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Old 11th December 2006, 18:40   #91
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Originally Posted by COOLAMOL View Post
Synthetic oils are the best.I have shell synthetic oil 5w 50 in my esteem which has run 38 thousand kms.
The engine oil turned black at 20 thousand kms, so i was in 2 minds to change it or not.I was scared the engine would break down buti went on & on. now since its 38 thsnd km ,i feel it will still manage another 10 thsnd kms cause of the smoothness of the engine and fuel efficiency.its really worth Rs 600 /litre
You want to run the same oil for 30,000 km and that too in Mumbai driving conditions Since it turned black at 20,000 km, when did you put it in? At 10,000 km? Like mineral oil, synthetic oil also needs to be changed as per service schedules. Your oil seems quite contaminated and would not be able to do its job of protecting / lubricating your engine. I doubt your engine will last beyond 70-80,000 km.

My suggestion is to change your oil NOW, before any further damage is done to your engine.

I would still prefer to use mineral at 200-300rs/ltr and change the oil more frequently than synthetic at 600rs/ltr and change once in 3 years.
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Old 12th December 2006, 02:23   #92
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in this synthetic vs mineral oil debate,there are no hard facts to justify whether synthetic oil makes any difference to engines which were designed to operate and run with mineral oils.i can understand porsche,mercedes etc using synthetic oils since they have high strung powerful engines.but most of the cars here for eg:wagon r,zen,santro,ohc,nhc,baleno,palio etc are not in any way powerful to demand synthetic oils.
most of the posts by members are perceptions and placebo of the fact that they have put in synthetic oils.
there are no numbers,no graphs(atleast for indian cars) which shows that an engine ran longer with synthetic oil compared to mineral oil.
I'm not suggesting that synthetic oils are useless or its just marketing gimmick,they are very very important in cars which actually have performance potential but do not make sense for your regular every day commuter.thats my opinion and in no way am i targeting any member.
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Old 12th December 2006, 13:08   #93
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Originally Posted by hellspawn
most of the posts by members are perceptions and placebo of the fact that they have put in synthetic oils.
This really really hurts,bro.
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Old 12th December 2006, 15:55   #94
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@hellspawn, better lubrication will help any machinery wether it spins at 1500rpm or 15000.
In cars like zen etc, synthetic oils can safely last 10-12000kms. Moreover they reduce wear at the most crucial time, startup. Majority of engine wear happens when it is started up from cold.
If you are looking for non performance cars tests on synthetic oils read this
Company Tests Synthetic Oil by Driving Car a Million Miles
Also for engine life tests read this
Side-by-side comparison of synthetic vs conventional Mineral / Petrolium oil. See how oils compared to each other.

Synthetic oil may make more sense for a performance car, but in other cars also it will increase your engine life.

Last edited by tsk1979 : 12th December 2006 at 16:00.
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Old 12th December 2006, 16:42   #95
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Is Castrol Active Power 1 a synthetic oil or a Mineral one.I have put this in my bike only last week without viewing this forum.
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Old 13th December 2006, 11:33   #96
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What's the right grade of synthetic oil if the mineral oil is 20W40?

Wanted to shift to synthetic during the last service, but the Mandovi guys were clueless. Even now, they say the engine flush is not required.
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Old 13th December 2006, 13:26   #97
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The oils you get in India are 5W40 for synthetic.
My understanding was that 15W40 will be better than 20W40, and 10W40 will be better than 15 and 5W40 will be the best of the lot. The "Lower" number has something to do with properties at low temperatures.
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Old 13th December 2006, 14:39   #98
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Originally Posted by nitrous View Post
This really really hurts,bro.
no offense meant buddy
@tsk:i read these articles.but again like previous posts by members,it is said that even though you are using synthetic oil,its better to change the oil after 5k-7.5k kms due to the conditions that we drive in.so how does it become different than a mineral oil.and not to forget they are 4 times as expensive.
and when you talk about engine life,i have seen maruti 800's,zens etc cross 150k kms while still using mineral oils.
well if i may a comparison and i dont know if its apt but let us take the case of petrol(gasoline).
some people would like how the car performs under the use of speed.some would prefer hp power,some would like xtrapremium.all these fuels would be equally good but in the end it depends on the driving conditions,environment,the particular car in question,the driver.
i would say its wrong to generalise that all cars would perform better with the use of synthetic oils.
and im not shouting my mouth off.i have tried it and that is why im commenting.i got the nhc vtec serviced 6000kms back (for the record the car has done 20k kms) and instead of the honda recommended engine oil,i got mobil 1 put in the car(after flushing ).i got out of the service station and i felt that the engine was running smoother.i was delighted that synthetic oil actually was better.....till the time my dad took it for a ride.as soon as he came back,i enquired whether the car felt smoother.to which he replied,that there was no difference.i kept pestering him to hint at even a .1% difference in performance,smoothness etc.his answers were no,no and no...no difference.its been 6k since the car was fed mobil 1 and still is running like it would on mineral oil.so again my finger points towards "perception"...."placebo".
please feel free to comment.it is a healthy debate.for all you know i might get converted to syn.oils.(though its pretty darn expensive )

Last edited by hellspawn : 13th December 2006 at 14:57.
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Old 14th December 2006, 05:16   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raajiv View Post
Is Castrol Active Power 1 a synthetic oil or a Mineral one.I have put this in my bike only last week without viewing this forum.
Power 1 is a semi-synthetic oil and it is SAE 15W40
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Old 14th December 2006, 08:24   #100
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@Mitun,

Thanks Mithun for your prompt reply.
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Old 14th December 2006, 12:11   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellspawn View Post
@tsk:i read these articles.but again like previous posts by members,it is said that even though you are using synthetic oil,its better to change the oil after 5k-7.5k kms due to the conditions that we drive in.so how does it become different than a mineral oil.and not to forget they are 4 times as expensive.

and when you talk about engine life,i have seen maruti 800's,zens etc cross 150k kms while still using mineral oils.

well if i may a comparison and i dont know if its apt but let us take the case of petrol(gasoline).
some people would like how the car performs under the use of speed.some would prefer hp power,some would like xtrapremium.all these fuels would be equally good but in the end it depends on the driving conditions,environment,the particular car in question,the driver.

i would say its wrong to generalise that all cars would perform better with the use of synthetic oils.
and im not shouting my mouth off.i have tried it and that is why im commenting.i got the nhc vtec serviced 6000kms back (for the record the car has done 20k kms) and instead of the honda recommended engine oil,i got mobil 1 put in the car(after flushing ).i got out of the service station and i felt that the engine was running smoother.i was delighted that synthetic oil actually was better.....till the time my dad took it for a ride.as soon as he came back,i enquired whether the car felt smoother.to which he replied,that there was no difference.i kept pestering him to hint at even a .1% difference in performance,smoothness etc.his answers were no,no and no...no difference.its been 6k since the car was fed mobil 1 and still is running like it would on mineral oil.so again my finger points towards "perception"...."placebo".

please feel free to comment.it is a healthy debate.for all you know i might get converted to syn.oils.(though its pretty darn expensive )
I agree with your line of thinking, hellspawn!
As a qualified and experienced engineering professional, here are my thoughts:
Over the past five decades
  1. Engine internal temperatures haven't changed. We still don't use gas turbines.
  2. Engine RPMs haven't changed. Other than racing drivers amongst us, we still drive typically below 5000 rpm.
  3. Notwithstanding electronic fuel injection and variable valve timing technology, fundamentally, reciprocating internal-combustion engine technology is still the same. No big difference from the 1953 Plymouth Savoy that breezed along Marine Drive and Chowpatty at 75 mph with Madhubala and Dilip Kumar in it.
  4. Mineral oil hasn't become scarce, as revealed by the prices, nor is its quality any worse than what was anyway available in the 1950s.
  5. Your car's resale price isn't going to be any higher!
  6. Before they rot away to bits, cars lubricated by mineral oil, do last a couple of decades anyway. They've always done so.
  7. Money isn't any more plentiful. If anything it's dearer!
One can understand business's perennial need to make money off the consumer.
But how does one understand this overwhelming obsession among our friends to replace an oil that has always worked, with a synthetic fluid four times costlier, nothing else having changed in the environment?

Ram
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Old 14th December 2006, 12:35   #102
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What about those members who push their engines to the limits by simple and extreme mods or operating conditions
1. For example chipping, K&N, Free flow etc,. to get additional HP.
2. Extreme conditions. Manufacturers recommend 20W40 mineral oil. what if you are going to operate in sub zero? You will need atleast 10W40 or 5W40 which is more commonly found in synthetic/semi synthetic oils

Moreover no matter whether machinery is old or new, won't better lubrication increase life. Esp during cold starts(5-10degrees at delhi winters) when the 20W40 oil will not be effective. When engine gets warm things are okay, but what about 2 minutes of torture your engine will go through because your oil was designed for minimum 20 degrees temperature?

Agree with you on the cost part. Thats the only reason for me too not to go for synthetic yet. But in mineral oil space too I try to go above Tata's recommendation of CD grade. I put in CG though workshops go in for just CF at the most.

Also Indian driving conditions are very demanding. Lots of heat, cold-heat transformations can lead to sludge buildups. Somebody who changes oils every 6000kms or so will do okay with 15W40, but if you don't(which many people don't) a better oil will stay good for longer periods.
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Old 14th December 2006, 13:32   #103
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In my hands, the Vtec spends more time at the other end of the RPM gauge (>6500 rpm) than at <2000 rpm.

Even for other not-so-extreme usage conditions, I am fully convinced of the benefits of synthetic lubes. In my Jeep diesel for instance, my brother once climbed the Lonavla ghat with a busted radiator. Mahindra engineers commented that regular oil would have boiled over, fried and finished the engine. This happened at 60,000 kms and the same diesel engine went on until 130,000+ kms before packing up.
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Old 14th December 2006, 13:55   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
What about those members who push their engines to the limits by simple and extreme mods or operating conditions
1. For example chipping, K&N, Free flow etc,. to get additional HP.
I respond with my thoughts, here with a disclaimer:
There is no intention of hurting any individual's sentiments. If done inadvertently let me apologize in advance.

Upsetting a highly qualified and experienced designer's design parameters by rewriting the tables used by the software in the ECU is being promoted as some occult art.
It even has a nouveau kewl jargon, "chipping" if you will.
will it extend the life of the engine or fuel economy? I should think it's against federal and state laws too, in a developed world where the car's design and repairs must be homologated or certified before the contraption is let loose into the city. We may not have the bandwidth to enforce these laws in our developing country yet, but this is not the case in the developed world.

K&N and free flow exhausts are again meddling with design parameters. It makes money for the filter/muffler vendor and gives a "high" to the cowboy enthusiast to know he's done some tinkering too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
2. Extreme conditions. Manufacturers recommend 20W40 mineral oil. what if you are going to operate in sub zero? You will need atleast 10W40 or 5W40 which is more commonly found in synthetic/semi synthetic oils
All those 5 weight when cold, 20 weight when hot (aka 5W20) have been used since World War 2, with mineral oils.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Moreover no matter whether machinery is old or new, won't better lubrication increase life. Esp during cold starts(5-10degrees at delhi winters) when the 20W40 oil will not be effective. When engine gets warm things are okay, but what about 2 minutes of torture your engine will go through because your oil was designed for minimum 20 degrees temperature?
How much more does one really want? At the end of the day, should the total amount spent on lubrication exceed the price of a new engine?
Regular oil changes with good mineral oils gives you decades of engine life anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Also Indian driving conditions are very demanding. Lots of heat, cold-heat transformations can lead to sludge buildups. Somebody who changes oils every 6000kms or so will do okay with 15W40, but if you don't(which many people don't) a better oil will stay good for longer periods.
Indian driving conditions haven't gotten any more demanding in the last 50 years.
Desert driving conditions, Himalayan driving conditions, weaving through narrow gullies and cobbled tram tracks in Calcutta, negotiating around rickshaw pullers and horse-drawn tongas has been around for decades.

Sludge buildup is not due to temperature cycling. It's due to wear and tear (metal debris and combustion residues washed away in the oil).

Warm regards
Ram
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Old 14th December 2006, 14:05   #105
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What about those members who push their engines to the limits by simple and extreme mods or operating conditions
1. For example chipping, K&N, Free flow etc,. to get additional HP.
well these mods actually make an engine more efficient.k&n and free flow dont strain the engine rather thay help the engine perform better.members with swapped engined cars,turbos,nos etc do require synthetic oils.
but my question is "do you need synthetic oil for your every day commutes to the office".
2. Extreme conditions. Manufacturers recommend 20W40 mineral oil. what if you are going to operate in sub zero? You will need atleast 10W40 or 5W40 which is more commonly found in synthetic/semi synthetic oils.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Moreover no matter whether machinery is old or new, won't better lubrication increase life. Esp during cold starts(5-10degrees at delhi winters) when the 20W40 oil will not be effective. When engine gets warm things are okay, but what about 2 minutes of torture your engine will go through because your oil was designed for minimum 20 degrees temperature?
where did you get the 20 degrees part from???
the 20 in "20w40" means the viscosity of oil at low temperatures and "40" means the viscosity of oil at normal running conditions.so a sae10w40 oil will flow better than 15w40 oil at the same ambient temperature.also the loer the initial number,thinner will be the lubrication film.
and how much life will be increased.do you as a user plan to use the car in that extra life that it gets. mineral oil can make the engine easily cross 150 k but by that time your engine would have lost its compression ratio,piston rings will need to be changed etc etc.

Agree with you on the cost part. Thats the only reason for me too not to go for synthetic yet. But in mineral oil space too I try to go above Tata's recommendation of CD grade. I put in CG though workshops go in for just CF at the most.

Also Indian driving conditions are very demanding. Lots of heat, cold-heat transformations can lead to sludge buildups. Somebody who changes oils every 6000kms or so will do okay with 15W40, but if you don't(which many people don't) a better oil will stay good for longer periods.[/quote]


well what i would say is that its best to stick the manufacturer's recommendation and they are the best authority on what is required for runing the engine.after all they built it.
if you have done some serious mods to your cars,go for synthetic oils.
it all depends on what you expect from your vehicle.
whats the point of saying that synthetic oils increase engine life when we indulge in bunny hops from traffic lights,whel spins,downshifting without blipping the throttle.....you get what im trying to say!!
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