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Old 16th January 2009, 21:16   #151
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Water injection: High cylinder temperatures lead to high NOx emissions - water injection helps cut down emissions by a huge amount.
Does water injection help with only emissions, or does it also increase power output?

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Diesel engines use fuel as a means to carry away heat to prevent high EGTs. When your engine puts out black smoke - its usually because it is running rich. Diesel engines do not like to be revved up - and when accelerating you will notice smoke early on and the smoke will disappear as the turbo spools up and your AFR reaches its optimum point.

Again, keep an eye on your EGT (Exhaust gas temp) if you're modifying your turbo diesel!
I've noticed that, at the start of the acceleration there is smoke, but once the car gets up to speed, the smoke is gone.
Engine temp(not EGT) so far has been fine. stays at the same level as it was when the car was stock. I dont do sustained high speed runs anyway.
But like you said, I'm constantly watching the engine temp gauge.

Where should the EGT be measured? at the tailpipe, or higher upstream? Are there after market gauges that can be used for that? How straightforward is it to install one?
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Old 16th January 2009, 22:45   #152
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hi there everybody,

i drive a 1992 80 series toyota LC 4200cc non turbo version... i guess i have 116 odd bhp on the tap, the injectors are cleaned every 50,000kms, but i hav'nt let anyone touch the fuel pump, i really cant trust anyone with it.. i am planning to fix an aftermarket turbo charger to the engine, how do i find out what kind to get??? different people have told me different specs... kinda now!!!

help me out pleeeez

SAUD...
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Old 16th January 2009, 23:41   #153
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Does water injection help with only emissions, or does it also increase power output?
I do not have first-hand experience, but the power advantage from water injection comes from its cooling. Since the water is able to cool the engine, you can run the engine harder without overheating. So yes, it can increase power output but indirectly. I think tyically a 90%/10% fuel/water ratio is used but I dont know how much power it actually delivers. Propane injection is another option that works very well with diesels. However, I doubt this is practical for a DD unless you're an absolute nut

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I've noticed that, at the start of the acceleration there is smoke, but once the car gets up to speed, the smoke is gone. Engine temp(not EGT) so far has been fine. stays at the same level as it was when the car was stock. I dont do sustained high speed runs anyway.
But like you said, I'm constantly watching the engine temp gauge.
The engine temp will typically be perfectly fine, so don't concern yourself with that. Your engine wont overheat unless you're under heavy load at low speeds.

I have not driven any manual diesels. All of the ones I've driven are trucks (pick-up trucks), but the transmission temperature is of concern with elevated power levels. The torque converter can slip too much which elevates temperatures quickly.
Remember that these chips make power by taxing the fuel delivery system. I'm sure the manufacturor has though of this, but it something to keep in mind. Your turbo can blow more air but it may be at the cost of efficiency.
Your best bet is to install a decent CAI and make sure your exhaust isn't too restrictive. Turbo diesels move a LOT of air and they need large exhaust systems. What do you drive, and whats the stock boost in your car? Any idea?

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Where should the EGT be measured? at the tailpipe, or higher upstream? Are there after market gauges that can be used for that? How straightforward is it to install one?
The engine temp is just your coolant temp - and that tells you nothing about EGTs. You can install it right before the turbo or right after. If you install it after the turbo, remember that there is a good 100+ drop as the turbo extracts energy from the exhaust. I don't know anything about the engine you're running so you should probably ask someone else about operating temperatures. Typically you want to stay below 1200*F/650*C
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Old 17th January 2009, 18:10   #154
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@Atlblkz6
I believe derestricting the exhaust system with larger dia intermediate pipes etc wont help quite a bit would it? The turbo uses most of the exhaust gases right?
Plus the exhaust note is going to be horrible.
And if the headers are not re-designed accurately then quite a few things will go for a toss...:-D
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Old 17th January 2009, 18:40   #155
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@atlblkz06
Thank you for the detailed replies. I drive the 1.3 Fiat MJD with a FGTurbo,The 1.5 litre CRDi from hyundai and the 2.5 litre TDCi from ford. Its a manual. I Have added the PSI tuning box and a CAI to the 1.3 litre fiat engine,which helps a lot but the car really suffers when the ambient temperatures are high(Noon and evening). But am stuck when it comes to exhaust options. I've been told that modifying the exhaust in a turbo diesel is not practical/possible in india.

I do know that the power improvement from water injection comes indirectly from the cooling effect, but had no idea that the ratio was as high as 90/10.
Any good links where I can read up more?

I did enquire about propane injection, and there are a few members on this forum who have pulled it off succesfully, but they have used the system in the older gen indirect injection engines. Pardon me, but what is a DD?
Yes, i think you can safely classify me as a nut!
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Old 17th January 2009, 19:05   #156
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@rippergeo- with DD he means daily drive.
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Old 17th January 2009, 19:08   #157
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@rippergeo- with DD he means daily drive.
Oh! Ok, thanks, but in that case, why is it not practical to have propane injection in a daily driver? Other than the obvious safety hazard
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Old 17th January 2009, 22:25   #158
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Oh! Ok, thanks, but in that case, why is it not practical to have propane injection in a daily driver? Other than the obvious safety hazard
I think well-designed tanks are quite safe. I figured you just wouldn't like to lose your trunk space to a propane tank. If you're married, I'm sure your wife will glare at you every time you go shopping lol.

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@atlblkz06
I Have added the PSI tuning box and a CAI to the 1.3 litre fiat engine,which helps a lot but the car really suffers when the ambient temperatures are high(Noon and evening). But am stuck when it comes to exhaust options. I've been told that modifying the exhaust in a turbo diesel is not practical/possible in india.
I think an upgraded intercooler might be one of the best mods for Indian diesels given the high ambient temps as you noted. Along with chipping the car and possibly working on the exhaust, this will probably be a worth upgrade. Do you know what your IAT (Intake Air Temp) looks like? About the exhaust - I guess not many turbo-back exhaust systems are available? The market is still in it's infancy though - things will only get better!

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I do know that the power improvement from water injection comes indirectly from the cooling effect, but had no idea that the ratio was as high as 90/10. Any good links where I can read up more?
Hmm I dont have any direct links, but googling is always fun! The diesel market is very very small, so take a look at european car forums. You might get a lot more information there.

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@Atlblkz6
I believe derestricting the exhaust system with larger dia intermediate pipes etc wont help quite a bit would it? The turbo uses most of the exhaust gases right?
Plus the exhaust note is going to be horrible.
And if the headers are not re-designed accurately then quite a few things will go for a toss...:-D
Well the point is to reduce any back-pressure from the turbo-back, so we're not messing with the headers. How much this will help really depends on how restrictive the exhaust is. I'm used to seeing 4-5" exhaust on diesels because they're all 5.9 - 7.3L engines so I dont know what size you'd need for a car. They all sound damn good though (to my twisted ears). Then again I think my car sounds good, and my sister tells me she can hear my car from 1/4 mile away, and when I pull into the garage the house vibrates from the near straight-pipe exhaust

I'm really waiting for some "Fast and Furious" type of movie to hit Bollywood. I'm sure boosting cars will gain mainstream acceptance and the market will change. In the US, Holley's sales apparently shot up by several hundred % points after the first F&F movie was released. (They own the NOS trademark) Unfortunately this will also sharply increase the number of dumbasses on the road trying to show off in their riced out cars, but thats life I guess.
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Old 18th January 2009, 00:11   #159
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I'm used to seeing 4-5" exhaust on diesels because they're all 5.9 - 7.3L engines so I dont know what size you'd need for a car..
Am a little bad at math so if you can help me out with a 1.5L CRDi VGT, and the i can only make out the restrictiveness by the shape of the intermediate pipes but i would'nt know if the cat-con or end-can is restrictive.
I am guessing a 2"-2.5" dia pipe should be fine. You dont want to disturb the pulse flow do you! With wide pipes.

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They all sound damn good though (to my twisted ears). .
Likewise with me bro. But i have an inpression that it might turn out to sound like a truck.

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I'm sure boosting cars will gain mainstream acceptance and the market will change.
The above in bold also reffers to stealing cars. Do you really want that to gain "mainstream acceptance"?
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Old 18th January 2009, 00:13   #160
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why is it not practical to have propane injection in a daily driver? Other than the obvious safety hazard
That was exactly my point bro, i dont want to become my profile pic.
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Old 18th January 2009, 07:28   #161
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I think well-designed tanks are quite safe. I figured you just wouldn't like to lose your trunk space to a propane tank. If you're married, I'm sure your wife will glare at you every time you go shopping lol.
My car is not known for its boot space(2007 Swift), so that will be a problem, and like you said, the lady of the house, also looks down on my modding craze



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Originally Posted by Atlblkz06 View Post
I think an upgraded intercooler might be one of the best mods for Indian diesels given the high ambient temps as you noted. Along with chipping the car and possibly working on the exhaust, this will probably be a worth upgrade. Do you know what your IAT (Intake Air Temp) looks like?
I have been thinking on the same lines, but hesitant to shell out money on unproven mods. Without knowing my IAT and the temp of the air after the stock intercooler, there will be no way of actually knowing how much of an improvement I can expect after an intercooler upgrade. So, sitting on the fence on that one.
Gaaawd, we need better tuners in this country
Measuring the IAT is not going to be difficult, I hope? just need an industrial thermometer or something that can be secured to the end of the CAI pipe right?
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Old 18th January 2009, 10:35   #162
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I have been thinking on the same lines, but hesitant to shell out money on unproven mods. Without knowing my IAT and the temp of the air after the stock intercooler, there will be no way of actually knowing how much of an improvement I can expect after an intercooler upgrade. So, sitting on the fence on that one.
Measuring the IAT is not going to be difficult, I hope? just need an industrial thermometer or something that can be secured to the end of the CAI pipe right?
Your car already knows the IAT. It uses it to calculate fuel maps. Just plug into the OBD-2 port and you're set.

Upgrading your intercooler is a very safe mod. As long as you pick a good high quality unit and put it in a safe place, you cant really go wrong.

Honestly, you're in a very small market and you cant start looking for a proven track record with mods either. If a proven system was already there - someone would have put their name on it and they'd be selling it to you with 50% markup Look at what people are doing with other cars and plan accordingly. Of course in the long run there are risks.

Just make sure you have a long term plan - don't buy mods randomly. You have to plan ahead so they all work together and synergize the results to your advantage.
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Old 18th January 2009, 15:14   #163
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Your car already knows the IAT. It uses it to calculate fuel maps. Just plug into the OBD-2 port and you're set.
DOH! Didnt think about that. Thanks for the tip. Time to maska the friendly neighbourhood MASS.

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Upgrading your intercooler is a very safe mod. As long as you pick a good high quality unit and put it in a safe place, you cant really go wrong.
The only doubt I have here, is, the location for the intercooler currently might not accomodate the aftermarket one, a top mounted intercooler will increase the length of the plumbing and the number of bends, that the air will have to negotiate before it gets into the engine. I realise that you wont be able to advise me on that until you compare stock and aftermarket yourself, so, Will put up pics when I have accumulated enough dough to go for the next mod.

Is the OBD also taking reading of the temp of the air after the intercooler?

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Just make sure you have a long term plan - don't buy mods randomly. You have to plan ahead so they all work together and synergize the results to your advantage.
Useful advice, will keep it in mind.
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Old 19th January 2009, 03:22   #164
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The only doubt I have here, is, the location for the intercooler currently might not accomodate the aftermarket one, a top mounted intercooler will increase the length of the plumbing and the number of bends, that the air will have to negotiate before it gets into the engine. I realise that you wont be able to advise me on that until you compare stock and aftermarket yourself, so, Will put up pics when I have accumulated enough dough to go for the next mod.

Is the OBD also taking reading of the temp of the air after the intercooler?
The IAT is the final temp of the air going into the engine after everything. It's usually not too far from the MAF sensor.

Bends in the the intercooler piping aren't a huge concern since the tubing is large, and the bends are smooth. Intercooler placement is quite important. Top mount intercoolers typically dont work as well as Front Mount InterCoolers (FMIC) so if your car has an intercooler up top, move it up front.

You know - if you spend a little money to come up with the exact dimensions of a replacement unit - you can create a "package" and sell it on forums like these and make money. Forum sales is big business in the states.

If you can take some detailed pics of your car and maybe start a new project thread, it'd be cool. good luck with it!
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Old 20th January 2009, 20:45   #165
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The only doubt I have here, is, the location for the intercooler currently might not accomodate the aftermarket one, a top mounted intercooler will increase the length of the plumbing and the number of bends, that the air will have to negotiate before it gets into the engine. I realise that you wont be able to advise me on that until you compare stock and aftermarket yourself, so, Will put up pics when I have accumulated enough dough to go for the next mod.
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Bends in the the intercooler piping aren't a huge concern since the tubing is large, and the bends are smooth. Intercooler placement is quite important. Top mount intercoolers typically dont work as well as Front Mount InterCoolers (FMIC) so if your car has an intercooler up top, move it up front.
I would'nt quite agree.
An FMIC set-up will use more plumbing than a top-mounted set-up. But you would of-course have to build an air-scoop for it. A Top-mounted set-up w.r.t the Swift 1.3 DDiS would make more sense as the distance from the IC to the turbo and headers would be shorter, unless the turbo is located closer to the mid of the block near the bumpers in which case FMIC works best. The point is shortest plumbing=less lag. And thats what you should be looking for,the boost will still be the same.
In-short it'll still do the same top-end maybe a little more but it'll get you there faster.

SMIC on the other hand does need dedicated air-vents to operate with optimum efficiency. Its not such in the Swift. Maybe a reason for that is Indian conditions where there is a lot of dust to deal with.
@rippergeo you could try to mount the stock IC in a FMIC set-up and see if it makes a difference, then go in for a bigger IC accordingly.

I would say since the Swift uses a FGT go in for a boost controller and up the boost to increase the performance. They probably cost the same as a tuning box. And you will see a good difference in performance across the rev range.
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