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Old 2nd February 2012, 10:59   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajaybiz
DTSI stands for Digital Twin Spark Ignition if i am not worng, then this bike should be again same DTSI (T=Triple) and next version with 4 plugs will come with new name as DQSi (Digital Quad Spark Ignition).
Seems to be other bike manufacturers are fool that they are not putting more than one plug in single cylinder
Can someone put the comparision figure between this and KTM200.
Tvs I think tried. Probably didn't suit them.
Maybe cos they tried to drop it in rather than use it as a base manufacturing criteria.
Big patent suit happened.
That's why the others are maybe keeping away.
In fact bajaj too had some trouble with ducati.
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Old 2nd February 2012, 12:35   #107
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Default re: The All New Bajaj Pulsar 200NS Unveiled! Update: Rs 84,096- ex showroom Pune

Quote:
Originally Posted by antz.bin View Post
I like the way you make me dig deeper . First of all, I must confess that I do not work for Bajaj and I am just a happy Pulsarian and proud of the new feat achieved by BAL whatever means they might have used to achieve it. I will try to explain it to myself (Oh Yeah Myself!!) with whatever little knowledge I have and what I can source through Google in the next 1 hour .

Regards,
Anant
good to see some tech discussion going on instead of other stuff.

I also would like to know the details about the 3 Spark tech.
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Old 2nd February 2012, 17:59   #108
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Default re: The All New Bajaj Pulsar 200NS Unveiled! Update: Rs 84,096- ex showroom Pune

Looks good. Just one doubt; with such a low exhaust, what will happen during monsoon with Mumbai roads becoming regularly water logged?
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Old 2nd February 2012, 19:01   #109
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Originally Posted by antz.bin
No I cannot. I am not a Bajaj Insider. Anyways, why would BAL share it with the public when the applied-for patent is still pending?
Antz once patents are applied for they are virtually in eyes of everyone sine relevant patent seekers will then be automatically sent back to queue unless decision comes for issuance and for the same reason they are allowed to be open so that fresh patent seekers can judge their claim prehand. There is a grace period for the claim I think its about 12 months please do correct me if I am wrong. Cheers.

Here is the link to search among applied patents, if you know the number http://ipindia.nic.in/ipirs1/patentsearch.htm.
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Old 2nd February 2012, 22:07   #110
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Default re: The All New Bajaj Pulsar 200NS Unveiled! Update: Rs 84,096- ex showroom Pune

@antz.bin: Lets see what others have to say.

In your place, I'd start from

Quote:
Originally Posted by antz.bin View Post
DOHC refers to Double Overhead Camshaft.
....
DOHC engines also allows the spark plug to be placed right in the middle of the combustion chamber. This promotes efficient combustion. With SOHC, the camshaft is usually in the middle of the head because it has to drive both the intake and exhaust valves, robbing the sparkplug of it’s optimal location.
and see where it leads me. (As I asked originally, thinking behind a modern DOHC. The central placement is even more important for diesels.)

OT question: How technically important is a desmo setup for a modern engine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rangakishen View Post
Just my thoughts: Higher the CCs, greater the quantity of fuel to be fed to the engine. At higher RPMs, carbs will be highly inefficient. For large CCs, it is preferable that the fuel is fed in a faster and more distributed way.
...
So for different situations, we have big carbs and small carbs. And single choke, twin choke, twin barrel, quad .......
What is an (in)efficient carb?

Regards
Sutripta

PS I must add that to me, it is the frame (not engine) which marks BAL's coming of age.

Last edited by Sutripta : 2nd February 2012 at 22:19.
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Old 2nd February 2012, 23:02   #111
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Default re: The All New Bajaj Pulsar 200NS Unveiled! Update: Rs 84,096- ex showroom Pune

Got a bit of info from the document linked here. It basically states that a spark of greater length promotes more even burning, and relatively more consistent flame front resulting in a cleaner burn:


Quote:
Drawbacks of Electric Sparks

Electric sparks are very hot and fast-acting ignition sources. Because the discharge time of an electric spark is very short (of the order of 10-8 to 10-7 s), the energy that is imparted to the gas at the end of the discharge period is highly concentrated, so that a very steep temperature profile with a very high temperature at the center is established. In this initial stage of flame development, the chemical liberation is insufficient to maintain such steep temperature profiles, so that the profile broadens and the temperature at the center decreases within a period of time which depends on the physical and chemical properties of the gas, and provided that the discharge energy is sufficient, the profile develops to that of a minimal flame and thence continues to propagate as a combustion wave and the temperature in the center becomes approximately the flame temperature.

The process of spark ignition depends on many parameters such as energy, peak voltage, duration of discharge, geometry of the spark gap, and its location relative to the particular geometry of the compressed charge.

However, the conventional spark plug system is quite ineffective when igniting a lean mixture below an equivalence ratio of about 0.8 for gasoline and air.

Some studies have been carried out on high-energy ignition systems. Such systems give an increased peak power to the spark and also increase the duration of the spark.

The development is based on the premise that by proper control of the manner in which the plasma is generated by the spark discharge, leading in particular to the prolongation of its duration, more unburned mixtures can be exposed to it, an effect that can be greatly enhanced by the use of squish whereby a significant amount of mixture can be caused to pass by the spark gap and be mixed with the plasma, generating thereby in effect, a system of distributed ignition sources.

Tests have shown on single as well as multi-cylinder engines that increasing the gap width, its projection and the duration of the spark (with duration enhanced from 1 to 2 ms to 5 to 10 ms), the mixtures 10-15% leaner than those ignited by the conventional spark plug) can be ignited. According to Aiman , based on the ignition system of Johnston and Neuman , the amount of exhaust gas recirculation, which a single cylinder engine tolerated without misfire, increased when the duration of the spark was increased at a given arc current. This may be due to multiple opportunities for ignition or due to increased ignition energy.

The use of multiple ignition points (usually limited to two spark plugs) as compared to a single spark plug has also improved the combustion characteristics of the spark ignition engine.
It also helps reduce pinking or knocking (reference Wiki) by reducing the probability of unburnt pockets of air-fuel mixture, which might decide to burn at an inopportune moment.

Apparently flame fronts are studied in great detail through computer-modelling, and combustion chambers, cylinder heads and pistons are designed to make them consistent and far-reaching (as comprehensive as possible) across as much of the rev range as possible. From the non-tech language, you may have guessed that this last paragraph is my own composition

Edit: Also found this link with a possible explanation about why the Pulsar doesn't need as big a catalytic converter as some other bikes:

Quote:
By increasing combustion efficiency, more torque and fewer emissions can be realized from any engine. Over the years, engine designers have improved the way engines mix the fuel and air together to increase combustion efficiency. The use of sophisticated computer systems on modern engines has further improved combustion efficiency by monitoring road and engine conditions, such as temperature and altitude, and precisely controlling the timing of the exact moment the spark occurs relative to the position of the crankshaft. Even with these improvements, the internal combustion engine is so inefficient at turning fuel into torque that the addition of emission control equipment is needed to remove unburned fuel from the exhaust.

Last edited by VeluM : 2nd February 2012 at 23:07.
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Old 2nd February 2012, 23:23   #112
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Default re: The All New Bajaj Pulsar 200NS Unveiled! Update: Rs 84,096- ex showroom Pune

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkdas View Post
I also would like to know the details about the 3 Spark tech.
So would I .

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
Fantastic consolidation!!
a simple thanks wont do.
This was a lot of information, very succinctly put.
Thanks brother. OT Question: Did you get your car yet? (PM the reply)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheel View Post
What do you feel?
As of now, I am new to both Team-BHP and Honda ownership. And I feel I agree with the reasons they are Pro-Honda even though I did have a slight hiccup in my initial ownership experience. Its all good now though.

And Congratulations Mr. Distinguished BHPian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saargoga View Post
Here is the link to search among applied patents, if you know the number IPO - Patent Search.
Thanks for the link. But I couldn't find the new patent here.

This I guess is the patent for the 2 valve DTSi engine.
IPO INDIA - IPIRS

This patent was filed on 08/08/2007 but published only on 16/10/2009. There is a 2+ year delay in publishing the application on the journal. God only knows when the new one will show up here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
@antz.bin: Lets see what others have to say.

In your place, I'd start from


and see where it leads me. (As I asked originally, thinking behind a modern DOHC. The central placement is even more important for diesels.)

OT question: How technically important is a desmo setup for a modern engine?


So for different situations, we have big carbs and small carbs. And single choke, twin choke, twin barrel, quad .......
What is an (in)efficient carb?

Regards
Sutripta

PS I must add that to me, it is the frame (not engine) which marks BAL's coming of age.
Why do you want me to go all the way to Desmo when the machine in question here doesn't even have DOHC? Could we keep that one for a relevant machine or move it to a dedicated technical discussion thread? Frankly I had no clue what this was till about 10 minutes back. Actually speaking, I still have no clue.

As for the Carb Vs Fi Query, I have no idea what kind of carbs are used for what application. IMO Fi was basically introduced to make vehicles pass stringent emission norms all over the world. Since these norms are not uniform all over the world, the same vehicle may have different setups in different countries depending upon the market positioning seeked, purchasing power of the target buyers, and the pertaining emission norms.

eg. The 4th gen Kawasaki Ninja 250R in the US comes with a Keihin CVK30 (2), Constant velocity, diaphragm-type carb setup and no cat-con. This bike here is positioned as the entry level 250(the smallest displacement street motorcycle available.) and is priced almost at par with the Honda CBR250R.

The same 4th gen Ninja 250R in the EU comes with Fuel Injection and no cat con. Here, it has much cheaper priced competitiors here like the Hyosung GT250(R/F) and the CBR250R. This bike here is supposed to be the fastest and the most powerful motorcycle newbie riders and first time motorcycle owners can legally ride without having a license even if they only have a car license. Basically used as a learner bike before you get a proper motorcycle license when you can graduate to more powerful bikes.

The very same 4th gen Ninja 250R in India comes with FI and 2 cat cons. This bike is the smallest displacement CKD and is positioned as a premium sports bike and is priced at a 1.3lac+ premium as compared to the standard Honda CBR250R.

Such a situation would make me wonder if actually the Indian emission norms are actually so hard to pass that it needed the Ninja 250R to have 2 extra Cat Cons to clear them as compared to the EU norms. To the non technically inclined (like me), this means that Fi is the tool which the manufacturers fall back on only in case they are unable to clear emission norms of a particular region. Thats exactly the reason why all cars have now switched to Fi. If carbs were so bloody efficient in clearing emission norms, what was even the need to add costs to entry level cars like the M800/Alto/Nano where a price difference of a few thousands is enough for people to consider switching loyalties.

Last edited by antz.bin : 2nd February 2012 at 23:35. Reason: typo
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Old 3rd February 2012, 08:29   #113
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Default re: The All New Bajaj Pulsar 200NS Unveiled! Update: Rs 84,096- ex showroom Pune

Wow! Great job Bajaj! Worthy successor especially to the original Pulsar 180 (without the fairing)!
Can't wait for a TD!
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Old 3rd February 2012, 14:52   #114
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Default re: The All New Bajaj Pulsar 200NS Unveiled! Update: Rs 84,096- ex showroom Pune

Quote:
Originally Posted by antz.bin View Post
Such a situation would make me wonder if actually the Indian emission norms are actually so hard to pass that it needed the Ninja 250R to have 2 extra Cat Cons to clear them as compared to the EU norms.
Or Indian fuel is so bad?
Quote:
DOHC engines also allows the spark plug to be placed right in the middle...
...Since SOHC means that the spark-plug is robbed of its optimum location
There are also other advantages like better valve timing.
Quote:
I am unable to make sense of the technical slides shown at the launch event.
I think those slides show how the flame spreads in each set up.
Quote:
The more the obstruction, the worse the performance, drivability and fuel economy.
Not really, as sometimes back pressure is important (for driveability?).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
I must add that to me, it is the frame (not engine) which marks BAL's coming of age.
+1
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Old 3rd February 2012, 16:00   #115
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Default re: The All New Bajaj Pulsar 200NS Unveiled! Update: Rs 84,096- ex showroom Pune

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
Or Indian fuel is so bad?
As far as specifications go, BS4 is almost same as Euro 4

As per
Indian Gasoline Specification by Auto Industry in India.
and
RIS - Petrol and Diesel Standards - Options

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
There are also other advantages like better valve timing.
Of course there are many more like only a with a DOHC setup you can operate >4 valves/cylinder and it makes VVT a possibility using a system of pulleys. But these do not concern us as far as this bike is concerned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
I think those slides show how the flame spreads in each set up.
Of course it shows that. But it doesn't explain anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
Not really, as sometimes back pressure is important (for driveability?).
Bajaj already implements the back pressure using its own patented exhaustech technology on most models. Also, If I were a manufacturer, I would use mild steel/stainless steel to design the insides of an exhaust for providing back pressure instead of unnecessarily installing a CatCon(which has Platinum as one of the catalysts) to serve the same purpose.

Another example: Mitsu Pajero BS3 made 118 HP and 292 Nm from its 2.8 liter IDI engine. Back in April 2011, Mitsu launched the Pajero BS4 which made 108 HP and 260 Nm from the same 2.8 liter IDI engine.

What was the difference between the 2?
Pajero BS4 was priced 90k more
There were no changes to the interior or exterior
The BS4 variant was equipped with a catalytic converter

Last edited by antz.bin : 3rd February 2012 at 16:03.
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Old 3rd February 2012, 16:31   #116
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Default re: The All New Bajaj Pulsar 200NS Unveiled! Update: Rs 84,096- ex showroom Pune

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheel View Post
It isn't Zig wheels, it is Mr. ADJ. I can scan & mail you his experts on the humble XCD-125 & similar Motorcycles if you so wish. He gets weak in his knees with a BAL product, though almost anywhere else, I like his flair.
And I thought I was alone, having that feeling.

Anyways, wanted to share my views on this multiple plugs thing. I always had this query, ever since twin plug came in and were promoted/claimed (not sure if the correct words) to be better than single plug for "engine efficiency"(better torque and FE). And now the game has moved to three plugs.

One query, if multiple plugs are really good at improving FE and Torque (to what ever extent), why hasn't we seen it being tried out in MotoGP?

After all, every drop of fuel saved there due to better "engine efficiency" will result in them either running the bike lighter or have more fuel to burn to make more power.
Same way, any gains in torque, will be appreciated there, ins't it?

Yes, multiple plugs could help in reducing emissions but I have seen that happening with a better ignition as well, and still using a single plug.
Multiple plugs in big combustion chambers might be beneficial but then we are taking about small sized chambers here.
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Old 3rd February 2012, 16:54   #117
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Default re: The All New Bajaj Pulsar 200NS Unveiled! Update: Rs 84,096- ex showroom Pune

Quote:
Originally Posted by antz.bin View Post


Bajaj already implements the back pressure using its own patented exhaustech technology on most models. Also, If I were a manufacturer, I would use mild steel/stainless steel to design the insides of an exhaust for providing back pressure instead of unnecessarily installing a CatCon(which has Platinum as one of the catalysts) to serve the same purpose.

Another example: Mitsu Pajero BS3 made 118 HP and 292 Nm from its 2.8 liter IDI engine. Back in April 2011, Mitsu launched the Pajero BS4 which made 108 HP and 260 Nm from the same 2.8 liter IDI engine.

What was the difference between the 2?
Pajero BS4 was priced 90k more
There were no changes to the interior or exterior
The BS4 variant was equipped with a catalytic converter

Same with Baleno IIRC but if you are sure a design using mild steel etc can help avoid catcon why dont all manufacturers do so?
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Old 3rd February 2012, 17:22   #118
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Default re: The All New Bajaj Pulsar 200NS Unveiled! Update: Rs 84,096- ex showroom Pune

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkdas View Post
Same with Baleno IIRC but if you are sure a design using mild steel etc can help avoid catcon why dont all manufacturers do so?
A design using mild steel / stainless steel will only help in the back pressure bit. For tailpipe, emissions control (the real purpose of a catcon), steel will be useless.

IPO INDIA - IPIRS

As per this BAL patent, they use Stainless steel. This particular one is for the one that is used on the current P150/P180.

Quote:
A silencer (2) comprising a body having a visible outer surface (12) and an inner surface wherein the body comprises a ferrous alloy, having a higher corrosion resistance to vehicle exhaust gases than mild steel, as a base material, and at least the outer surface (12) is electroplated. Where the ferrous alloy is stainless steel, there is good corrosion resistance as compared with mild steel silencers and the external coating also provides good corrosion resistance and aesthetic appearance.
Off Topic: Look what I found!!

BAL Patent for Variable Valve Timing Assembly for a 4-Stroke Internal Combustion engine

I wonder where they will use it.

@Navendu Thats what I am saying, the 3 plugs are there JUST to clear the emissions using cheaper equipment.

Last edited by antz.bin : 3rd February 2012 at 17:28.
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Old 3rd February 2012, 21:31   #119
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Default re: The All New Bajaj Pulsar 200NS Unveiled! Update: Rs 84,096- ex showroom Pune

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeluM View Post
Got a bit of info from the document linked here. It basically states that a spark of greater length promotes more even burning, and relatively more consistent flame front resulting in a cleaner burn:
Where? Pretty standard document actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antz.bin View Post
Why do you want me to go all the way to Desmo when the machine in question here doesn't even have DOHC? Could we keep that one for a relevant machine or move it to a dedicated technical discussion thread? Frankly I had no clue what this was till about 10 minutes back. Actually speaking, I still have no clue.
Within the technical focus of this thread, desmo is, as I said, OT.
But if we were to play a word/ thought association game, and I said 'desmo', what would you think/ say.
And now if I say 'DTSI' ?



Quote:
Originally Posted by antz.bin View Post
As for the Carb Vs Fi Query, I have no idea what kind of carbs are used for what application.
....
If carbs were so bloody efficient in clearing emission norms, what was even the need to add costs to entry level cars like the M800/Alto/Nano where a price difference of a few thousands is enough for people to consider switching loyalties.
My comment was in answer to other comments on the carbs inability to handle certain rpms and capacities, and thus FI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
Not really, as sometimes back pressure is important (for driveability?).
Back pressure is something we learn to live with. Like death and taxes.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 3rd February 2012, 21:38   #120
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Default re: The All New Bajaj Pulsar 200NS Unveiled! Update: Rs 84,096- ex showroom Pune

Correct or wrong , the sales figures puts them right . That's where everything stops .
DTSI with twin sparks was/is a definite step above the single plug version that came early ,more torque,more power and better reliability and emissions.

If you have one pulg ,you will have one coil . What if either one of it goes wrong ? . With twin or triple , reliability is fool proof .
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