index (that is they maintain their "thickness" over a broader temperature range), better detergency (that is they wash down the "dirty things" better than mineral oils). They maintain their oiliness for a longer period.

If you are changing over to synthetic then, as mentioned by GTO, maintain the grade. If you use the thinner grade, then it won't give enough film thickness and strength and if you are using a thicker grade, then the flow of oil will be less and your bearings and cooling for piston etc will be starved of oil.

And you can use synthetics for any type of machine where the mineral oil is used.

And one more thing - if you wan't to go back to mineral oil after using synthetics, you can do so comfortably. Only thing is that you flush the system with mineral oil thoroughly, otherwise you will land in trouble - because synthetics and mineral are not compatible, they form a sludge type thing when mixed. Vice versa, when you are changing over to synthetic, better flush with a synthetic oil or compatible flush, if available.

Last edited by jat : 23rd October 2006 at 21:15.
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Old 23rd October 2006, 21:59   #44
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Friends. Did some more reading up.

There is a really excellent write-up at
http://www.carbibles.com/snakeoil.html

My spin on this is:

Synthetic oils were originally developed for use in gas turbine engines.
Engines that run at 50,000 rpm. The exhaust from a gas turbine is hot enough to roast a motorcyclist behind you.

Synthetics and synthetic blends do offer a wider range of protection than standard petroleum products.

The question is, is it necessary?

This extended range of protection reaches into a temperature and pressure zone virtually impossible to attain inside most engines and transmissions. In other words, while it won't hurt anything - it's just unnecessary.

That is, unless it makes you feel better knowing the extra protection is on board, in which case the added expense may be well justified. So can spending money on a psychiatrist.

As a basic rule of thumb, using the standard engine oil recommended by the manufacturer and changing it about every 3000 miles will afford you all the protection you'll ever need.

Wonder why the author titled his write-up: Snake Oil!
It's commonly a derogatory term for fake, fraudulent, and usually ineffective medicine. Also a metaphor for any hoax product with exaggerated marketing but questionable or unverifiable quality.
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Old 23rd October 2006, 22:04   #45
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This means that basically for the average user it is NOT necessary. Thanks i would re-fill with Castrol GTX. Thanks everyone.
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