Go Back   Team-BHP > Buckle Up > Motor-Sports


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 3rd September 2010, 13:26   #16
BHPian
 
Vibhanshu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 182
Thanked: 14 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horn_Ok_Plz View Post
I'm looking to buy a 2nd hand car to get into rallying. After doing my research I had narrowed down on the esteem as the ideal car to get started in rallying. And today in the INRC, most of the cars are either cedias or esteems.

But yesterday, my buddy told me he wanted to sell his 2001 lancer which has been maintained very well. So now I'm not so sure any more. What do you guys think... would you recommend the esteem, lancer or a 3rd car? And why is the esteem so popular anyways?
You should also consider Baleno. Very high mod potential and a robust car. Ofcourse chassis stability of Lancer is where it beat all its competitor. But Baleno is good to start with.
Vibhanshu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2010, 14:27   #17
BHPian
 
NOS Power's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Kolkata
Posts: 388
Thanked: 55 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vibhanshu View Post
You should also consider Baleno. Very high mod potential and a robust car. Ofcourse chassis stability of Lancer is where it beat all its competitor. But Baleno is good to start with.
Vibhanshu, the Baleno is also a very expensive car to maintain. Parts are atleast 3 times that of the esteem. And when one can run a Baleno then better to go for a Cedia.

The question here is about starting a rally career. In this case an esteem is the best bet. Participating in a Baleno means you are competing with max 3 competitors and the cost of spares will be a deterent to future plans. The 1400 class is the best place to start, cars are easily available, so are spares and tuners. Plus the competition is good there. Some seasoned runners and newbies.
NOS Power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2010, 20:08   #18
Newbie
 
Horn_Ok_Plz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Nasik
Posts: 9
Thanked: 0 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by speedmiester View Post
There are some good rally modified RSC cars on the market for sale. PM me if you are interested in buying them.
YES, YES... that would be perfect speedmeister!!
But I"m unable to PM you since I haven't reached 25 posts Can you PM/email me your number to apurba.m@gmail.com


Quote:
Originally Posted by racingmachine View Post
These days the licence is given by FMSCI, not MAI. And if i'm not wrong, licences are issued on yearly basis, so applying now will give you a licence for this year. But if you plan to compete next year, you need to get a new licence made from and after 1st January, 2011.
Hhmm, good point. Need to check on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeeva View Post
Someone I know in the racing circuit (he used to be associated with the pit stop, servicing the cars) vouches for the MPFI Esteem.
He says the carb ones will have to be tuned very often depending on the demanding conditions and prone to over heating/starting and carb setting related issues.
Thanks Jeeva. But using an MPFI esteem means that we won't be able to compete in the RSC, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOS Power View Post
My 2 cents.

Forget the RSC as it is infact more expensive than the 1400 class these days and unscertainity regarding the machinery is huge.
Thanks NOS Power, great inputs... clears a lot of doubts in my mind. Can you clarify what you meant by RSC is more expensive than 1400 class? Is is the entry fee that you re talking about? And uncertainty in terms of carb engine reliability?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOS Power View Post
Vibhanshu, the Baleno is also a very expensive car to maintain. Parts are atleast 3 times that of the esteem. And when one can run a Baleno then better to go for a Cedia.

The question here is about starting a rally career. In this case an esteem is the best bet. Participating in a Baleno means you are competing with max 3 competitors and the cost of spares will be a deterent to future plans. The 1400 class is the best place to start, cars are easily available, so are spares and tuners. Plus the competition is good there. Some seasoned runners and newbies.
So, I'm sold on the esteem now... just have to decide between carb and MPFI, though leaning towards MPFI now after hearing about the reliability issues with carb engine
Horn_Ok_Plz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2010, 09:07   #19
Senior - BHPian
 
headers's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Greater Chennai
Posts: 4,548
Thanked: 424 Times
Default

Yup MpFi is the way to go-All the best!~
headers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2010, 15:09   #20
BHPian
 
desmoquattro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Waterloo,Canada
Posts: 79
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeeva View Post
He says the carb ones will have to be tuned very often depending on the demanding conditions and prone to over heating/starting and carb setting related issues.
Thats wrong. It is not as big a problem as he makes it sound. Infact, its not a problem at all. Thats the whole thing about a 'carb', you see... Its got to be tuned. Part of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOS Power View Post
My 2 cents.

Forget the RSC as it is infact more expensive than the 1400 class these days and unscertainity regarding the machinery is huge. In the 1400 class, you can take each season as it comes and improve, also you have the added advantage of having your own car at your disposal as and when you want.
Thats wrong. 1400s are definitely more expensive (+ ECU + this + that etc..).
You may also want to compare the RSC Vs 1400 prize money, entry fee etc. Check fmsci's website.

Last edited by desmoquattro : 6th September 2010 at 15:11.
desmoquattro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2010, 21:28   #21
BHPian
 
NOS Power's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Kolkata
Posts: 388
Thanked: 55 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by desmoquattro View Post
Thats wrong. It is not as big a problem as he makes it sound. Infact, its not a problem at all. Thats the whole thing about a 'carb', you see... Its got to be tuned. Part of the game.

Desmo, what Jeeva says is right, as an mpfi does not require as frequent tune ups as a carb. Its a simple logic, an ECU adjusts the way an engine should work, depending on a lot factors. But a carb will need to be tuned to run richer if say the altitude is more or something etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by desmoquattro View Post
Thats wrong. 1400s are definitely more expensive (+ ECU + this + that etc..).
You may also want to compare the RSC Vs 1400 prize money, entry fee etc. Check fmsci's website.
There is only the ECU part that is extra, the +this +that is the same with the carb also. Another thing is that running a carb car has a lot of strings attached. You can't run with it for that many years as the mpfi. Also the car will be older and much more used. Parts replacement is more frequent. I see these things happening as I am a rallyist myself.

Also you can never think about prize money now, its a long story. Regarding entry fees, its a difference of a mere Rs. 5000. On an avg. an INRC season would need a budget of Rs. 15 lakhs if you want a competitive car and participate in all rallies.

The biggest point is that in the RSC class you have a handful of competitors, whereas the 1400 has more.

For a starter I would say, start with the 1400 class with the mpfi esteem, parts are available in plenty and cheap. Also competition is a lot more, which is more important in any career, as you can evaluate yourself and improve. Taking the easy or cheaper route in an intensely competitive motorsports environment is the best bet for failure.
NOS Power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2010, 22:13   #22
BHPian
 
e4gleeyez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Navi Mumbai
Posts: 40
Thanked: 20 Times
Default

MPFI is the way to go

Tuning carbs and getting it right will pose a huge challenge.

Whereas a 2001 MPI good car will cost you approx 1.5 in and around Nasik, Mumbai area.

Modding the car with role cage after market stuff suspension, tuner fees etc for the 1st year will cost you 1.5lac. I am being conservative out here
e4gleeyez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2010, 23:43   #23
BHPian
 
megazoid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 180
Thanked: 126 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOS Power View Post

Also you can never think about prize money now, its a long story. Regarding entry fees, its a difference of a mere Rs. 5000. On an avg. an INRC season would need a budget of Rs. 15 lakhs if you want a competitive car and participate in all rallies.

The biggest point is that in the RSC class you have a handful of competitors, whereas the 1400 has more.

For a starter I would say, start with the 1400 class with the mpfi esteem, parts are available in plenty and cheap. Also competition is a lot more, which is more important in any career, as you can evaluate yourself and improve. Taking the easy or cheaper route in an intensely competitive motorsports environment is the best bet for failure.
Am not so sure about things that you have mentioned here. Are you sure that RSC class has lesser entries than 1400 usually?

@horn_ok_plz

Another thing that one realizes the moment one starts rallying is that most things are alright with any car RSC/1400/1600/2000, its usually the driving and navigating part that would need a lot of work if you don't want to be an also ran.

The chances of things going wrong are far higher when the cars get more sophisticated. For a beginner, pick a cheap car that you would not mind abusing and start rallying. Hone skills and then you get ideas thereafter yourself.
megazoid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2010, 23:55   #24
Senior - BHPian
 
nitrous's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UAE/Lon/Madras
Posts: 6,965
Thanked: 264 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by megazoid
Another thing that one realizes the moment one starts rallying is that most things are alright with any car RSC/1400/1600/2000, its usually the driving and navigating part that would need a lot of work if you don't want to be an also ran.

The chances of things going wrong are far higher when the cars get more sophisticated. For a beginner, pick a cheap car that you would not mind abusing and start rallying. Hone skills and then you get ideas thereafter yourself.
+1

Look at it from a career perspective.
For eg: All formula one drivers today had to start with karts.
nitrous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2010, 10:30   #25
BHPian
 
NOS Power's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Kolkata
Posts: 388
Thanked: 55 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by megazoid View Post
Am not so sure about things that you have mentioned here. Are you sure that RSC class has lesser entries than 1400 usually?

@horn_ok_plz

Another thing that one realizes the moment one starts rallying is that most things are alright with any car RSC/1400/1600/2000, its usually the driving and navigating part that would need a lot of work if you don't want to be an also ran.

The chances of things going wrong are far higher when the cars get more sophisticated. For a beginner, pick a cheap car that you would not mind abusing and start rallying. Hone skills and then you get ideas thereafter yourself.
If you consider the price difference between a carb esteem say of 1998 and an mpfi esteem of say 2002, how much of a price difference will it be? Even if the carb car is half the price will you not buy a newer machine? We are talking about cars that cost Rs. 1.5 lakhs at the max. We are not comparing a Rs. 70,000 car with a Rs. 7 lakh car. The ECU and wiring harnesses are the only difference, the rest is the same.

To give you another idea of costs as mentioned in another post that the rental for an RSC car goes past Rs. 75000 if you want JAnand suspension. If the suspension breaks then you have to pay for a new set, which is around Rs. 80000, which still won't be your own, rather you will continue paying rent for that.

Now if you rent or purchase an RSC car which has done a few rallies already, can you guarantee that it'll run cheaper than an esteem mpfi which was used in the city previously? Rather than rent a car which may have unknown defects its better to start with a clean sheet of paper. So that you know right from the start what condition the car is and with every step up on modifications you know how it is performing. Starting with basics means knowing what the car was and has been made into.

An example would be that would anyone buy an already modded street car, even if it has the very same mods the buyer desires? Or will he buy a stock car and then modify?

Since when did the mpfi esteem become sophisticated? Its got a simple fuel injection system. In comparison the carb esteems are more difficult to tune (for all out racing) and trust me the mpfi doesn't need as many engine tunings as the carb.

My point is that the easy way sometimes bites you real hard. One will come to know of it only later. You can speak to regular rallyists about this carb vs 1400 matter.

To give you a real world scenario, why has the 1600cc class have only 3 or four entries? Why did the rest of them move up to the more sophisticated and expensive Cedia Group N cars? Because it makes no sense in running in a class where there are so few entries and also that the parts for the car are hard to procure.

Since when did the mpfi esteem become sophisticated? Its got a simple fuel injection system. In comparison the carb esteems are more difficult to tune (for all out racing) and trust me the mpfi doesn't need as many engine tunings as the carb.

The way it is being discussed that the carb esteem is a simple machine to start with and that the mpfi is more costly and more sophisticated is not true. I think suggestions should not be given on mere theory, the practical side needs to be considered.

One reality of the INRC is that majority newbies start with the RSC because its what is suggested to them by the fmsci and motorsports clubs, but they later do understand that its cheaper and better to run in the 1400 class.

Also the RSC class won't have carb esteems for more than 2 years from now. Then what will happen to the car if you still don't have enough money to go up to the Group N Cedia? If you think of swapping the carb engine with an mpfi think again. Your car will be already known to both the officials and fellow competitors, the last thing you would want after spending a lot of money doing the engine transplant is a disqualification or a protest lodged against you.
NOS Power is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2010, 10:52   #26
BHPian
 
megazoid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 180
Thanked: 126 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOS Power View Post
IThe ECU and wiring harnesses are the only difference, the rest is the same.

Now if you rent or purchase an RSC car which has done a few rallies already, can you guarantee that it'll run cheaper than an esteem mpfi which was used in the city previously? Rather than rent a car which may have unknown defects its better to start with a clean sheet of paper. So that you know right from the start what condition the car is and with every step up on modifications you know how it is performing. Starting with basics means knowing what the car was and has been made into.

An example would be that would anyone buy an already modded street car, even if it has the very same mods the buyer desires? Or will he buy a stock car and then modify?

Since when did the mpfi esteem become sophisticated? Its got a simple fuel injection system. In comparison the carb esteems are more difficult to tune (for all out racing) and trust me the mpfi doesn't need as many engine tunings as the carb.

My point is that the easy way sometimes bites you real hard. One will come to know of it only later. You can speak to regular rallyists about this carb vs 1400 matter.

To give you a real world scenario, why has the 1600cc class have only 3 or four entries? Why did the rest of them move up to the more sophisticated and expensive Cedia Group N cars? Because it makes no sense in running in a class where there are so few entries and also that the parts for the car are hard to procure.

Since when did the mpfi esteem become sophisticated? Its got a simple fuel injection system. In comparison the carb esteems are more difficult to tune (for all out racing) and trust me the mpfi doesn't need as many engine tunings as the carb.

The way it is being discussed that the carb esteem is a simple machine to start with and that the mpfi is more costly and more sophisticated is not true. I think suggestions should not be given on mere theory, the practical side needs to be considered.

One reality of the INRC is that majority newbies start with the RSC because its what is suggested to them by the fmscithing much and motorsports clubs, but they later do understand that its cheaper and better to run in the 1400 class.

Also the RSC class won't have carb esteems for more than 2 years from now. Then what will happen to the car if you still don't have enough money to go up to the Group N Cedia? If you think of swapping the carb engine with an mpfi think again. Your car will be already known to both the officials and fellow competitors, the last thing you would want after spending a lot of money doing the engine transplant is a disqualification or a protest lodged against you.
hmm. Let me digest all this information. Anyway, Nothing much to argue about.

@horn_ok_plz

Any decisions/purchases made ? Do let us know about it.
megazoid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2010, 11:00   #27
BHPian
 
NOS Power's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Kolkata
Posts: 388
Thanked: 55 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by megazoid View Post
hmm. Let me digest all this information. Anyway, Nothing much to argue about.

@horn_ok_plz

Any decisions/purchases made ? Do let us know about it.
Megazoid, its not an argument. Rather a good discussion. Since many of us are not aware of a lot of things, its easier when proper advise is given. Even I didn't know anything when I entered the motorsports scenario, and trust me I still don't know a hell lot.

A friend of mine has burnt his fingers and have heard of many such instances, hence my insistance on the mpfi.

@horn_ok_plz, do have your own research and decide.
NOS Power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2010, 11:29   #28
BHPian
 
desmoquattro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Waterloo,Canada
Posts: 79
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOS Power View Post

Since when did the mpfi esteem become sophisticated? Its got a simple fuel injection system. In comparison the carb esteems are more difficult to tune (for all out racing) and trust me the mpfi doesn't need as many engine tunings as the carb.

My point is that the easy way sometimes bites you real hard. One will come to know of it only later. You can speak to regular rallyists about this carb vs 1400 matter.

To give you a real world scenario, why has the 1600cc class have only 3 or four entries? Why did the rest of them move up to the more sophisticated and expensive Cedia Group N cars? Because it makes no sense in running in a class where there are so few entries and also that the parts for the car are hard to procure.

The way it is being discussed that the carb esteem is a simple machine to start with and that the mpfi is more costly and more sophisticated is not true. I think suggestions should not be given on mere theory, the practical side needs to be considered.
To each, his own.

RSC is made the 'starter' class for a reason.
desmoquattro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2010, 11:42   #29
BHPian
 
NOS Power's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Kolkata
Posts: 388
Thanked: 55 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by desmoquattro View Post
To each, his own.

RSC is made the 'starter' class for a reason.
Maybe, but I and a lot of rallyists go by practical sense and not theory.

Many of my friends have burnt their fingers (and holes in their wallets) in this very form of motorsport. Atleast they haven't burnt it for nothing.

Infact I also used to weigh my decisions on theory and boy o boy was I so wrong.

Its very simple to use theory and write something, when one hasn't seen the practical side of it.

Theory goes out of the window when the buck stops and all hell breaks lose.
NOS Power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2010, 11:46   #30
BHPian
 
desmoquattro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Waterloo,Canada
Posts: 79
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

NOS power, whats your real name? We might have met.
desmoquattro is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Which is better - A car which has driven 1 lac kms in 4 years or 35,000 in 6 years syravi Technical Stuff 41 7th May 2016 16:21
Better Engineered car vs Feature rich car: Which will you prefer Abhi_Automobile The Indian Car Scene 59 22nd April 2011 23:39
swift-vxi,logan-dlx,esteem-vxi which one is better ???? uvais Hatchbacks 4 17th October 2007 10:17
Better roads.. better late (than never) Laxminarayan Street Experiences 1 12th April 2006 03:14


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 15:47.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks