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Old 13th March 2017, 16:25   #4696
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Mobil and shell are both good options. Go for what is cheap. Both have a good additive pack. Mobil1 (0w-40) has a higher viscosity Index while Shell helix ultra is lighter as per specs on paper. Both are licensed by MB, BMW, VW and various other brands.

Also keep in mind that both these synth oils are rated for 15K oil change intervals in German cars. our Maruti Suzukis and Hyundais do not stress them enough.
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Old 14th March 2017, 05:22   #4697
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Viscosity index in isolation does not tell us much except rate of change of viscosity across a temperature gradient. I’m not a big fan of 0W oil owing to their poor sheer stability on account of extra treat rate of polymers in their adpacks. Use these only if recommended by your OEM.

European cars for the most part have double the sump capacity for a given cubic capacity of an engine as compared to sump capacities of most of the North American/ Japanese or Korean engines. By corollary the sump of a BMW or a Mercedes will have twice the amount of additives to fight the shear/oxidation/contaminants produced on account of combustion as compared to let’s say an engine of a North American/Japanese or Korean car.

Specifying the oil drain interval is prerogative of the engine manufacturer not the lubricant manufacturer. There is whole host of benefits that are accrued on account of using synthetics such as preventing the 90% of damage that occurs at cold start up, its superior ability to fight oxidation, shear & their superior cleansing/cooling ability etc. (these have been discussed umpteen number of times on this forum) however extending the oil drain interval is not one that should be pursued by the end user (in case of light duty engines for transport applications). Sticking to OEM’s recommendation when it comes to oil drain interval is the best practice that I always recommend. In case of a lubricant related malfunction/failure you will be denied the warranty by the OEM if you have extended your oil drain.

To put into perspective would you like to wash your cloths in a washing machine containing dirty water (that has become so because of a washing cycle already completed earlier) just because you’re using a very expensive detergent; I wouldn’t.

Testing as suggested by one of the forum member earlier for the amount of wear metals/other by products of combustion in a used oil sample would be an essential pre requisite for extending the oil drain interval. In North America the companies providing these services charge anywhere from US$30 to $40 per sample which in Indian Rupees would be almost equivalent of the expense that you would incur on an oil change and that is the reason 99% of the end users do not use it.

The only segment in transport sector that uses this service is the on/off highway trucks on account of their very large sump sizes (and thereby very expensive oil changes) that range from 40 litres for a Freightliner to 320 litres for a CAT 797 haul truck.
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Old 14th March 2017, 12:06   #4698
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by Vikram Arya View Post
Viscosity index in isolation does not tell us much except rate of change of viscosity across a temperature gradient.
==============
The only segment in transport sector that uses this service is the on/off highway trucks on account of their very large sump sizes (and thereby very expensive oil changes) that range from 40 litres for a Freightliner to 320 litres for a CAT 797 haul truck.
Not just Viscosity Index but any number on an oil spec sheet doesn't say much by itself. Talking of 0w oils. A 0w-40 oil like Petronas 7000 is similar in viscosity to 5w-40 oils and thicker than many 10w-30 oils and 5w-40 oils. But I agree that 0 grade oils are a waste in Indian conditions, that should not mean that their advantages of wear and tear at startup can be negated. This statement will be confusing to most car users including enthusiasts who prefer to stick to tried and tested oils and OCI's but holds true.

When talking about the Size of the Sump size, one also needs to keep in mind the pressure required for actual lubrication which thinner oils lack(main work of oil) of engine parts. Germans over engineer everything including the oils (we are not talking about maintaince costs and reliability here). Hence for a car like maruti or Honda or Hyundai which now recommend 0w-20 and 5w-30 oils, 0w-40 and 5w-40 are definitely going to do a better job as these same grades of oils were recommended previously. There is a reason the manuals recommend oils upto 10w-40 and even 50 grades.

Trusting oil change intervals by car makers in not ALWAYS in the best interest of customers. There have been instances where companies have changed oil change intervals from 10K to 15K (recent case in point being FIAT). Again giving examples of US car makers does not work for Indian customers either. They have started recommending 0w-20 oils for the same engines that once called for 5w-40 thanks to their CAFE requirements.

Oils specs sheets and their opinions online are as confusing as their applications are simple. I would be more interested in a regular oil change with a Semi Synth oil anyways.

Last edited by Jaggu : 20th March 2017 at 11:37. Reason: Please avoid Quoting entire large post for replies. Thanks.
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Old 17th March 2017, 15:48   #4699
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Purchased this oil for use in the Honda Jazz for Ahmedabad Summer. The Veedol Syntron 5w-40
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Old 20th March 2017, 10:48   #4700
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

After thinking about it for almost a year, the time has come to decide. My dealer will arrange the oil.
Mobil 1 ESP 5w30
Mobil 1 0w40
Shell Helix Ultra 5w40
Castrol Edge 5w40

Which is the best one? Number them as per preference. All synthetics. I want a quieter engine without the fuel economy taking a hit(would appreciate improvement in FE if at all it effects).
Recommended is ACEA A5/B5 with SAE 5W30 or 5w40 as per user manual.
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Old 20th March 2017, 12:19   #4701
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by anycatd View Post
After thinking about it for almost a year, the time has come to decide. My dealer will arrange the oil.
Mobil 1 ESP 5w30
Mobil 1 0w40
Shell Helix Ultra 5w40
Castrol Edge 5w40

Which is the best one? Number them as per preference. All synthetics. I want a quieter engine without the fuel economy taking a hit(would appreciate improvement in FE if at all it effects).
Recommended is ACEA A5/B5 with SAE 5W30 or 5w40 as per user manual.
None of the oils that you’ve mentioned meet ACEA “A5/B5” specification.

Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40, Mobil 0W-40 & Castrol Edge 5W-40 meet ACEA A3/B4 which is closest to ACEA A5/B5. Mobil ESP 5W-30 meets only ACEA C2, C3 specs (catalyst compatibility).

ACEA A5/B5 specs pertain to extended oil drain capable of using low viscosity oil with HTHS viscosity of 2.9 to 3.5 mPa.

As your car’s owners’ manual only recommends 5W-30/40, that effectively rules out Mobil 0W-40. That leaves Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40, Castrol Edge 5W-40 & Mobil ESP 5W-30.

If fuel economy is a very important criteria here then 5W-30 is the best bet as its viscosity @100C is 12.1 cSt vis-à-vis more than 13 cSt for 5W-40 oils & therefore all other things being equal the 5W-30 oil will give you a slight edge from fuel economy perspective.

All three oils are very good and you cannot really go wrong with any of these.
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Old 20th March 2017, 14:14   #4702
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by Vikram Arya View Post
None of the oils that you’ve mentioned meet ACEA “A5/B5” specification.

Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40, Mobil 0W-40 & Castrol Edge 5W-40 meet ACEA A3/B4 which is closest to ACEA A5/B5. Mobil ESP 5W-30 meets only ACEA C2, C3 specs (catalyst compatibility).

ACEA A5/B5 specs pertain to extended oil drain capable of using low viscosity oil with HTHS viscosity of 2.9 to 3.5 mPa.

As your car’s owners’ manual only recommends 5W-30/40, that effectively rules out Mobil 0W-40. That leaves Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40, Castrol Edge 5W-40 & Mobil ESP 5W-30.

If fuel economy is a very important criteria here then 5W-30 is the best bet as its viscosity @100C is 12.1 cSt vis-à-vis more than 13 cSt for 5W-40 oils & therefore all other things being equal the 5W-30 oil will give you a slight edge from fuel economy perspective.

All three oils are very good and you cannot really go wrong with any of these.
I don't think any oil meets A5/B5 as the rating
asks for a low viscosity which might not protect the engine well.
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Old 21st March 2017, 04:35   #4703
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by anycatd View Post
I don't think any oil meets A5/B5 as the rating
asks for a low viscosity which might not protect the engine well.
I did not exactly understand your question but I suspect you’re concerned that oils meeting the A5/B5 specs might be low viscosity & may not protect your engine.

Well, folks who have designed your engine would know better; don’t you think so?

If you read my response, it explicitly states that ACEA A5/B5 specs are for extended drain oils using low viscosity oils meeting HTHS (High temperature High Shear) viscosity between 2.9 to 3.5 mPa (mega Pascal).

Basically what it means is that this low viscosity oil should be able to withstand shear at these high temperatures & pressures (1 mega Pascal is equal to 145 pounds per square inch of pressure).

Yes, none of the oils that you’ve mentioned meet A5/B5 but I had to work with the list that you provided. Additionally three of the four oils in your list are very close to what is specified by your OEM.
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Old 21st March 2017, 12:55   #4704
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

ACEA A5/B5 oils will not give you a silent engine as per my understanding. They are supposed to be thinner than A3/B3 or A3/B4 oils for better Fuel Efficiency.

If you really want to go for better fuel Efficiency, Maruti should be able to provide you with Shell HX8 0w-20. It's specs should closely meet the HTHS of below 3.5. But Not recommended for Summer.

For the oils you mentioned, mobil 0w40 and shell (pennzoil in the US) are priced the same on Amazon US. But in India Helix ultra is much cheaper than Mobil. I am not much of a fan of castrol oils in India.

As the previous poster suggested, use a 5w-30 Synthetic or even a 0w-40 mobil (it is a 0w grade but is marginally thicker than 5w-30 mobil at 40 degrees). The viscosity at 40 degrees for 0w-40 is same as the Shell helix or the Veedol Syntron I recently purchased for my Honda Jazz. Petronas 7000 0w-40 is thinner and closer to a w30 oil. All are a3/b4 oils.
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Old 21st March 2017, 14:53   #4705
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by anycatd View Post
I don't think any oil meets A5/B5 as the rating
asks for a low viscosity which might not protect the engine well.
While searching for 5w30 engine oil meeting ACEA A5/B5 for my Nissan Micra diesel, I could get information about the below mentioned engine oil from Mobil. I couldn't find any suitable one from Shell India website or Castrol India while doing online search but the real market scenario may be different.
http://lubes.mobil.com/AP-English-LC...FE-5W-30.aspx#

If you get any further information about 5w30 ACEA A5/B5 engine oils please revert.

Regards,
Debrup.
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Old 21st March 2017, 15:57   #4706
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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Originally Posted by devarshi84 View Post
ACEA A5/B5 oils will not give you a silent engine as per my understanding. They are supposed to be thinner than A3/B3 or A3/B4 oils for better Fuel Efficiency.

As the previous poster suggested, use a 5w-30 Synthetic or even a 0w-40 mobil (it is a 0w grade but is marginally thicker than 5w-30 mobil at 40 degrees). The viscosity at 40 degrees for 0w-40 is same as the Shell helix or the Veedol Syntron I recently purchased for my Honda Jazz. Petronas 7000 0w-40 is thinner and closer to a w30 oil. All are a3/b4 oils.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikram Arya View Post
Well, folks who have designed your engine would know better; don’t you think so?

If you read my response, it explicitly states that ACEA A5/B5 specs are for extended drain oils using low viscosity oils meeting HTHS (High temperature High Shear) viscosity between 2.9 to 3.5 mPa (mega Pascal).
Additionally three of the four oils in your list are very close to what is specified by your OEM.
During the meet with the manager of the MASS I was shown a list of oil brands approved by Maruti which were the same ones he told me on the phone. Liqui Moly hasn't received an approval yet(I'll try to mail Anand Group about the same).I asked for Mobil 1.He called up a supplier of Mobil 1 and asked him to deliver a special can of synthetic oil on customers demand. I asked him which grade the oil would be coming in and he replied that it would be 0w40. I asked him whether it would hurt the warranty to which he said that the oil will be mentioned in the their official report so I won't have to worry about it. So that's it, let's see how it performs over the course of year. I've read good reviews for it. He even said the FE might show a minor increase. Not quite sure about that, hopefully it will.

Last edited by anycatd : 21st March 2017 at 16:02. Reason: extra word deleted
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Old 5th May 2017, 12:20   #4707
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

I want to change the engine oil for my New Figo from mineral oil (5W-30) to Ford specified Synthetic Oil. The mileage is about 23 K.

The problem I am facing is the car is under warranty and I can't get it serviced outside. The guys in FASS are very insistent about not performing an engine flush.

Is it OK to change to Synthetic oil directly from mineral oil without an engine flush? I had read some articles which state that the residues from mineral oils can react with the Synthetic oils and cause issues in the engine.

Has anybody changed to Synthetics directly from mineral oil (w/o flushing) ? Would like to hear their story.

FYI: The SA in FASS is very particular that no issues are expected as long as I adhere to the specified engine oil grade.
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Old 5th May 2017, 12:49   #4708
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

The SA and the mechanics are spot on. Engine flush is not required.

I myself have switched from mineral to synthetic and vice versa more than once on quite a few of my cars and never had an issue. These included cars with low milage to those with 1L kms on the odometer. Engines varied from all aluminium blocks to full CI blocks with alloy heads and what not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by revvenant View Post
The problem I am facing is the car is under warranty and I can't get it serviced outside. The guys in FASS are very insistent about not performing an engine flush.

.....

Has anybody changed to Synthetics directly from mineral oil (w/o flushing) ? Would like to hear their story.

FYI: The SA in FASS is very particular that no issues are expected as long as I adhere to the specified engine oil grade.
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Old 5th May 2017, 13:01   #4709
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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The SA and the mechanics are spot on. Engine flush is not required.

I myself have switched from mineral to synthetic and vice versa more than once on quite a few of my cars and never had an issue. These included cars with low milage to those with 1L kms on the odometer. Engines varied from all aluminium blocks to full CI blocks with alloy heads and what not.
Thanks for the information, the piece of information I forgot to mention in my earlier post is that mine is a diesel.
Would you recommend the same (no flush) for a diesel engine?
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Old 5th May 2017, 15:45   #4710
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Default Re: ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil

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The problem I am facing is the car is under warranty and I can't get it serviced outside. The guys in FASS are very insistent about not performing an engine flush.
I have gone from mineral to synthetic and in other back to mineral in different cars at different times. There are absolutely no detrimental effects. The Ford guys are right. Do not use engine flush. IMO it does more harm than good and only useful only when there is a lot of sludge. And it doesn't matter if the car is a petrol or diesel.
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