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Old 5th July 2007, 13:52   #436
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Originally Posted by Rtech View Post
Motul costs the same as Mobil. Realistically speaking, there is nothing between these top-line oils. Just comes down to your individual preference and more importantly, availability. Motul is almost impossible to find here. They have no official dealers! City Motors keeps Motul, but only in the 0W30 grade. I've been after them to get the 5W40, but doesn't look like that's happening.

No, I am running an OE replacement Pipercorss foam filter.
I hope you are not planning to put 0W30 in your car.
In hot weather it would be suicidal on your engine.
I guess this is one point where we do agree.
BTW one question, do you have any idea about how is an oil rated API-CI4 different from the one rated API-CF4?
The only clue I could find is that API-CI and API-CJ, CJ especially limits the amount of Zinc and Phosphorous in the engine oil.
Since SAE themselves came out with a paper in 1977 or whereabouts talking about the fantastic benefits of Zn and P in engine, some sites say that do not put in API-CJ stick to CH or CI.
Once site also has the tabulation and the text
Quote:
Porscheís recommendation in hand, our initial analysis from 2005 and 2006 found that all recent SH/SJ/SL formulations of Mobil lubricants tested, including Mobil 1, have had similar 0.12-0.14% Zn and P content, which we think is a good thing, but looking closer, Mobil 1 0w40 had somewhat less Zn and P, at 0.10%. Current SM formulations are at the 0.10% level or less. This confirms the industry wide trend of the reduction of Zn and P from motor oils, with the eventual reduction to 0.06-0.08% or even worse, the elimination of these additives, which are essential to an aircooled Porsche engine's longevity.
Many Porsche repair shops have acknowledged that these newest SM and CJ-4 motor oils are not sufficient for protecting any Porsche engine. With longevity and the protection of vital engine components in mind, many shops are recommending the addition of GM's EOS Engine Oil Supplement at every oil change. Shops that used to run M1 in their race cars have either switched to Mobil's synthetic motorcycle oils or have resorted to using premium dino oills, such as Swepco 306 15w40 or Brad Penn Racing 20w50 oils, for their higher levels of protection. For most owners, the reduction in longevity of a catalytic convertor is a small price to pay considering the many thousands of dollars it costs to properly rebuild a Porsche engine.
Oil companies have been cutting back on the use of Zn and P as anti-wear additives, and turning to alternative zinc-free (ZF) additives and ashless dispersants since Zn, P, and sulpherated ash have been found to be bad for catalytic converters. One such ZF anti-wear additive is boron. Most of the SM and CJ-4 oils we tested contain significant concentrations of boron (B) to offset the reduction of Zn and P. The performance of these zinc-free anti-wear additives has only been proven with ultra-low sulphur fuels, not readily available in the United States with exception of new diesel fuels since 2007. Since we are discussing aircooled engines specifically, the highest levels of boron we found were in Harley Davidsonís SYN3 motor oil, which is specifically formulated for an aircooled engine, but at levels six to ten times that of what is present in any reformulated SM or CJ-4 motor oil. Additionally, Harley's SYN3 didn't reduce the Zn or P, just supplemented it with the added boron. Similarly, Swepco's 306 has high levels of boron in addition to high levels of Zn and P.
According to leading studies, Boron works best in the presence of Zn and P and may better serve to complement these anti-wear additives than as a replacement for them. This reduction is a mandate issued by API, American Petroleum Institute, who is in charge of developing standing standards for motor oils. In 1996, API introduced the API SJ classification to reduce these levels to 0.10% or less. The latest API SM standard for car oils calls for a zinc and phosphorus content less than 0.08% to reduce sulfur, carbon monoxide, and hydrocarbon emissions. As a result of this mandate, some motor oils now have as little as 0.05% zinc and phosphorus.
Prior to the new CJ-4 API standard for diesel oils, we found most of the CI-4 15w40 and 5w40 oils to have excellent levels of Zn and P. We did observe Mobil, among other manufacturers, beginning the use of boron in their oils as a zinc-free (ZF) anti-wear additive in various CI-4 and SL formulations, but always with high Zn and P levels, above current API limitations. It would appear now that with the reduction of Zn and P in these newest CJ-4 oils, that boron will now become a more common anti-wear additive, and even with lowered Zn and P levels, the boron levels are still nowhere as close to what previous CI-4 and SL oils, so the long-term performance of these new oils is unknown and unproven in vehicles running fuels other than those classified as ultra-low sulphur, typically less than 10ppm as alluded to earlier. Remember, unleaded fuels don't have these low sulphur levels!
Read the detailed Zn and P thingy
LN Engineering Nickies Porsche Aluminum Nikasil Cylinders
They also say that non street legal oils have lesser detergents, and that enables longer drain intervals. High detergent oils(esp in Petrol engines) can wear the seals thin etc.,

With so much contradictory info running around the web, and that too in articles written by professionals, not blogs etc., we really need some Petroleum and lubrication expert to comment!
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Old 5th July 2007, 13:53   #437
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City Motors keeps Motul, but only in the 0W30 grade
Thanks Rtech, but 0W30 wont be practical for out type of temperatures, will visit them so i guess Motul is out, will check out Shell and Mobil1.

I have heard Mobil1 SuperSync 32 - What is with the number 32?

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No, I am running an OE replacement Pipercorss foam filter.
Where did you get it from and for how much, any difference in performance?
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Old 5th July 2007, 14:51   #438
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With so much contradictory info running around the web, and that too in articles written by professionals, not blogs etc., we really need some Petroleum and lubrication expert to comment!
We're in luck! I believe Karl is majoring in this very subject!

Edit: at the end of it, how often you change your oil is far more important that getting the next best thing I feel. Stick with what grade your manufacturer recommends, find the best oil you can within that grade and change it at the correct time.

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Where did you get it from and for how much, any difference in performance?
Ashdeen (Speed Demon Tuning). No noticeable difference in performance. But lets not go OT here.

Last edited by Rtech : 5th July 2007 at 15:02.
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Old 5th July 2007, 15:06   #439
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Hope to see Karl here!
BTW here is the API standards page. This is what API says about API categories. Petrol does not interest me, but found some interesting info for diesel
API Oil Service Categories
Quote:
CF-4: Current : Introduced in 1990. For high-speed, four-stroke, naturally aspirated and turbocharged engines. Can be used in place of CD and CE oils.
Quote:
CI-4 :Current: Introduced September 5, 2002. For high-speed, four-stroke engines designed to meet 2004 exhaust emission standards implemented in 2002. CI-4 oils are formulated to sustain engine durability where exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) is used and are intended for use with diesel fuels ranging in sulfur content up to 0.5% weight. Can be used in place of CD, CE, CF-4, CG-4, and CH-4 oils.
CH-4 : Current : Introduced in 1998. For high-speed, four-stroke engines designed to meet 1998 exhaust emission standards. CH-4 oils are specifically compounded for use with diesel fuels ranging in sulfur content up to 0.5% weight. Can be used in place of CD, CE, CF-4, and CG-4 oils.
CG-4 : Current :Introduced in 1995. For severe duty, high speed, four-stroke engines using fuel with less than 0.5% weight sulfur. CG-4 oils are required for engines meeting 1994 emission standards. Can be used in place of CD, CE, and CF-4 oils.
Now if you see that API CF does not consider Low sulfur diesel. It was introduced when diesel had high sulfur content, sulfur is a great lubricant.

API-CG, CH and CI talk about Low sulfur diesel, i.e. 0.5%
When you come to API-CJ(not mentioned in link) thats for ULSD. Chevron etc., pages tell specifically not to use anything below API-CI or CJ in ULSD and LSD cars.

Hence all the debate about API-CF vs API-CI oil.
We get < 0.5% LSD in India now(To meet E-III or Bharat III norms.
the lowest grade engine oil to be used with Low Sulfur diesel is the API-CG, so in case of LSD use will a API-CF4 synthetic oil provide even as much benefit to engine as a mineral API-CI under normal operating conditions?
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Old 5th July 2007, 16:27   #440
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so in case of LSD use will a API-CF4 synthetic oil provide even as much benefit to engine as a mineral API-CI under normal operating conditions?
Yes. I read that tsk. The difference, correct me if I am wrong, is that API-CI oils carry additional detergents the deal with issues of sooting and build up of deposits on the EGR.

A mineral oil can be CI certified, but if you ask me which is better, a CI certified mineral or CF certified 100% synthetic, my answer will still be the synthetic. You see, for me, the oil's primary jobs are to (1) lubricate effectively at all temperatures, and (2) dissipation of heat within the engine.

Detergents etc. like the ones in CI oil are available off the shelve and even in certain fuels etc (Speed Diesel etc) which claim to do the same job.

Also, the CI standard has been present since 2002, but till date I am yet to come across and auto maker that specifies API-CI oil for their diesel passenger car range. Maybe they are out there, I just haven't come across them. I'm sure there must be a reason for this, or else surely the manufacturers would have adopted this standard for their high performance diesels. However they only recommend these oils for their heavy duty truck applications.

Why? Well so far we have only been looking at API standards, which are American standards. If we look at ACEA standards European standards), these would infact be more applicable to our driving environment and cars than the API standards.

The ACEA clearly classifies oils into:
A1 Fuel economy petrol
A2 Standard performance level
A3 High performance and/or extended drain
A4 Reserved for future use in certain direct injection engines
A5 Combines A1 fuel economy with A3 performance

B1 Fuel economy diesel
B2 Standard performance level (now obsolete)
B3 High performance and/or extended drain
B4 For direct injection car diesel engines
B5 Combines B1 fuel economy with B3/B4 performance

E 1-5: is used for Heavy Duty diesels

Delvac and other similar oils are classified in the E category i.e. heavy duty diesels. All our passenger car diesels (VW, Skoda, BMW etc) fall in the B category, which the lighter oils such as the motul mentioned above meet.

Last edited by Rtech : 5th July 2007 at 16:33.
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Old 5th July 2007, 16:46   #441
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Yes. I read that tsk. The difference, correct me if I am wrong, is that API-CI oils carry additional detergents the deal with issues of sooting and build up of deposits on the EGR.
Slightly wrong here. The EGR issue is mostly with cars which are built for ULSD.
There are 2 things here
1. In a 2007 diesel car which meets US emission standards, if you use any oil which is less than API-CJ it will destroy the emissions system. The reason is things like Sulfur and P/Zn in oil. In this thread I posted a link regarding this bulletin from Chevron. But since we do not use ULSD in India, its not important to us
2. They said that if you are running ULSD in a car older than 2007, which is made for LSD if you do not use API-CI or API-CJ oil and put in ULSD instead of LSD, more engine wear and tear will occur because ULSD is very harsh on a diesel engine. Engine oils need to provide extra protection.
I kind of back referenced to CF.
API-CF4 is for high sulfur diesel which has excellent engine protection capabilities. So if you put in API-CF4 and then use LSD instead of HSD, you will not get the protection of sulfur in fuel. Therefore if you are using LSD an engine oil which meets the standards API-CG4 or higher should be used.
I think there are a couple of diesel cars sold in India which demand in their manuals that use API-CG/CH or higher. I think innova is one, any innova owners please correct me. People who own BMW diesels or Mercedes Diesels can also comment upon the same please. All you need to do is look through
Even the Mobil website also says that do not use an API-CF oil if your owners manual says API-CH or API-CG.
Quote:
A mineral oil can be CI certified, but if you ask me which is better, a CI certified mineral or CF certified 100% synthetic, my answer will still be the synthetic. You see, for me, the oil's primary jobs are to (1) lubricate effectively at all temperatures, and (2) dissipation of heat within the engine.
Detergents etc. like the ones in CI oil are available off the shelve and even in certain fuels etc (Speed Diesel etc) which claim to do the same job.
I think if your car says API-CF4 required in that case a synthetic API-CF4 will be better than mineral API-CI4. But I do not know what the equation will be if you are putting in normal LSD without additives.
Quote:
Also, the CI standard has been present since 2002, but till date I am yet to come across and auto maker that specifies API-CI oil for their diesel passenger car range. Maybe they are out there, I just haven't come across them. I'm sure there must be a reason for this, or else surely the manufacturers would have adopted this standard for their high performance diesels. However they only recommend these oils for their heavy duty truck applications.

Why? Well so far we have only been looking at API standards, which are American standards. If we look at ACEA standards European standards), these would infact be more applicable to our driving environment and cars than the API standards.

The ACEA clearly classifies oils into:
A1 Fuel economy petrol
A2 Standard performance level
A3 High performance and/or extended drain
A4 Reserved for future use in certain direct injection engines
A5 Combines A1 fuel economy with A3 performance

B1 Fuel economy diesel
B2 Standard performance level (now obsolete)
B3 High performance and/or extended drain
B4 For direct injection car diesel engines
B5 Combines B1 fuel economy with B3/B4 performance

E 1-5: is used for Heavy Duty diesels

Delvac and other similar oils are classified in the E category i.e. heavy duty diesels. All our passenger car diesels (VW, Skoda, BMW etc) fall in the B category, which the lighter oils such as the motul mentioned above meet.
ACEA standards are not talking about sulfur in diesel question. Moreover, ever since USA went ULSD, the oil companies released bulletins regarding use of API-CJ4.
I have seen cans of oil displaying mostly API ratings mostly.

On a side not Mobil 1 markets an API-CF4 petrol/diesel synthetic called extended life and says its good for 15000 miles, is that true. Can I put that in my indica and Fill it shut it forget it for 15000kms? i.e. no engine oil change for a year?
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Old 5th July 2007, 17:04   #442
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1. In a 2007 diesel car which meets US emission standards, if you use any oil which is less than API-CJ it will destroy the emissions system. The reason is things like Sulfur and P/Zn in oil. In this thread I posted a link regarding this bulletin from Chevron. But since we do not use ULSD in India, its not important to us
Answered yourself in bold!

Quote:
2. They said that if you are running ULSD in a car older than 2007, which is made for LSD if you do not use API-CI or API-CJ oil and put in ULSD instead of LSD, more engine wear and tear will occur because ULSD is very harsh on a diesel engine. Engine oils need to provide extra protection.
Again, how is this connected to us? We do not have ULSD or engines sold to run solely on ULSD here, so where does this even surface in our environment?

Quote:
API-CF4 is for high sulfur diesel which has excellent engine protection capabilities. So if you put in API-CF4 and then use LSD instead of HSD, you will not get the protection of sulfur in fuel. Therefore if you are using LSD an engine oil which meets the standards API-CG4 or higher should be used.
Again, I don't get why you brought this up? There is not question on this. never has been.

Quote:
Even the Mobil website also says that do not use an API-CF oil if your owners manual says API-CH or API-CG.
The same Mobil1 website also says that you should use Delvac for heavy duty use, and regular mobil1 for light vehicle use!

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ACEA standards are not talking about sulfur in diesel question.
Huh! These are the standards recognised for an oil to be sold in the EU. They use LSD in the EU. How can you say that their standards are not talking about sulphur in the diesel!
Quote:
Moreover, ever since USA went ULSD, the oil companies released bulletins regarding use of API-CJ4.
I repeat, how does his concern us when we do not have ULSD here!

The European standards for oil grades clearly specify the grade of oil to be used for light passenger diesels. The oil companies clearly specify the oil to be used for light passenger diesels. The car companies clearly specify the oil to be used for light passenger diesels. What am I missing here?
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Old 5th July 2007, 17:22   #443
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Umm I was trying th backreference,
API_CJ for ULSD and the bulletins say do not use API-CG etc,. if you put ULSD in old engines
Since API-CG for LSD, do not use API-CF for low sulfur. But I agree, my back-reference may be wrong.
Anyways while on topic, what about the extended life oil? Can it really last that long? If so I don't mind putting it in and then fill it shut it forget it for a year.
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Old 5th July 2007, 17:23   #444
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Can someone please update the commonly used abbreviations thread? My head is spinning.
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Old 5th July 2007, 17:28   #445
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Anyways while on topic, what about the extended life oil? Can it really last that long? If so I don't mind putting it in and then fill it shut it forget it for a year.
Well, they say even regular 100% synthetic can last upto 50,000 kilometers without a change or chemical breakdown. However, in our extreme conditions - stop/start, traffic, dust, heat etc. the maximum I go on a full synthetic is 8-10,000km. And that is the maximum.

These extended interval oils are more suited to fleet operators who have long running hours on highways etc.
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Old 5th July 2007, 17:31   #446
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Originally Posted by Rtech View Post
Well, they say even regular 100% synthetic can last upto 50,000 kilometers without a change or chemical breakdown. However, in our extreme conditions - stop/start, traffic, dust, heat etc. the maximum I go on a full synthetic is 8-10,000km. And that is the maximum.

These extended interval oils are more suited to fleet operators who have long running hours on highways etc.
Mobil 1 claims that they did a test with Taxi fleet in LA where running was in City.
So if regular synthetic can last for 8-10000kms in a car, I presume a extended life synthetic can do 15000?

And Sam, the abbreviations are updated
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Old 5th July 2007, 17:35   #447
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The thing is, its not only about kilometers. If you do 15,000km within 3 months, then that should be alright. However if it take you 15 months to do that same distance, it's not advisable.

Didn't know about the test done by mobil. But, from my own seat-of-the-pants feel, I can feel a big difference each time I change the oil. I'd rather err on the side of safety on this one.
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Old 5th July 2007, 19:32   #448
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woooooooaaaaaahh!!! thats one hell of a debate, very educational and sometimes leaning towards total confusion also. so for newbee's please do summarize also

my understanding of RTech version are:

Mobil 1 and Motul, primarily termed as fully synthetic for petrols, are good enough for Diesel's
Motul (less expensive) is as good as Mobil 1 (which is expensive) ??

Where as tsk says that, Diesel engine are better off with specific oils made for Diesel engines (synthetic or otherwise) ?

Am i confused or not?

As far as kms for oil change goes, with my limited exposure to Mobil and Castrol (Fully synthetic as well as semi synthetics) its better to change the oil between 7 to 10k, do a simple finger test and its quite obvious

Yeah if you are gonna do one single trip around the world in one go, fully synthetics can stand even 60 k kms without any undue damage.
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Old 6th July 2007, 00:22   #449
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Yes Jaggu you are right
rtech says a synthetic API CF-4/SL oil is better than a mineral API-CI since we do not get ULSD here, only Low sulfur diesel.
His second point is the ACEA standards are met by the Synthetic made for petrol oils.
My point is
1. No API-CH,CI oil(diesel) is rated for petrol
2. Even the most expensive synthetic oils for petrol are API-CF4 for diesel and API-SM for petrol. I don't really know what does API-CI oil have which API-CF oil does not have. RT says don't worry, as long as your car can take API-CF use it
3. Viscosity wars, RT is right. Lighter motor vehicle oil will give more cold start protection. I say that if you warm up your engine a heavy duty oil will be equally effective.

Now coming to Synthetic long life question.
I run my car around 1700kms/month, so does it make sense for me to put in synthetic "extended drain" oil and then forget it for 8-10 months till I do 12000kms.
Currently my mineral oil(Castrol GTX diesel API-CI4) + STP engine oil additive does 7500kms. Even after that the "finger test" tells oil is well and will last another 5000, but to be on the safe side I change oil every 7500
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Old 6th July 2007, 09:34   #450
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my answer to your question will be, yes synthetic can/will last for above 10 k. I had done an experiment when magnatec was launched in 90's, with old zen and found out that no much deposit occur even when you delay the change to 15 k kms, approx 1.5 year was the time duration.

Only the usual light tan used to come, not dark brown smudge. This was with Castrol Magnatec, lifting the cover didnt show any sign of smudge and to be doubly sure i used flushing oil also before the next change.

So technically if a semi synthetic can survive so long, synthetics can very well survive more. Its more of a feel good and being doubly on the safe side that its always best to change oil at 7 to 10 k marks, again this was for petrol.

yes as the oil & engine technology has improved there should be equally good options for long drain with diesel also.

My last point is the Flush, this is the most critical aspect on how long the new oil will survive.
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